UK forum members, BREXIT?

[Tepe]

I think other EU countries are also disappointed in the EU, for various reasons.

People: definitely. Parliaments/governments: probably not so much.

My country also has a number of opt-outs, rather like the UK but not quite the same. The electorate has rejected opting out of some some of our opt-outs in a couple of referendums (the last time was in December). Yet, there is nothing that indicates that a majority could be found in the electorate for leaving. In the parliament it for sure isn't possible at the moment. A big difference to the UK is the press. The UK press seems to have been purveyors of a quite lopsided view of the EU for many many years. Something that can't have made it more difficult for the powers that be to blame all sorts of things on Brussels. If anything, it's more the other way around here.

[tggzzz]

The USSR is a poor example since the other countries were conquered rather joined willingly.

That's true. I can't think of another comparatively recent example. There are unlikely to be any Tanks in the streets during the breakup of the EU. It is only tangentially related to my main point that once a certain level of momentum is built up the subsequent events follow naturally. The fear of the unknown is diminished.

We don't know whether the system is underdamped or overdamped "One swallow doesn't make it summer".

Fear of the unknown could be replaced by fear of the known, and powerful forces will be moving in that direction. Of course there are other powerful forces, and we don't yet know which powerful is more powerful.

Fundamentally only a fool or someone with nothing to lose takes such a critical gamble. Many of those voting felt they had nothing to lose; they will learn they were wrong, and I fear which false messiahs will catch their attention next time.

[MK14]

On the other hand, the USSR exit countries, have not necessarily done brilliantly. Depending on your viewpoint.

Yes they are relatively free, democratic and potentially capitalistic. But it is taking a very long time, for them to grow back into, "normal" countries.

E.g. The standard of life in Ukraine is not really as good as it would be in a middle of the road, EU country. From what I have heard. But if the population are happy, and enjoying things, with local produce available at affordable prices, then things are not that bad (depending on ones definition of "good").

My father, who was Latvian, only cared about getting the Russians out.

The economics of the EU, or the Eurozone in particular, are an unmitigated disaster. Brexit or no Brexit the there was always going to be a day of reckoning. You cannot have that much incestuous debt and expect anything else. Countries with completely different economies were politically shoehorned together unwisely. I can only imagine a generation of young people without a job or real hope of gaining steady employment will eventually have their voice heard.

I think some people who wanted to leave the EU, felt the same way as getting the Russians out. Although I fully accept that the "Russians" situation, was especially bad, and a completely different kettle of fish.
E.g. Not being able to easily leave the country, KGB, terrible hardships, etc etc.

I'm looking forward to the day when North Korea collapses (assuming/hoping that it does NOT involve war, that is). So that the people of North Korea can begin to get a nice/normal life. Some reports seem to imply that it is like living in a second world war concentration camp, or at least VERY dire.

The leaders of the EU, seem to think they are doing a WONDERFUL job, and they can easily take on adding more countries. However incompatible and penniless, they are. they DON'T need to ask us, the residents/voters/bill-payers, they can decide for us. What could possibly go wrong ?

[Marco]

I think some people who wanted to leave the EU, felt the same way as getting the Russians out. Although I fully accept that the "Russians" situation, was especially bad, and a completely different kettle of fish.
E.g. Not being able to easily leave the country, KGB, terrible hardships, etc etc.

Not completely different, refugee quotas and russification are pretty close.

[MK14]

I think other EU countries are also disappointed in the EU, for various reasons.

People: definitely. Parliaments/governments: probably not so much.

My country also has a number of opt-outs, rather like the UK but not quite the same. The electorate has rejected opting out of some some of our opt-outs in a couple of referendums (the last time was in December). Yet, there is nothing that indicates that a majority could be found in the electorate for leaving. In the parliament it for sure isn't possible at the moment. A big difference to the UK is the press. The UK press seems to have been purveyors of a quite lopsided view of the EU for many many years. Something that can't have made it more difficult for the powers that be to blame all sorts of things on Brussels. If anything, it's more the other way around here.

