USB-C charging law in the EU.

[Siwastaja]

There's some suggestion that the reason the 'standard' laptop charging voltage is 19V is because in the EU anything higher falls into a different electrical safety classification so it could also be the reason power tools over in Europe are marketed at 18V

What a nonsense. First of all many power tools are marketed as 20V here in EU. Secondly, such marketing has zero impact on compliance to safety regulations.

It could well be complete nonsense and obviously marketing doesn't determine compliance with any standard, it was just musing on something I'd heard, as I said in reply to ebastler, from a non authorative source which is why I said "some suggestion" rather than asserting it as fact and that it was something I was intending to look into.

Indeed completely made-up nonsense. It pays off to tune your bullshit detector; certain people mostly spew bullshit like this, and the quicker you learn to recognize these people, the quicker you stop spreading their made-up stuff or at least always verify what they say.

SELV limit in EU is much higher than that, 19V just happens to be convenient voltage for laptops charging their 4s li-ion packs (16.8V max charge voltage) using a buck converter with enough leeway for voltage regulation. You also see 18V and 20V power supplies and they usually all work interchargeably as long as the connector is right and the thing doesn't use some more complicated handshake stuff.

[wraper]

Looking more into this, apparently everyone who markets as 20V does not actually say it's 20V. Lidl (Parkside) calls it X20V_TEAM, Scheppach calls it 20VPRO SERIES, WORX - 20V max power module, etc. So I'm pretty sure it's about some laws against false advertising which are much stricter in EU than in US.

[ebastler]

There's some suggestion that the reason the 'standard' laptop charging voltage is 19V is because in the EU anything higher falls into a different electrical safety classification

Reference please? 

It's a new one on me as I only heard it 'in passing' last week or the week before and I don't have any firm references yet (it's on the 'must look into' list) which is why I wrote 'some suggestion' rather than asserting it as fact.

I am not aware of any further voltage thresholds for safety classification below the SELV/PELV limits.

[AVGresponding]

There's some suggestion that the reason the 'standard' laptop charging voltage is 19V is because in the EU anything higher falls into a different electrical safety classification

Reference please? 

It's a new one on me as I only heard it 'in passing' last week or the week before and I don't have any firm references yet (it's on the 'must look into' list) which is why I wrote 'some suggestion' rather than asserting it as fact.

I am not aware of any further voltage thresholds for safety classification below the SELV/PELV limits.

There are qualifications within those, for certain conditions. I'll look it up for specifics when I get home from work, if no-one else posts it in the mean time.

[AVGresponding]

Any modern real power tool with a fast charger. Personal example would be my DeWalt fast charger that does an 18V 5.0Ah battery in 20 minutes. Then there's the DeWalt FlexVolt, not sure what the charge power is on those but it's going to be more than 240W. Pretty sure all the main manufacturers have a fast charger for their pro/pro-sumer grade tools.

The highest current Dewalt charger have is the XR12A, that's 12 Amps at 18V which can charge a 9AH battery in 45 minutes so that would seem roughly analogous to your 5AH battery in 20 mins.

However, a quick cig packet calculation will tell you that 12 amps at 18V is 216W and, if you actually read the spec sheet of the charger,  it only charges to 80% in that 45/20 minutes, a full charge will take a lot longer.

For your reference and to help you not look silly in future, the power formula:

P=VI

So that you don't look silly, maybe you should consider the full voltage required, not the nominal voltage. Due to reverse protection etc etc this is on the order of 21.3 volts. 21.3x12=255.6

Though I will concede my charger does a 2.0Ah battery in 20 minutes, not a 5.0, that takes over an hour... d'Oh!     

Still makes no difference to the fact that usb-c is far too fragile to be of any use on a building site.

Mea culpa, yes, you're correct but that 15W won't make significant difference to charge time, I doubt there's any builder in the land who'd be bothered by an extra minute or so of cig/brew/butty time while their batteries charge..

The connector though, yeah, perfectly adequate for laptops, mobile phones etc.

A building site, nah, you're spot on, it's way too fragile for a building site.

Was there ever any credible suggestion that it might be forced into use though?

