Unusual design of a free-flow hydropower station

[tggzzz]

It is becoming difficult for me to distinguish Hydro from a troll. That's troll as in  http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/t/troll.html , not the lazy journalism sense.

EDIT: an alternative is "fanatic", as in "A fanatic is one who can’t change his mind and won’t change the subject", often attributed to WinstonChurchill https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/02/01/fanatic/

[Kasper]

I know what is it.
I just asked you, maybe you meant something else, because in this topic we are talking about water, which has nothing to do with electric current and buck SMPS.

Thought maybe you were just lost?

When I learned electronics, I used analogies of fluids in pipes to wrap my head around it.  Later, I learned fluids and used my electronics knowledge to wrap my head around it.

You haven't defined what you mean by 'speed' and 'flow' so it's hard to talk fluids.  I hoped that being on EEVBLOG forum meant you are familiar with electronics and that would help you learn fluids.

Some basic equations that describe electronics also work for fluids and mechanical systems.  Boost SMPS for example are quite similar to ram pumps.  Buck SMPS are similar to dams.

Seems you have focussed solely on the topic, fluids, and not the broader picture, we are on EEVBLOG forum.

Much like how focussing on current makes it seem like a buck SMPS breaks some conservation rule, if you fail to see the broader picture: power.  It is power that is bound by a conservation rule, current can increase but power output can not be greater than power input.

[pcprogrammer]

This gives someone the false impression that I need some attention.
I repeat - I don’t need the attention of amateurs and clowns !
If you are not able to carefully read at least the essence of the topic, and you have nothing substantive to say, then it is better to pass by.

Why else are you actively pushing this on this forum then. In the end we all like attention.

But calling us amateurs and clowns make you the one who is ignorant. Sure I'm no expert in the field of hydro power, but do have a reasonable understanding of physics, and it all boils down to that.

The whole premise of the systems described is about releasing the potential energy from water be it flowing or still standing. The only way to achieve this is with a difference in height and that can only be very small in all the new so called promising structures described here, resulting in not a lot of gain over a traditional system.

But you are so convinced that these new methods are the golden ticket to a better future that your mind has been made up.

The argument that the device in the first video is only a small scale experiment to prove a point and that up scaling will definitely make it better, is in my perspective a load of garbage, because up scaling will bring other problems with friction and finding locations to even be able to apply it if it works, that it is like being on a road to nowhere.

But I will leave you be in most likely a soon to be empty space.

[Hydro]

Why else are you actively pushing this on this forum then. In the end we all like attention.

We all like attention. But not the attention of amateurs and clowns.
That's exactly what I said.

But calling us amateurs and clowns make you the one who is ignorant.

It is not calling things by their proper names that is considered ignorant, but amateurism that wants to appear significant.

I don’t call anyone in particular amateurs and clowns. I call amateurs and clowns precisely those amateurs and clowns who make statements without citing facts, documents, or calculations.
Then everyone can determine their status based on this.

You make such statements. (so determine your status yourself).
But this is no longer my problem, but more yours.

Sure I'm no expert in the field of hydro power, but do have a reasonable understanding of physics, and it all boils down to that.
..........
The argument that the device in the first video is only a small scale experiment to prove a point and that up scaling will definitely make it better, is in my perspective a load of garbage, because up scaling will bring other problems with friction and finding locations to even be able to apply it if it works, that it is like being on a road to nowhere.

If you do have a reasonable understanding of physics, then you should know perfectly well what the “critical mass” is in a nuclear reaction. So size matters.
As the size increases, other technical and engineering difficulties inevitably arise, but this in no way denies the importance of nuclear reactions and the performance of nuclear reactors and power plants.

By declaring that upscaling (no matter what) is a load of garbage, without calculations and arguments, you put yourself in the above status.

But you are so convinced that these new methods are the golden ticket to a better future that your mind has been made up.

But I will leave you in most likely a soon to be empty space.

The place will not remain empty. It will only be freed from the opinions of amateurs and clowns, and this is even for the better.
But it will never be empty.
It is viewed by a lot of people who are not amateurs and clowns, but who have nothing to say or object to the topic. They only receive information and understand it.