I'm very annoyed that some European countries are rumored to be hiding the TRUTH, via control of the press (newspapers), TV and maybe other sources of "news" information.
E.g. Sweden. (I'm looking at you). Probably/maybe Germany as well, and others I guess.
It is rumored in some youtube video(s), that a particular city there, has been very badly ruined by immigration, turned into a terrible crime ridden ghetto, and there are terrible sex related crimes there.

It is CRAZY that in this day and age, modern western EU countries such as Sweden, are blocking information like that, which is much more like the former USSR, China, and even North Korea.

Given that we in the EU (West) are suppose to have free/open voting. Messing about with the "REAL" information/news like that, by hiding it, etc. Is potentially causing them to vote in a different way, to the way they would vote, if they had the correct information.

Anyway I hope that your own country exiting or not the EU, turns out for the best, for everyone.

I suspect (as others have said in this thread), we (UK) are probably starting a trend (domino effect), which may see the break up of the EU.

[Marco]

The criminal statistics not distinguishing between (multiple generational) migrants and their origin is one thing.

What annoys me is the simple avoidance of simple math of the speed of Islamification and its desirability. There can be no alternative to the nationalization of Islamic refugees and Islamic foreign brides and grooms, so we simply aren't allowed to examine the consequences. If people decide halfway they really really want an alternative any way, the supposedly non existent alternatives will appear ... and be very inhumane.

[apis]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/revealed-how-the-west-set-saddam-on-the-bloody-road-to-power-1258618.html

That was at the height of the cold war. What your article fails to mention is that the current leader was propped up by the Soviet Union.  Karim was also no angel and was also communist. Even then he was making expansionist claims for Kuwait and other ME pieces of dirt. He started out fine then things rapidly detiorated as they always do there.

So at the time I’m willing to bet even your country was supportive of the CIAs mission to depose a communist ruler in the region propped up by the Soviets.

Given who the PM in Apis's country was at the time (Olof Palme), this is doubtful in the extreme

I believe Tage Erlander was PM at the time actually. Jens Otto Krag was PM in Denmark.

[tggzzz]

I think other EU countries are also disappointed in the EU, for various reasons.

People: definitely. Parliaments/governments: probably not so much.

My country also has a number of opt-outs, rather like the UK but not quite the same. The electorate has rejected opting out of some some of our opt-outs in a couple of referendums (the last time was in December). Yet, there is nothing that indicates that a majority could be found in the electorate for leaving. In the parliament it for sure isn't possible at the moment. A big difference to the UK is the press. The UK press seems to have been purveyors of a quite lopsided view of the EU for many many years. Something that can't have made it more difficult for the powers that be to blame all sorts of things on Brussels. If anything, it's more the other way around here.

I'm very annoyed that some European countries are rumored to be hiding the TRUTH, via control of the press (newspapers), TV and maybe other sources of "news" information.
E.g. Sweden. (I'm looking at you). Probably/maybe Germany as well, and others I guess.
It is rumored in some youtube video(s), that a particular city there, has been very badly ruined by immigration, turned into a terrible crime ridden ghetto, and there are terrible sex related crimes there.

It is CRAZY that in this day and age, modern western EU countries such as Sweden, are blocking information like that, which is much more like the former USSR, China, and even North Korea.

Given that we in the EU (West) are suppose to have free/open voting. Messing about with the "REAL" information/news like that, by hiding it, etc. Is potentially causing them to vote in a different way, to the way they would vote, if they had the correct information.

Anyway I hope that your own country exiting or not the EU, turns out for the best, for everyone.

I suspect (as others have said in this thread), we (UK) are probably starting a trend (domino effect), which may see the break up of the EU.

Can I suggest that when you SHOUT it is more effective if you use GREEN INK.

[Tepe]

Given who the PM in Apis's country was at the time (Olof Palme), this is doubtful in the extreme

I believe Tage Erlander was PM at the time actually. Jens Otto Krag was PM in Denmark.

You are (partly) right, of course. At the time of the 17 July Revolution in Iraq (1968), Tage Erlanger was indeed the PM. Palme had to wait till 1969. Partly, because the Danish PM at the time was Hilmar Baunsgaard 

Saddam became president in July 1979. By that time it was Ola Ullsten and Anker Jørgensen. Either way, I was wrong.

