UK forum members, BREXIT?

[MK14]

Just so.

I don't know of anything that can prevent people being led to their doom, especially if the leaders really do believe they are going in the right direction. Some of the Brexit leaders did believe that.

Please, please, please ...

[bitslice]

I had asked earlier if it is as bad as whats being shown in the UK and never got an answer. I haven't been to the UK in about 24 years so all I can go by is whats in the mainstream news and independents. Both sources don't seem to picture a cheery multicultural melting pot.

Depends what you mean as bad,
a lot of these are isolated incidents and it really depends in what area you live in if you see any of this at all.

The issue is more of a slow creeping change in society that is alienating a percentage of the population.
The young don't care, they have no investment in houses and never will have, they have made no investment in the status of the UK, so don't really care if it is now shared with a million people from Africa who also have nothing invested.
The idea of Nationalism is foreign to them as they've never seen family come back from a war.

You only notice the differences if you look at census data for either religious or ethnic differences - each group lives in tight little communities, which may only be a few streets wide, but they are statistically significant.
If your entire society is stratified like this then there will be a lot of unspoken friction between groups.

Politicians declare we are a very diverse country where everyone gets along, which isn't true, everyone lives apart but shares the same job market.
Again, young people will be oblivious to slow moving demographic changes, but they stand out to older people as a negative influence.

This isn't going to turn into a race war in this decade, but if Bretix hadn't have been forced upon us, then we would have certainly had our own Breivik(s) to reflect upon.

If you visit Luton/Bradford/London/Birmingham/Leicester then they really do feel like another country. Any other city will be noticeably more diverse than it was even 10 years ago.
Overall the UK is nothing like it was 30 years ago, back then it was clearly a homogeneous white culture, now the only place that still exists is in small rural villages.

[apis]

So Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson as foreign secretary, that was a bit odd. Not so much that he has insulted people/countries, but will he have the respect of his peers? Seems to me that would be important for a top diplomat. Appears like he is being rewarded by PM May with this position. Can't really make heads or tails of this.

Newspaper Le Figaro says Mr Johnson "gives the impression of being guided by opportunism".
The newspaper says the UK's new foreign secretary's political career has seen him change his mind on gay marriage and on Turkey joining the EU.
Pierre Jova writes in the paper: "Although, he has a 'clown' image which delighted the tabloids with his antics and punchy statements, he was a comrade of David Cameron at Eton and Oxford and is a pure product of the British conservative aristocracy raised to govern."

[apis]

I was wondering why some brexiters are so upset over the perceived lack of democracy in the EU and stumbled over this:



It seems to me like you should be worried about the state of democracy in the UK instead.

Edit: grammar 

[nctnico]

Any other city will be noticeably more diverse than it was even 10 years ago.
Overall the UK is nothing like it was 30 years ago, back then it was clearly a homogeneous white culture, now the only place that still exists is in small rural villages.

You'll get used to it. If I enter a restaurant with only white Caucasian people I feel weird.

[bitslice]

You'll get used to it. If I enter a restaurant with only white Caucasian people I feel weird.

What if I don't want to get used to it?
If I wanted to experience the curious customs of another culture then I'd get on a plane, take pictures and get diarrhoea.

One of the things I used to like about the UK was a shared sense of belonging, now I don't belong anywhere - and annoyingly this major lifestyle decision was made for me by a group of people that I despise.

[MK14]

You'll get used to it. If I enter a restaurant with only white Caucasian people I feel weird.

What if I don't want to get used to it?
If I wanted to experience the curious customs of another culture then I'd get on a plane, take pictures and get diarrhoea.

One of the things I used to like about the UK was a shared sense of belonging, now I don't belong anywhere - and annoyingly this major lifestyle decision was made for me by a group of people that I despise.

We shouldn't need to have to put up with huge numbers of horrible attacks in the West, as if we were living in a time of war.

This nonsense is turning the EU into a giant Israel "like" situation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36800730

But I don't know what the perfect answer is.

I wonder to what extent, Brexit was a result of things like that ?

[MK14]

Wow that just happened. I thought you were referring to the attack at the concert. They are getting so frequent over there I can't keep track any more.

