USB-C charging law in the EU.

[Siwastaja]

Word charging port means it's used for charging. If device has no charging capability this law does not apply. Also this is a press release, look into actual document where it's explicitly said handheld videogame consoles. All the fuss over refusing to understand what it's all about.

Why look at the actual documents when you can speculate based on completely made-up assumptions until cows come home? People love spewing bullshit like this. Just like the lightbulb lifetime conspiracy stuff when lightbulbs were still relevant. Me, I never understood this thing; there are so many real problems everywhere that I can discuss that I don't need to make them up.

[AVGresponding]

Any modern real power tool with a fast charger. Personal example would be my DeWalt fast charger that does an 18V 5.0Ah battery in 20 minutes. Then there's the DeWalt FlexVolt, not sure what the charge power is on those but it's going to be more than 240W. Pretty sure all the main manufacturers have a fast charger for their pro/pro-sumer grade tools.

The highest current Dewalt charger have is the XR12A, that's 12 Amps at 18V which can charge a 9AH battery in 45 minutes so that would seem roughly analogous to your 5AH battery in 20 mins.

However, a quick cig packet calculation will tell you that 12 amps at 18V is 216W and, if you actually read the spec sheet of the charger,  it only charges to 80% in that 45/20 minutes, a full charge will take a lot longer.

For your reference and to help you not look silly in future, the power formula:

P=VI

So that you don't look silly, maybe you should consider the full voltage required, not the nominal voltage. Due to reverse protection etc etc this is on the order of 21.3 volts. 21.3x12=255.6

Though I will concede my charger does a 2.0Ah battery in 20 minutes, not a 5.0, that takes over an hour... d'Oh!     

Still makes no difference to the fact that usb-c is far too fragile to be of any use on a building site.

[Monkeh]

However, a quick cig packet calculation will tell you that 12 amps at 18V is 216W

To help you not look silly in the future, that's 216W output, at 3V below the full charge voltage. To achieve that into the cells from a USB-C supply, you'll almost certainly exceed 240W. You'll also be duplicating all the charger circuitry in the pack as well as in the dedicated chargers (which people will want to use 99% of the time, because they're vastly more rugged, secure the pack, take multiple packs..).

Power tools do not need or want USB-C ports on them.

[AVGresponding]

This is besides the point in any case, as these things are just too flimsy to survive more than a few days on any construction site I've ever worked on.

Note how I mentioned that IP65 or greater should be exempt, ruggedize it to at least that level and it wouldn't be required to have USB-C charging. That still leaves how to standardize the ones that do go that route, I suppose Qi charging would make sense for the smaller ones. For the bigger ones, some sort of standardized rugged connector would be the way to go.

Don't think I've seen any chargers or batteries with an IP rating that high, though I suppose there probably are some in specialised use cases. The requirements for ruggedness tend to be from a physical impact POV, and to some degree a tolerance for dust.

[tooki]

No, just no. The power output of usb-c isn't up to the job in any case, for the bigger batteries and the requirement for fast charging, but apart from that, keep shitty, fragile consumer crap out of my workplace, thank you very much. Also that would require impractical increases of size for batteries or tools. No.

What power tool charger you have that's greater than 240W? Only ones I can think of are the ones for cordless mowers, but that's already big enough for an IEC mains input to make sense. (And the ability to run either corded or cordless would be nice for the majority of cases where a large part of the lawn is easily within reach of an outlet using a reasonable length extension cord, but part of it is not.)

FWIW, I found this one on Hilti’s website: https://www.hilti.com/c/CLS_CORDLESS_TOOLS_7123/CLS_CORDLESS_BATT_CHARGE_7123/CLS_CORDLESS_CHARGERS_7123/r13275404

450W output power, for a single battery pack!