NiHaoMike suggested it, only they can answer the question of how serious they were.

As someone else posted, we don't sit around drinking tea while we wait for batteries to charge, we swap for a full one and carry on working. I'm quite lightweight, only two 5.0Ah and two 2.0Ah in my toolbox; some I know have 10 or more 4.0Ah! (bloody wood-butchers, any excuse to have a toolbox big enough to sit on)

[tszaboo]

But power tools are absolutely not in the scope of this directive as a few have already pointed out, why would you keep bringing that up?

They aren't but I wish they were. Instead of having a lot of bulky charging docks that are brand specific, having the charging circuit in the tool would be perfect. Think of the benefits, of having them charged on site from a powerbank for example, only with a Type-C cable. Or better still, having a button which can turn the input into an output to charge a phone from the battery bank. I think power tools should be the next regulatory target, because that's also a market which is way too unregulated.
For example the difference between a Bosch and a Dremel battery is a little piece of plastic to lock out using one battery in another tool. If you cut it off it works perfectly. I see no reason to have 10 different design battery pack with 3 cells that are only used for vendor-lock-in.

[wraper]

But power tools are absolutely not in the scope of this directive as a few have already pointed out, why would you keep bringing that up?

They aren't but I wish they were. Instead of having a lot of bulky charging docks that are brand specific, having the charging circuit in the tool would be perfect. Think of the benefits, of having them charged on site from a powerbank for example, only with a Type-C cable. Or better still, having a button which can turn the input into an output to charge a phone from the battery bank. I think power tools should be the next regulatory target, because that's also a market which is way too unregulated.

Charging port in real professional power tools would be nearly useless. There are swappable batteries for a good reason. You discharge one, put in a charger, grab next battery and continue working, and so on. Discharging can be as fast as 5 minutes for high power tools. There are chargers that can charge 4 or even more batteries at once. Also batteries are compatible between many different tools in certain product line, so you can use them for tools that are needed at particular moment.

For example the difference between a Bosch and a Dremel battery is a little piece of plastic to lock out using one battery in another tool. If you cut it off it works perfectly. I see no reason to have 10 different design battery pack with 3 cells that are only used for vendor-lock-in.

I don't know about actual difference between those but Dremel batteries could easily use cells with lower discharge/charge rate due to lower power requirement than many Bosch tools that use similar 12V battery and up 3x slower charging compared with Bosch fast charger. When charging to 80% difference would be even larger as 1.5Ah Bosch takes 16 minutes to 80%.

[magic]

Internal charging is absolutely idiotic, as above. Furthermore, it would have the side effect of causing vendors to supply tools without external chargers, which makes it doubly idiotic. Hmm, maybe EU is already working on this...

USB-C on a construction site is another idiocy. Look at what sort of connectors those tools actually use

A multi-vendor standard line of batteries would be the right step, but I doubt it's happening.

[wraper]

USB-C on a construction site is another idiocy. Look at what sort of connectors those tools actually use

Yes, you don't want concrete or steel dust and shavings anywhere near small connectors with tiny pins and clearance.

[Siwastaja]

Charging port in real professional power tools would be nearly useless. There are swappable batteries for a good reason. You discharge one, put in a charger, grab next battery and continue working, and so on. Discharging can be as fast as 5 minutes for high power tools. There are chargers that can charge 4 or even more batteries at once. Also batteries are compatible between many different tools in certain product line, so you can use them for tools that are needed at particular moment.

And these dedicated chargers are big for a reason: for example, they have cooling fans! After 5 minute (~10C) discharge, something which cells can't continuously handle for more than one half-cycle, cells are at maximum temperature (like 60-70degC) but not beyond it only thanks to their thermal mass. Then you put the pack in charger, and the cooling fan allows the charger to commence quick charging. This fan cooling allows not only for the dissipation due to charging current, but also removes the heat stored in the thermal mass of the cells, so that after maybe 20-30 minutes of fast charging, the pack is ready to be discharged in 5 minutes again. And with just 2-3 swappable battery packs, you can have nearly 100% duty cycle.