Again.
The “Overton window” (understanding the essence of things) does not open immediately.
If you are an inquisitive and intelligent person, then just be patient, get information, compare the facts, analyze where you need it or have doubts - do the math yourself.
The Overton Window will open and you will understand the essence.
It was the same with me

[Hydro]

1. There are definitely analogies between electric current and water flow. But they are never complete.
This is exactly the case if you haven't noticed.

When I learned electronics, I used analogies of fluids in pipes to wrap my head around it.  Later, I learned fluids and used my electronics knowledge to wrap my head around it.

You haven't defined what you mean by 'speed' and 'flow' so it's hard to talk fluids.  I hoped that being on EEVBLOG forum meant you are familiar with electronics and that would help you learn fluids.

Some basic equations that describe electronics also work for fluids and mechanical systems.  Boost SMPS for example are quite similar to ram pumps.  Buck SMPS are similar to dams.

Seems you have focussed solely on the topic, fluids, and not the broader picture, we are on EEVBLOG forum.

Much like how focussing on current makes it seem like a buck SMPS breaks some conservation rule, if you fail to see the broader picture: power.  It is power that is bound by a conservation rule, current can increase but power output can not be greater than power input.

Fine.
Let's do this.
I will now give you a dozen analogies between hydrodynamics and electrical engineering.
And then I will give you the terms of hydrodynamics and you yourself will have to find analogies for them.
When you'll say that you cannot do this, I will explain to you why.

So.

Direct current = fluid flow in a pipe
Alternating current - there are no analogies in hydrodynamics
Active power - flow power
Reactive power - there are no analogies in hydrodynamics
current =  flow rate in the pipe
voltage = static pressure, dam height, pump pressure
Kirchhoff's circuit laws (in a particular case - Ohm's Law) = Bernoulli's Equation
wire thickness = pipe cross-section
resistance = pipe wall roughness
electric motor = hydraulic turbine
electric generator = water pump
electric arc = water hammer
upd.......
inductor - long pipe
battery, capacitor - reservoir, tank, dam


Now you....

gravity flow, free water
Turbulent
laminar
critical flow
subcritical flow
law of continuity of flow.
channel depth/width (note - they are by no means equivalent)
flow speed (this is not flow rate)
Reynolds number
Froud number
Prandtl number
gravity acceleration
hydraulic jump

[Kasper]

That's neat, even though I didn't ask and I don't agree with it all, I appreciate your efforts.

[Hydro]

That's neat, even though I didn't ask and I don't agree with it all, I appreciate your efforts.

Yes, no effort, just offhand. Maybe somewhere is inaccurate.
I forgot to insert the inductor and capacitor.
I'll correct it.

And where you saw an inaccuracy, please correct it too. It will be useful. -  if not to us, but to someone else.
Thank you.

And I will explain why there are no analogies in electricity for the lower terms.
The fact is that there are analogies for pressure flow in a pipe.
There are no analogies for a gravity (free) flow (except perhaps with magnetism, but this is not certain).
And that is precisely what we are considering here.

[Andy Chee]

The “Overton window” (understanding the essence of things) does not open immediately.

Overton window is a psychological phenomena, not a technique for acquiring and understanding scientific and/or engineering knowledge.

Moon landing conspiracists, perpetual motion, free energy, and HHO experimenters, attempt to use the same psychological strategy to promote their so-called scientific analysis to mainstream.  In reality, their logic is flawed.

[Hydro]

Overton window is a psychological phenomena, not a technique for acquiring and understanding scientific and/or engineering knowledge.

But how did I write it?
Maybe your English is bad? Or vision problems?
I repeat.
This is - “a technique for acquiring and understanding scientific and/or engineering knowledge”:

If you are an inquisitive and intelligent person, then just be patient, get information, compare the facts, analyze where you need it or have doubts - do the math yourself.

But this is “a psychological phenomena”

The Overton Window will open and you will understand the essence.
It was the same with me

Read it again. Very often it helps.

Moon landing conspiracists, perpetual motion, free energy, and HHO experimenters,

What are you doing here then?
Go there, they need clowns there.