[Siwastaja]

So that you don't look silly, maybe you should consider the full voltage required, not the nominal voltage. Due to reverse protection etc etc this is on the order of 21.3 volts. 21.3x12=255.6

Your point is perfectly valid without going into such details you get all wrong and make yourself appear more stupid than you actually are.Having designed a few, I can confidently say that high-power chargers can not afford significant voltage drop (i.e., series diode), and also quick charging is something you can only do to a relatively empty li-ion cell, because already above 70% SoC or so the rate of lithium plating on the anode is a problem at high charging current. This is also why EVs start to throttle down fast charging from as early as 60%; your power tool charger most definitely does that, too, and the 20-minute time clearly is not from 0% to 100%.

As all high-power chargers would be efficient synchronous buck converters - something like 97% is easily achievable, and actually economically viable because wasted power means heatsinking and larger device -, output current available to empty battery pack is higher than the maximum input power cable current rating suggests.

... not by much, though; it just happens that your numbers you used trying to prove something are wrong by just that small margin - just barely. But quite obviously, if you look hard enough you will surely find a power tool which supports even higher charging current. What you are saying is obvious to everyone.

And indeed, no one is forcing USB-C on your beloved power tools, this is obvious. You creating a strawman from NiHaoMike's random remark and fighting against it is utter waste of time.

[PlainName]

the fact that usb-c is far too fragile to be of any use on a building site.

Not sure I follow how USB has to be on a building site. Rechargeable drills and the like use plug-in battery packs, don't they? And those battery packs are charged from chargers that plug into mains (or, more properly, site mains). AFAIA, 'portable' applies to the drill and not the charger or batteries, so how is USB-C mandated for them?

[wraper]

the fact that usb-c is far too fragile to be of any use on a building site.

Not sure I follow how USB has to be on a building site. Rechargeable drills and the like use plug-in battery packs, don't they? And those battery packs are charged from chargers that plug into mains (or, more properly, site mains). AFAIA, 'portable' applies to the drill and not the charger or batteries, so how is USB-C mandated for them?

Neither law has anything to do with power tools, nor they have charging port to begin will. A lot of fuss about irrelevant nonsense.

[xrunner]

Not sure I follow how USB has to be on a building site. Rechargeable drills and the like use plug-in battery packs, don't they? And those battery packs are charged from chargers that plug into mains (or, more properly, site mains). AFAIA, 'portable' applies to the drill and not the charger or batteries, so how is USB-C mandated for them?

I have a battery powered screwdriver with a removable battery. It (the battery) has a USB C charging port built into it (the battery itself). So it can be charged from from a battery bank which has USB C power delivery and not necessarily a mains powered USB C power delivery charger, good if no mains power is available.

[xrunner]

PlainName - I saw your post but you deleted it while I was writing a response ...

Why did you pick Makita tools for an example of batteries that can't be charged with USB?

Dewalt tools has an adapter that you can attach to your Dewalt battery, and it allows it to be charged via a USB C power delivery charger or battery bank. And it is also bi-directional. 

[PlainName]

Why did you pick Makita tools for an example

Just a well-known professional brand. Dewalt is another, but it didn't make it to my fingers first, that's all

[SiliconWizard]

But power tools are absolutely not in the scope of this directive as a few have already pointed out, why would you keep bringing that up?

[PlainName]

But power tools are absolutely not in the scope of this directive as a few have already pointed out, why would you keep bringing that up?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/usb-c-charging-law-in-the-eu/msg5163339/#msg5163339

[freda]

But power tools are absolutely not in the scope of this directive as a few have already pointed out, why would you keep bringing that up?

yeah but stupid knows no bounds!

look at first I was enamoured with USB-C, I mean you could seek the plug blindfolded,
I mean wow, with micro-USB you had the eye ball it, align it up, and push it in.
So what's not to like about that?
6months later the USB-C is broken! because that biscuit connector in the middle is
really really FRAGILE!

The ease of plugging it in allows you to become complacent with it, not surprising then
it broke so easily, so more e-waste.
I have never broken a micro-USB in years and years, i've got them on various rechargeable bike lamps and torches and more too, all still perfectly good.