It would be impractical to continuously cool the cells in the power tool itself as it needs to be hand-held (and is operated in even dustier conditions than the charger), so obviously no cooling fan there.

For cheap chinesium tools for light-weight home use, fixed batteries within the tool, and USB-C port, under a plastic cap for dust protection, is not that bad of an idea. Nowadays it seems that every crap tool series have their own swappable battery system, yet people only buy that one tool, and the next year they need something different and get a different chinesium brand, and never a second battery for either, so swappable batteries and separate chargers only increase the cost and amount of e-waste. Such single-use cheap tools could as well use a fixed battery - and then, choice of USB-C is obvious e-waste reduction as no separate charger needs to be packaged.

[wraper]

Nowadays it seems that every crap tool series have their own swappable battery system, yet people only buy that one tool, and the next year they need something different and get a different chinesium brand, and never a second battery for either, so swappable batteries and separate chargers only increase the cost and amount of e-waste. Such single-use cheap tools could as well use a fixed battery - and then, choice of USB-C is obvious e-waste reduction as no separate charger needs to be packaged.

When I bought battery powered tools for my garden I extensively researched availability and pricing of devices that I will likely buy in future that are locked in to particular battery systems. Now I have 4 devices, 3 batteries and 2 chargers that fit them all and likely will buy one another compatible device. Buying all those separately with comparable runtime available would be like 2.5x the cost. Even if going Chinesium it still would be more expensive.
EDIT: BTW Chinesium tools often clone battery system from some reputable manufacturer.

[mikeselectricstuff]

There's some suggestion that the reason the 'standard' laptop charging voltage is 19V is because in the EU anything higher falls into a different electrical safety classification

Reference please? 

Laptops have used around 19V for at least a couple of decades, since they have been using lithium cells
The only safety classification is SELV, which from memory is below 60VDC.

[NiHaoMike]

Charging port in real professional power tools would be nearly useless. There are swappable batteries for a good reason. You discharge one, put in a charger, grab next battery and continue working, and so on. Discharging can be as fast as 5 minutes for high power tools. There are chargers that can charge 4 or even more batteries at once. Also batteries are compatible between many different tools in certain product line, so you can use them for tools that are needed at particular moment.

Dyson had the right idea, their batteries have built in charge ports. You could plug in the charger with the battery still installed on the tool, or you can take out the battery and charge it on its own. It would be a lot better if they made it all standard instead of being proprietary...

Internal charging is absolutely idiotic, as above. Furthermore, it would have the side effect of causing vendors to supply tools without external chargers, which makes it doubly idiotic.

A lot of tools are already available without the batteries or charger included, as well as many with only the batteries supplied. Some users already have the batteries and/or charger, that means they have the choice of not paying extra for those.

And these dedicated chargers are big for a reason: for example, they have cooling fans! After 5 minute (~10C) discharge, something which cells can't continuously handle for more than one half-cycle, cells are at maximum temperature (like 60-70degC) but not beyond it only thanks to their thermal mass. Then you put the pack in charger, and the cooling fan allows the charger to commence quick charging. This fan cooling allows not only for the dissipation due to charging current, but also removes the heat stored in the thermal mass of the cells, so that after maybe 20-30 minutes of fast charging, the pack is ready to be discharged in 5 minutes again. And with just 2-3 swappable battery packs, you can have nearly 100% duty cycle.

The charger for my cordless mower has a fan, but only to cool the charger itself. I had modded the charger to halve its output current, at stock it charges at about 1C rate and the pack gets a little warm when finished. Would be nice if it had a switch to allow the user to select how fast they want it to charge and what charge level to stop at, but the manufacturer wouldn't want to prolong the service life of the batteries...

[tszaboo]

But power tools are absolutely not in the scope of this directive as a few have already pointed out, why would you keep bringing that up?

They aren't but I wish they were. Instead of having a lot of bulky charging docks that are brand specific, having the charging circuit in the tool would be perfect. Think of the benefits, of having them charged on site from a powerbank for example, only with a Type-C cable. Or better still, having a button which can turn the input into an output to charge a phone from the battery bank. I think power tools should be the next regulatory target, because that's also a market which is way too unregulated.