[jancumps]

I think other EU countries are also disappointed in the EU, for various reasons.

People: definitely. Parliaments/governments: probably not so much.

My country also has a number of opt-outs, rather like the UK but not quite the same. The electorate has rejected opting out of some some of our opt-outs in a couple of referendums (the last time was in December). Yet, there is nothing that indicates that a majority could be found in the electorate for leaving. In the parliament it for sure isn't possible at the moment. A big difference to the UK is the press. The UK press seems to have been purveyors of a quite lopsided view of the EU for many many years. Something that can't have made it more difficult for the powers that be to blame all sorts of things on Brussels. If anything, it's more the other way around here.

I'm very annoyed that some European countries are rumored to be hiding the TRUTH, via control of the press (newspapers), TV and maybe other sources of "news" information.
E.g. Sweden. (I'm looking at you). Probably/maybe Germany as well, and others I guess.
It is rumored in some youtube video(s), that a particular city there, has been very badly ruined by immigration, turned into a terrible crime ridden ghetto, and there are terrible sex related crimes there.

It is CRAZY that in this day and age, modern western EU countries such as Sweden, are blocking information like that, which is much more like the former USSR, China, and even North Korea.

Given that we in the EU (West) are suppose to have free/open voting. Messing about with the "REAL" information/news like that, by hiding it, etc. Is potentially causing them to vote in a different way, to the way they would vote, if they had the correct information.

Anyway I hope that your own country exiting or not the EU, turns out for the best, for everyone.

I suspect (as others have said in this thread), we (UK) are probably starting a trend (domino effect), which may see the break up of the EU.

Can I suggest that when you SHOUT it is more effective if you use GREEN INK.

And that the press is FREE over here.   (used maroon in stead of green, sorry:) )

[MK14]

Can I suggest that when you SHOUT it is more effective if you use GREEN INK.

I'm not sure if you are joking, being serious, or worryingly intelligent and referring to some EU (or UK) rules, which have changed the text shouting format, to avoid offending some members of society and/or a "nanny" state.

E.g.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2263874/Teachers-shouldnt-use-red-coloured-pens-mark-homework-like-shouting-upsets-pupils.html

[zapta]

I'm very annoyed that some European countries are rumored to be hiding the TRUTH, via control of the press (newspapers), TV and maybe other sources of "news" information.

It's similar here. Our president for example keeps denying the link between Islam and the current wave of global terrorism, and when the French president once mentioned Islamic terrorists, it was censored on the White House's web site.


 

[Tepe]

It's similar here. Our president for example keeps denying the link between Islam and the current wave of global terrorism, and when the French president once mentioned Islamic terrorists, it was censored on the White House's web site.

That's why people like Bernstein and Woodward are important.

[apis]

I think other EU countries are also disappointed in the EU, for various reasons.

People: definitely. Parliaments/governments: probably not so much.

My country also has a number of opt-outs, rather like the UK but not quite the same. The electorate has rejected opting out of some some of our opt-outs in a couple of referendums (the last time was in December). Yet, there is nothing that indicates that a majority could be found in the electorate for leaving. In the parliament it for sure isn't possible at the moment. A big difference to the UK is the press. The UK press seems to have been purveyors of a quite lopsided view of the EU for many many years. Something that can't have made it more difficult for the powers that be to blame all sorts of things on Brussels. If anything, it's more the other way around here.

I'm very annoyed that some European countries are rumored to be hiding the TRUTH, via control of the press (newspapers), TV and maybe other sources of "news" information.
E.g. Sweden. (I'm looking at you). Probably/maybe Germany as well, and others I guess.
It is rumored in some youtube video(s), that a particular city there, has been very badly ruined by immigration, turned into a terrible crime ridden ghetto, and there are terrible sex related crimes there.

It is CRAZY that in this day and age, modern western EU countries such as Sweden, are blocking information like that, which is much more like the former USSR, China, and even North Korea.

Given that we in the EU (West) are suppose to have free/open voting. Messing about with the "REAL" information/news like that, by hiding it, etc. Is potentially causing them to vote in a different way, to the way they would vote, if they had the correct information.