I bet if I was French and living there, I'd be furious.
It's just craziness.
They want to live by the sword, and actually go round killing people. Instead of diplomacy/democracy.
It is totally unacceptable. If we let nonsense like that carry on, it would probably end the Wests way of life, as we know it.

[apis]

I bet if I was French and living there, I'd be furious.
It's just craziness.
They want to live by the sword, and actually go round killing people. Instead of diplomacy/democracy.
It is totally unacceptable. If we let nonsense like that carry on, it would probably end the West, as we know it.

Have they identified the driver yet?
Assuming it is ISIS again. They definitely need to be stopped. Their goal is to try to create more hostility between religious groups in west, would be catastrophic if they succeed obviously. Which in turn would give them even more soldiers to their army in Syria. The solution is to crush ISIS as soon as possible! 

[MK14]

Have they identified the driver yet?
Assuming it is ISIS again. They definitely need to be stopped. Their goal is to try to create more hostility between religious groups in west, would be catastrophic if they succeed obviously. Which in turn would give them even more soldiers to their army in Syria. The solution is to crush ISIS as soon as possible! 

No. They are not saying yet, but (from my earlier link) ...

'Pretty clear' incident was terror attack - expert
Posted at
00:52
Terrorism expert Claude Moniquet say it is "pretty clear" the incident in Nice was a terror attack. He says the idea was "clearly" to wait until the end of the Euro 2016 football tournament to launch the attack.

He says there has been no official confirmation of guns or grenades being found in the truck, but if those reports prove to be true, it would indicate a "more elaborate" and "more professional" plot.

He says that if the attacker was French, his identity will already be known to authorities.

Officials have yet to confirm whether the incident was a terror attack.

[apis]

The solution is to crush ISIS as soon as possible! 

Difficult to do while adhering to the rules of war anyway, considering they would just drop their uniforms and weapons and fade into the civilian population. The only way to stop or reduce events like this is to put another dictator in charge over there, at least they keep the killing mainily to themselves. The world is not ready for open borders yet, at least some of it isn't anyway.

I think the concern of events like this escalating is one of the reasons BREXIT was successful. Assuming this was yet another islamist chicken shit attack I guess maybe their concerns were justified.

The Syrian president seems to think they can defeat ISIS within a few months. Maybe optimistic, but with help from the west it could probably be done.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/bashar-al-assad-says-u-s-not-serious-about-defeating-n609036

ISIS was created by former leader for Iraq's secret service, their goal is to retake control of Iraq. Brexit won't make a difference at all in this case. It's enough with one person and a truck to create this kind of attack. The only thing that will put an end to it is to crush ISIS once and for all.

[dannyf]

"What you and many others are failing to understand is that it’s not just ISIS, stamp out ISIS today and tomorrow will come ISIS 2.0. "

Absolutely. What we are seeing now is decades of genocide by european political leaders and suicide by some voters. It is not clear if it isn't too late, as the enemies are within. You opened your doors to wolves, you invited buchers into your house, for decades, under multiculturalism. And political correctness.

Military solutions are only a small part of the responses.

[zapta]

Any other city will be noticeably more diverse than it was even 10 years ago.
Overall the UK is nothing like it was 30 years ago, back then it was clearly a homogeneous white culture, now the only place that still exists is in small rural villages.

You'll get used to it. If I enter a restaurant with only white Caucasian people I feel weird.

It's not about skin color, it's about culture, values and the willingness to assimilate in the host culture. Some cultures are more compatible than others. Ignoring this in the name of absolute multiculturalism is naive and dangerous. Europe lost the ability and willingness to defend itself. I see similar tendencies from the political left here.

[tggzzz]

So Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson as foreign secretary, that was a bit odd. Not so much that he has insulted people/countries, but will he have the respect of his peers? Seems to me that would be important for a top diplomat. Appears like he is being rewarded by PM May with this position. Can't really make heads or tails of this.

Neither can I.