Charging port in real professional power tools would be nearly useless. There are swappable batteries for a good reason. You discharge one, put in a charger, grab next battery and continue working, and so on. Discharging can be as fast as 5 minutes for high power tools. There are chargers that can charge 4 or even more batteries at once. Also batteries are compatible between many different tools in certain product line, so you can use them for tools that are needed at particular moment.

For example the difference between a Bosch and a Dremel battery is a little piece of plastic to lock out using one battery in another tool. If you cut it off it works perfectly. I see no reason to have 10 different design battery pack with 3 cells that are only used for vendor-lock-in.

I don't know about actual difference between those but Dremel batteries could easily use cells with lower discharge/charge rate due to lower power requirement than many Bosch tools that use similar 12V battery and up 3x slower charging compared with Bosch fast charger. When charging to 80% difference would be even larger as 1.5Ah Bosch takes 16 minutes to 80%.

You place the charging circuit into the battery pack.

USB-C on a construction site is another idiocy. Look at what sort of connectors those tools actually use

Yes, you don't want concrete or steel dust and shavings anywhere near small connectors with tiny pins and clearance.

So rubber dust cap? This is not rocket science.

For cheap chinesium tools for light-weight home use, fixed batteries within the tool, and USB-C port, under a plastic cap for dust protection, is not that bad of an idea. Nowadays it seems that every crap tool series have their own swappable battery system, yet people only buy that one tool, and the next year they need something different and get a different chinesium brand, and never a second battery for either, so swappable batteries and separate chargers only increase the cost and amount of e-waste. Such single-use cheap tools could as well use a fixed battery - and then, choice of USB-C is obvious e-waste reduction as no separate charger needs to be packaged.

Not even just that, but all the Bosch, Gardena, PowerX and other brand powertools that get used 1x a year or a few times when you are renovating. They could easily use the same battery pack. And it doesn't have to be the same way for concrete impact drivers.

[wraper]

So rubber dust cap? This is not rocket science.

They are often forgotten to be plugged or are plugged incompletely and likely will be ripped off in a few days on building site. Also then you need to put a plug on charger as well.

[wraper]

Not even just that, but all the Bosch, Gardena, PowerX and other brand powertools that get used 1x a year or a few times when you are renovating. They could easily use the same battery pack. And it doesn't have to be the same way for concrete impact drivers.

https://www.bosch-presse.de/pressportal/de/en/save-money-space-and-time-with-one-battery-for-many-brands-215504.html

[Monkeh]

You place the charging circuit into the battery pack.

Yes, let's duplicate the 48V input step down converter across every pack. Some people have dozens. Yay, we're saving the planet!

Consumer toys little more capable than your wrist might benefit. Serious power tools need not apply.

[tom66]

Not even just that, but all the Bosch, Gardena, PowerX and other brand powertools that get used 1x a year or a few times when you are renovating. They could easily use the same battery pack. And it doesn't have to be the same way for concrete impact drivers.

https://www.bosch-presse.de/pressportal/de/en/save-money-space-and-time-with-one-battery-for-many-brands-215504.html

The problem is that group only includes one manufacturer of power tools.  Every other manufacturer in that alliance is a garden tools manufacturer or makes one or two specialist tools.   Why is there no Makita, Ryobi, DeWalt...?  Probably because Bosch does not want to share the market with them.

[Siwastaja]

The problem is that group only includes one manufacturer of power tools.  Why is there no Makita, Ryobi, DeWalt...?  Probably because Bosch does not want to share the market with them.

This is what always happens: manufacturers do not want interoperability until they are forced to by legislators. On the other hand, allowing non-compatible products allows innovations, so it's a trade-off.

Some "industry standard" often appears, and in case of power tool battery systems that would be Makita LXT which is probably the only battery form factor widely copied by many different competitors, mostly Chinesium of course. I haven't seen any other power tool battery standard copied like that, so that you widely get not just replacement batteries and chargers, but complete power tools of their own designs from different manufacturers than the original one.