[tom66]

Tangentially related:



Interesting video on looking at USB-C cables.  They do seem to make the error of comparing Thunderbolt USB3/DisplayPort cables to USB2 cables, but it's still a fascinating insight into how these cables are constructed.

[David Hess]

Dewalt tools has an adapter that you can attach to your Dewalt battery, and it allows it to be charged via a USB C power delivery charger or battery bank. And it is also bi-directional. 

Milwaukee has something like that for their M12 batteries.  It allows charging from USB and also operates as a USB power bank to charge other devices, but it uses USB A and micro USB instead of USB-C and PD.  Unfortunately it does not support QC so it charges slowly.

The battery life on my phone only lasts half a day if I am actually using it, so I have started carrying a tactical flashlight which also operates as a power bank.  Despite both using USB-C, neither support PD and the flashlight does not support QC.  Maybe in a few years, PD support will universal.  Hahahaha, I crack myself up.

It seems you were deep frozen in 2017, but hello again and welcome to year 2023! You know, that USB-C thing happened many years ago, and despite your warranted fears, none of that nasty stuff happened, and I have never heard anyone have any compatibility problems whatsoever with USB-C chargers and devices, which are everywhere. I'm very glad your prediction was wrong.

There is still plenty of USB-C devices (most?) which do not support PD, and even these devices are playing the authentication game.  My Samsung phone loves to complain about foreign QC chargers.

[SiliconWizard]

6months later the USB-C is broken! because that biscuit connector in the middle is
really really FRAGILE!

It's pretty much the same kind of thin internal connector that in the micro-USB variant. The fact that it's centered rather than off-center (like with the micro-USB) may slightly increase the risk of damage. Also, possibly the fact that you can plug it without really looking at it may also increase the risk of screwing it up.

Never had that happen myself, but it's possible. I didn't like much micro-USB though. It was pretty flimsy. I had a number of micro-USB connectors desoldered (the PCB-side receptables) after a while, the USB-C receptacles tend to be less prone to that. The cheap micro-USB receptacles were really, really bad. I don't think USB-C is worse than micro-USB from a reliability POV. It serves its purposes reasonably well. But I wouldn't want to see it used for just anything either, so let's hope that said EU directive doesn't widen the scope over time (like some zealots seem to be all for).

[Nusa]

NB: You septics call 18V Li-ion batteries 20V, for some reason.

That's a marketing choice made by individual brands, not a difference in technology. Both numbers can be correct, it's just that 18V is approximately the nominal voltage of the 5 cells in series, while 20V is approximately the fully charged voltage of the 5 cells in series.

One distinction is that real power tools do not have integrated batteries (except for the super cheap tools). The batteries are sold separately from the tool, and in nearly all cases are not charged while attached to the tool. The tool itself has no charging capability. Which is by design...you want to be able to swap batteries and keep on using it.

[wraper]

I had a number of micro-USB connectors desoldered (the PCB-side receptables) after a while, the USB-C receptacles tend to be less prone to that. The cheap micro-USB receptacles were really, really bad. I don't think USB-C is worse than micro-USB from a reliability POV. It serves its purposes reasonably well. But I wouldn't want to see it used for just anything either, so let's hope that said EU directive doesn't widen the scope over time (like some zealots seem to be all for).

It depends on particular connector construction. I never use ones with no TH mounting tabs for this reason. The most robust types go into PCB slot, it helps mitigate lever effect when plug is pulled up or down. Also depends on PCB pads, you should never use thermal reliefs for mounting tabs as they greatly increase the chance of PCB damage.

[CJay]

Any modern real power tool with a fast charger. Personal example would be my DeWalt fast charger that does an 18V 5.0Ah battery in 20 minutes. Then there's the DeWalt FlexVolt, not sure what the charge power is on those but it's going to be more than 240W. Pretty sure all the main manufacturers have a fast charger for their pro/pro-sumer grade tools.