[eutectique]

Maybe your English is bad? Or vision problems?
Read it again. Very often it helps.
What are you doing here then?
Go there, they need clowns there.

Relax. We are tired of your rant.

[Hydro]

So are you reading everything?
I am very happy !
Interesting ?
And I thought you had already left to post photos of cats.

But since you’re reading, tell me, what are your objections to the essence ?

Do you know what the difference is between us?
You read my topic, but I don’t read yours. I don’t even know if you opened any topics here.

[xrunner]

Fine.
Let's do this.
I will now give you a dozen analogies between hydrodynamics and electrical engineering.
And then I will give you the terms of hydrodynamics and you yourself will have to find analogies for them.
When you'll say that you cannot do this, I will explain to you why.

So.
...

Alternating current - there are no analogies in hydrodynamics

...

AC current water analogy

[soldar]

AC current water analogy

And for AC a capacitor is an elastic membrane and an inductance is a length of tubing. Works well.

[eutectique]

And I thought you had already left to post photos of cats.
Do you know what the difference is between us?
You read my topic, but I don’t read yours. I don’t even know if you opened any topics here.

T.M.I. episode of South Park springs to mind. Have you seen it? We have.

[Hydro]

Fine.
Let's do this.
I will now give you a dozen analogies between hydrodynamics and electrical engineering.
And then I will give you the terms of hydrodynamics and you yourself will have to find analogies for them.
When you'll say that you cannot do this, I will explain to you why.

So.
...

Alternating current - there are no analogies in hydrodynamics

...

AC current water analogy

Well.
Impractical, but yes, why not.
It remains to find an analogue of reactive power.

[Hydro]

Moon landing conspiracists, perpetual motion, free energy, and HHO experimenters,

To consolidate the material covered, I will again put here the conclusions of a professor at the University of Michigan.
So that someone with a sick imagination does not have seditious thoughts that these are Moon landing conspiracists, perpetual motion or free energy.

I myself understand not everything in this math, but I can’t object to anything, because I’m trying not to look like an amateur.




 

[Hydro]

Feel free to continue your pointless spam posting of this technology, but no-one on this forum will give you any money.

So, what did you want to say by talking about money?
What can I earn from this?
How ? Tell me please.

[ebastler]

Feel free to continue your pointless spam posting of this technology, but no-one on this forum will give you any money.

So, what did you want to say by talking about money?
What can I earn from this?
How ? Tell me please.

Could you please stop stirring the pot? If you feel like it, keep posting about the benefits of dam-less hydropower until the cows come home. But if others don't want to engage in pointless discussions with you anymore, please leave them alone, rather than trying to stoke up controversy.

If there is not enough quarreling in your life, why don't you go out for a walk and kick some people in the shin? 

[PlainName]

I myself understand not everything in this math, but I can’t object to anything, because I’m trying not to look like an amateur.

If you don't understand it, how do you know what it's saying? It could be complete bollocks so far as you know, but you're treating it as if it were gospel.

And.. if you you're trying not to look like an amateur then you're trying to appear as an expert or professional. Yet you say you don't understand the stuff which does actually imply you are indeed an amateur (of what you haven't specified).

I will again put here the conclusions of a professor at the University of Michigan

Why? I mean, all you're doing is spacing out actual content with repeated stuff that the reader is just going to skip. You've already posted it all, and either the reader bought it then or they didn't, but shoving it in their face again and again isn't going to make any difference.

And, again, you post it as if it's a holy scripture, yet you don't understand what it's saying. Isn't that what religion looks like?

[Hydro]

Feel free to continue your pointless spam posting of this technology, but no-one on this forum will give you any money.

So, what did you want to say by talking about money?
What can I earn from this?
How? Tell me please.

Could you please stop stirring the pot?