And I'm sure that if that happened to Robert Bosch or any other German "manufacturer", they would do their best to shut down their compatible competitors by DRM and whatever; Makita probably understands that being an industry standard is a good thing for their business.

[Veteran68]

I'm a big fan of USB-C for many use cases, certainly for portable device charging. I was never so happy to get mine and the wife's iPhone 15's so that we can ditch Lightening. Our iPads were already USB-C. Our AirPods Pro cases charge wirelessly. The only thing I have left that uses Lightning are our AppleTV remotes, and I keep some cables around for guests to cover that. They only need charging every few months.

I do agree that it would be misguided for larger power tools.

Years ago I bought into the DeWalt 20V scheme. Haven't taken an inventory recently but have a least a dozen tools, and at least that many batteries.

Some "industry standard" often appears, and in case of power tool battery systems that would be Makita LXT which is probably the only battery form factor widely copied by many different competitors, mostly Chinesium of course. I haven't seen any other power tool battery standard copied like that, so that you widely get not just replacement batteries and chargers, but complete power tools of their own designs from different manufacturers than the original one.

You can buy knockoff DeWalt 20V batteries. I have a couple of 6.0Ah batteries that realistically are closer to genuine DeWalt 4.0Ah in runtime, but they otherwise work great, and two of them were cheaper than a single DeWalt 5.0Ah battery. But the rest of my batteries are genuine DeWalt. I've got so many batteries now that I try to buy the tool-only versions. I also have a drawer full of DeWalt chargers that I don't need, as I already have 3 charging bays online at all times (1x dual charger + 1x single).

[AVGresponding]

SELV limit in EU is much higher than that, 19V just happens to be convenient voltage for laptops charging their 4s li-ion packs (16.8V max charge voltage) using a buck converter with enough leeway for voltage regulation. You also see 18V and 20V power supplies and they usually all work interchargeably as long as the connector is right and the thing doesn't use some more complicated handshake stuff.

Laptops have used around 19V for at least a couple of decades, since they have been using lithium cells
The only safety classification is SELV, which from memory is below 60VDC.

It's 50VAC or 120VDC, with exceptions. This is derated to 25VAC and 60VDC if basic protection (insulation or barriers/enclosures) is omitted, and further derated to 12VAC and 30VDC if direct contact with water is expected. The DCV ratings are for ripple free supplies; if you have a non-smoothed one you'd have to ensure the peaks didn't exceed the mentioned limits to comply.

[tooki]

A multi-vendor standard line of batteries would be the right step, but I doubt it's happening.

Like this one that’s been around for years?

https://www.cordless-alliance-system.com/

[magic]

A multi-vendor standard line of batteries would be the right step, but I doubt it's happening.

Like this one that’s been around for years?

https://www.cordless-alliance-system.com/

Not one but two, if not more

https://www.bosch-presse.de/pressportal/de/en/save-money-space-and-time-with-one-battery-for-many-brands-215504.html

[tszaboo]

You place the charging circuit into the battery pack.

Yes, let's duplicate the 48V input step down converter across every pack. Some people have dozens. Yay, we're saving the planet!

Consumer toys little more capable than your wrist might benefit. Serious power tools need not apply.

Sure, because a single SO8 charger is such a burden, especially that you need an inductor and maybe a couple tens of microfarad of capacitors with it. So your reasoning that his much circuit

in a battery pack is more environmentally harmful than this:

Which you throw out when the battery pack is not working anymore. Together with the power tool. Because 10 years from now you cannot get a replacement battery because the brand is using a slightly different battery, that's not compatible anymore.
I'm sorry, but I don't like bullshit, just say that you don't like the idea because it's different from what you are used to, and you refuse to change.

[Simon]

NB: You septics call 18V Li-ion batteries 20V, for some reason.

Manufacturers call them so to begin with  . It depends on what voltage you take, nominal or fully charged. Also if we start nitpicking, septics do not talk, they collect excrements.

No, it's an American thing, Bigger is better, our American group MD believes this bullshit. Dewalt sell in the US and Europe, same batteries in the US are 20V and Europe 18V, standards were established for a reason.