The highest current Dewalt charger have is the XR12A, that's 12 Amps at 18V which can charge a 9AH battery in 45 minutes so that would seem roughly analogous to your 5AH battery in 20 mins.

However, a quick cig packet calculation will tell you that 12 amps at 18V is 216W and, if you actually read the spec sheet of the charger,  it only charges to 80% in that 45/20 minutes, a full charge will take a lot longer.

For your reference and to help you not look silly in future, the power formula:

P=VI

So that you don't look silly, maybe you should consider the full voltage required, not the nominal voltage. Due to reverse protection etc etc this is on the order of 21.3 volts. 21.3x12=255.6

Though I will concede my charger does a 2.0Ah battery in 20 minutes, not a 5.0, that takes over an hour... d'Oh!     

Still makes no difference to the fact that usb-c is far too fragile to be of any use on a building site.

Mea culpa, yes, you're correct but that 15W won't make significant difference to charge time, I doubt there's any builder in the land who'd be bothered by an extra minute or so of cig/brew/butty time while their batteries charge..

The connector though, yeah, perfectly adequate for laptops, mobile phones etc.

A building site, nah, you're spot on, it's way too fragile for a building site.

Was there ever any credible suggestion that it might be forced into use though?

[CJay]

NB: You septics call 18V Li-ion batteries 20V, for some reason.

That's a marketing choice made by individual brands, not a difference in technology. Both numbers can be correct, it's just that 18V is approximately the nominal voltage of the 5 cells in series, while 20V is approximately the fully charged voltage of the 5 cells in series.

One distinction is that real power tools do not have integrated batteries (except for the super cheap tools). The batteries are sold separately from the tool, and in nearly all cases are not charged while attached to the tool. The tool itself has no charging capability. Which is by design...you want to be able to swap batteries and keep on using it.

There's some suggestion that the reason the 'standard' laptop charging voltage is 19V is because in the EU anything higher falls into a different electrical safety classification so it could also be the reason power tools over in Europe are marketed at 18V

[ebastler]

There's some suggestion that the reason the 'standard' laptop charging voltage is 19V is because in the EU anything higher falls into a different electrical safety classification

Reference please? 

[CJay]

There's some suggestion that the reason the 'standard' laptop charging voltage is 19V is because in the EU anything higher falls into a different electrical safety classification

Reference please? 

It's a new one on me as I only heard it 'in passing' last week or the week before and I don't have any firm references yet (it's on the 'must look into' list) which is why I wrote 'some suggestion' rather than asserting it as fact.

*added*: I listen to a lot of 'stuff' whilst working, driving etc. for background noise, it might have been the latest Ham Radio Workbench podcast (hardly an authorative source on EU regs) with W1REX

[wraper]

There's some suggestion that the reason the 'standard' laptop charging voltage is 19V is because in the EU anything higher falls into a different electrical safety classification so it could also be the reason power tools over in Europe are marketed at 18V

What a nonsense. First of all many power tools are marketed as 20V here in EU. Secondly, such marketing has zero impact on compliance to safety regulations.
EDIT: Looking on this Worx pressure washer, it could be something about false advertising as they put MAX inside 20V. https://www.amazon.de/Operated-Hydroshot-WG633E-1-PowerShare-Accessories/dp/B0BV21M2TH

[CJay]

There's some suggestion that the reason the 'standard' laptop charging voltage is 19V is because in the EU anything higher falls into a different electrical safety classification so it could also be the reason power tools over in Europe are marketed at 18V

What a nonsense. First of all many power tools are marketed as 20V here in EU. Secondly, such marketing has zero impact on compliance to safety regulations.

It could well be complete nonsense and obviously marketing doesn't determine compliance with any standard, it was just musing on something I'd heard, as I said in reply to ebastler, from a non authorative source which is why I said "some suggestion" rather than asserting it as fact and that it was something I was intending to look into.