The least bad explanations that make any sense to me are that she is setting him up to fail (unlikely, since that is setting the UK up to fail), or that she is trying to keep the Tory party together (and bugger the negotiations and UK). More devious (and less likely) explanations can be invented, of course.

The most ridiculous explanation is that he is the best person to represent the UK.

[Tepe]

Western democracies aren't truly democracies anymore. The way parties can hold a majority in parliment while not getting anywhere near half the popular vote is not democracy. A prime example is the Ontario liberal crooks managed to get in with a majority of Provincial parliment seats while only getting 19% of the vote, thats absurd. They have no right to dictate policy with numbers like that.

Thank the first past the post system for that. It's a very flawed system. It mainly plagues the former British empire, though:

[tggzzz]

Western democracies aren't truly democracies anymore.

There are no Western democracies and never have been, full stop. The last democracy was ancient Athens, and they only had around ~1000 citizens who could vote (plus a lot of non-citizens).

There are many Western (and other) representative democracies.

[3db]

Just so.

I don't know of anything that can prevent people being led to their doom, especially if the leaders really do believe they are going in the right direction. Some of the Brexit leaders did believe that.

Please, please, please ...

Awesome !!   

[Galenbo]

If it is ISIS they will claim responsibilty.

"ISIS" claims responsability for every attack against Kafir that is performed according to the Koran.
Everybody can be "ISIS", it's like "hacker" group "Anonymous"

[vodka]

You'll get used to it. If I enter a restaurant with only white Caucasian people I feel weird.

What if I don't want to get used to it?
If I wanted to experience the curious customs of another culture then I'd get on a plane, take pictures and get diarrhoea.

One of the things I used to like about the UK was a shared sense of belonging, now I don't belong anywhere - and annoyingly this major lifestyle decision was made for me by a group of people that I despise.

We shouldn't need to have to put up with huge numbers of horrible attacks in the West, as if we were living in a time of war.

This nonsense is turning the EU into a giant Israel "like" situation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36800730

But I don't know what the perfect answer is.

I wonder to what extent, Brexit was a result of things like that ?

 
Please don't laugh me that is impossible that eu be become on great Israel. First, on Israel the  truck driver would have died only by disobedied the order to halt of the police

Second point, Israel would have collapsed the familiar house of terrorist and the Mossad would have launched a "Murder Selective " versus the headers and intellectuals.

And here , they never will have the valor to do that.



I wonder to what extent, Brexit was a result of things like that ?

The british haven't got the enemy on front the gates.The enemy is inside ,besides the british have bred to them

[Simon]

This thread was not meant for discussing recent attacks or ISIS, please can we stay broadly on topic and not get out of control.

[Delta]

This thread was not meant for discussing recent attacks or ISIS, please can we stay broadly on topic and not get out of control.

Good idea.

How about a new mini-poll:

When do you think Article 50 will be triggered?

This year?
Next Year?
2018?
Never?

I would like to see it done sooner rather than later, but not rushed...

[Marco]

How it can be that a majority of a population opposes increased immigration, yet we are led by people who push it. How does this happen? At first some economic interests might have been relevant, but that's no longer true. The current Islamic immigrants are not guest laborers and the flow of economically productive intra EU immigrants (non-gypsie eastern Europeans) has slowed down.

The wests demographic decline means we will have to reduce our productivity and dedicate more labor to elderly care, but even then immigration with the current quality of migrants is net negative. We end up having to care for the elderly and non contributing immigrants who destroy our competitiveness compared to economies who maintain far more selective immigration.

There are no economic reasons to allow refugees citizenship or continued immigration of economically unproductive EU migrants, there is no majority electoral support for it. Yet our politicians support it. Why? Do they really buy "there is no alternative"? I think they are mostly value signaling, I think the leadership only feel truly relevant when rubbing shoulders with the international elite and participating in international decision making. National politics and interests are beneath them and this attitude filters down the chain. They have no respect for their electorate and we little for them, I wonder which of us will destroy the other in this process first. If we have the audacity to elect Wilders with a large enough majority to make him PM I'm sure it will be hailed as "the end of democracy" or some such by the old political leadership and their media flunkies (ie. people keep making the wrong choices, so democracy is dead).