Why shouldn't I do this?
Is this forbidden by anyone?
This is what the forum was created for. Constantly “stirring” something, initiating questions, getting answers, more questions... etc

The dude blurted out something off-topic. I didn't understand what it was about.
I asked him - what did he mean?
He is silent. I thought that he left, but he is here, I see him.
I thought that he had forgotten about my question, so I reminded him of it.
If he doesn't answer, he probably doesn't know the answer. Or he knows, but is silent.
You have entered into the dialogue, and I assume that you know. But you don't answer it either.
Okay. Even better.
I will understand this in such a way that I myself will have to look for the answer.
And further on this issue there is no longer any need to “stirring the pot”.

If you feel like it, keep posting about the benefits of dam-less hydropower until the cows come home. But if others don't want to engage in pointless discussions with you anymore, please leave them alone, rather than trying to stoke up controversy.

I repeat for the hundredth time - I don’t drag here anyone with a lasso and I don’t pull anyone’s tongue.
Whoever wants to speaks out.
But after that, be kind enough to answer for the words spoken.

If there is not enough quarreling in your life, why don't you go out for a walk and kick some people in the shin?

If there is not enough quarreling in my life, I don't think it's a problem.
But it would never even have occurred to me that this “problem” could be solved in this way.
Is that the only difference between us?

[ebastler]

Don't play dumb, dear. To go for a walk to kick people in the shin was not a literal suggestion but an allegory for the behaviour you show here all the time. You know that. And I know that, which is why I will continue my walk on some other path.

[Hydro]

I myself understand not everything in this math, but I can’t object to anything, because I’m trying not to look like an amateur.

If you don't understand it, how do you know what it's saying? It could be complete bollocks so far as you know, but you're treating it as if it were gospel.

You also don't read carefully.
I didn’t say that I don’t understand, I said that understand not everything and I wanted to draw the attention of people who understand (if they are watching this).
For example, I don’t quite understand what “non-hydrodynamic energy” means in the text.
If anyone sees an error in these equations, please tell me about it. But no one talks about mistakes. It looks like they don't exist. So we'll accept it for now.

And.. if you you're trying not to look like an amateur then you're trying to appear as an expert or professional. Yet you say you don't understand the stuff which does actually imply you are indeed an amateur (of what you haven't specified).

Yes, in this topic I am trying to look not like an amateur, but an expert. And this has already been confirmed by the development of this topic, because, as you can see, I know more than all the visitors to this topic.
But even an expert doesn’t know everything.
If you watch the film "Oppenheimer", you will see that even he did not know the answers to all the questions and was not embarrassed to tell his colleagues or consult with anyone.

I will again put here the conclusions of a professor at the University of Michigan

Why? I mean, all you're doing is spacing out actual content with repeated stuff that the reader is just going to skip. You've already posted it all, and either the reader bought it then or they didn't, but shoving it in their face again and again isn't going to make any difference.

And, again, you post it as if it's a holy scripture, yet you don't understand what it's saying. Isn't that what religion looks like?

You misunderstand the essence of the cognitive process. One of its aspects is the repetition of material. This is how physics and mathematics and literature and other sciences are studied.
Have you ever had to re-read incomprehensible passages in articles or textbooks to understand the essence more deeply?
Repetition matter. This is how the process of cognition occurs.

If you understand everything at once, then you are the best student in the class.
But don't bother others. Probably, not everyone learns the material covered so quickly and not everyone understands the lesson so quickly.
For example, this professor’s calculation was posted a long time ago, but still someone had the idiotic idea that it was “moon landing conspiracists or free energy”
This is why repetition of material is necessary for them.
I'm glad that you are not one of them.
You can just skip this part of the lesson and go to a cafe with a girl-friend.

[Hydro]

I don't think I want to jump through every hoop you hold up, and I certainly don't want to download some surprise video. Unsubscribing from this thread now.

And I know that, which is why I will continue my walk on some other path.

Good luck ! See you soon !

The place will not remain empty. It will only be freed from the opinions of amateurs and clowns, and this is even for the better.
But it will never be empty.
It is viewed by a lot of people who are not amateurs and clowns, but who have nothing to say or object to the topic. They only receive information and understand it.

[Halcyon]

EDIT: Sorry guys. Thread was locked for a short time due to a duplicate post across another thread. Spoken with the poster, and this one has been unlocked again.

[Hydro]

Thank you !