Jo Cox was really a grotesque example of all that is wrong with politics. A wonderful young women, either completely out of touch with her electorate or intentionally not representing them. Her constituency voted to leave even after her murder. Anyone who believes that wasn't because of immigration is fooling himself in my opinion.

Many in Market Place wept openly as those words were spoken, and it was difficult to imagine anyone who could have listened to that speech, and then voted to leave the European Union. But the next evening, as the polls closed, many told me they had done just that. At the Batley Conservative Club, a vast and formerly grand establishment at odds with its dwindling clientele of mostly old, white men, two members, named Darren and Stuart (they declined to offer their surnames), sat at the bar discussing how they had both voted Leave. Darren knew Jo Cox from school and said she was “a lovely lass.” But both men spoke repeatedly about how they had been let down by politicians, particularly on the issue of immigration. Their complaint did not just concern the recent migrants from the E.U. but the older Muslim residents of Batley. Darren put his wish to leave the E.U. partly down to “the change in the town and the feeling in the town. There are certain people who don’t integrate.” Stuart said that “it’s a sad thing what happened last week,” but added, “We just want our country back.” Both men expected the “Jo Cox thing” to have “skewed” the result toward Remain, but they still expected a majority in the district to have voted Leave.

[MK14]

This thread was not meant for discussing recent attacks or ISIS, please can we stay broadly on topic and not get out of control.

Good idea.

How about a new mini-poll:

When do you think Article 50 will be triggered?

This year?
Next Year?
2018?
Never?

I would like to see it done sooner rather than later, but not rushed...

Since it is part of a massive deal, for the UK/EU. I would imagine that the "article 50" stage, is an important chance for them to begin to negotiate.
In other words, even while they trigger the "article 50", they can use its imminent initiation, to get some provisional agreement(s). If not, they wait until a better agreement has been made.

Analogy:
Let's say I was going to buy an expensive scope from you. But we needed to do the transaction, formally, with lots of documentation.
So stage one, might be that I express interest in buying it, and want to know the price.
If I was cheeky, I could pre-contact you or someone in your household, and ask about an agreement to get free postage, for whatever scope we agree that I'm buying.

So what I would really be doing, is discretely starting the bargaining process.
Then I only have to worry about the scope's price. I no longer would need to worry about excessive/greedy postage/delivery charges.

Even the length of time brexit will take, may need bargaining with, before hand, since the two years, would seem to be completely unrealistic, to at least me. If not others.

[vodka]

This thread was not meant for discussing recent attacks or ISIS, please can we stay broadly on topic and not get out of control.

Good idea.

How about a new mini-poll:

When do you think Article 50 will be triggered?

This year?
Next Year?
2018?
Never?

I would like to see it done sooner rather than later, but not rushed...

Since it is part of a massive deal, for the UK/EU. I would imagine that the "article 50" stage, is an important chance for them to begin to negotiate.
In other words, even while they trigger the "article 50", they can use its imminent initiation, to get some provisional agreement(s). If not, they wait until a better agreement has been made.

Analogy:
Let's say I was going to buy an expensive scope from you. But we needed to do the transaction, formally, with lots of documentation.
So stage one, might be that I express interest in buying it, and want to know the price.
If I was cheeky, I could pre-contact you or someone in your household, and ask about an agreement to get free postage, for whatever scope we agree that I'm buying.

So what I would really be doing, is discretely starting the bargaining process.
Then I only have to worry about the scope's price. I no longer would need to worry about excessive/greedy postage/delivery charges.

Even the length of time brexit will take, may need bargaining with, before hand, since the two years, would seem to be completely unrealistic, to at least me. If not others.

Simply, it can to happen that the EU don't want negociate more and the great bussiness and  corporations get tired and they decide  offshoring.

[MK14]

Simply, it can to happen that the EU don't want negociate more and the great bussiness and  corporations get tired and they decide  offshoring.

Or other countries may also end up exiting the EU, and it is the EU itself which disappears, or becomes relatively irrelevant.

Also my apologies, I have not replied to your earlier post, since it has been requested to keep on topic.