Anyway I hope that your own country exiting or not the EU, turns out for the best, for everyone.

I suspect (as others have said in this thread), we (UK) are probably starting a trend (domino effect), which may see the break up of the EU.

"rumored in some you-tube video(s)"
seriously, if that is the measure of "truth" these days we are all in deeper trouble than I would have imagined.

"a particular city there, has been very badly ruined by immigration, turned into a terrible crime ridden ghetto, and there are terrible sex related crimes there."
I happen to live near that city (Malmö) and know people who live there and the above description is not true at all. There are many refugees that have settled there, from former Yugoslavia and now the middle east. Sweden have had the same problem internally as EU has: the refugees choose freely where they want to live when they come here. All the refugees prefer to live as far south as possible so most of them have ended up in the most southern big city. The rich parts of the country do whatever they can to prevent refugees to come to their municipalities. But crime rates are not higher in Malmö than other cities, sex related or otherwise. It's only xenophobes and racists that would say the city is ruined because they want a racially/ethnically pure country.

[Marco]

Google for Husby, Tensta and Rinkeby. Warning this might be bad for your blood pressure.

[Marco]

It peters up as their percentage increases.

Multiculturalism works in small doses, when minorities are weak they accept the cost of non-assimilation as something they should bear themselves. When they get strong they demand the costs get socialized. The increasingly high demands on accommodation for Salat being a good example.

PS. to be honest the increasing rationalization of labor and the squeezing of margins hasn't helped, but their flexibility is decreasing right along with the flexibility of employers ... a bad combination. Why hire a Muslim when you could just hire an Eastern European instead without all the protected class and religious demand headaches?

[vodka]

Google for Husby, Tensta and Rinkeby. Warning this might be bad for your blood pressure.

.

Here , we name it " the town or neighborhood  without law"(majority are gipsies) where the police when they go to arrest a criminal ,they have to enter the zone with more 400 men.
When  the social service as the ambulances and the firefigthers have to escort by the police if not are assaulted.

http://goo.gl/U8AG2f

[MK14]

I'm very annoyed that some European countries are rumored to be hiding the TRUTH, via control of the press (newspapers), TV and maybe other sources of "news" information.

It's similar here. Our president for example keeps denying the link between Islam and the current wave of global terrorism, and when the French president once mentioned Islamic terrorists, it was censored on the White House's web site.

(Partially speaking about politics and how it can go wrong in general).

What seems to happen, is that there is a genuine problem. E.g. That during "real" wars, information which leaks out, can literally cause large numbers of (usually) soldiers, to be needlessly killed.

Let's say that on the 20th (during a real war), we are sending 1,000 soldiers to city xyz, and launching a surprise attack. Maybe if we keep it secret, the mission will succeed and *ONLY* 100 soldiers will get killed.

But if the information leaks out, and the soldiers tell their wives that they are going to city xyz on the 20th, and it gets to the press etc.

3,000 enemy soldiers, and 10 powerful machine gun pillar boxes, and twenty tanks, can be waiting for them.

Then 900 of our soldiers are killed, and the mission is a disaster.

So it is reasonable to have things written into the law books, to allow governments to suppress information (and even lie I suppose), during real wars and when necessary.

What seems to happen these days (don't take what I say too literally), is that the governments argue that because "our" soldiers are fighting ISIS, we are effectively at war. Therefore governments can legitimately change/suppress the news, at will. Even when no soldiers lives are actually at risk to any serious extent. But the real purpose is to suppress how badly governments may be handling the migrant crisis etc.

So 1,000 immigrants attack a huge number of girls/women at a train station in Germany (I'm not clear on exactly what happened, because different sources say different things. But something funny was going on), get badly (sexually) attacked, and the people need to know.

Speculation: The fact that I can't clarify exactly what happened, *maybe* because government(s) have created false/misleading internet information sources, so that someone like me, can't tell which are telling the truth, and which are propaganda and/or over-reacting people, who are writing crazy nonsense.

It is a sort of "feature creep" and scope creep, which was never intended to take place, when the original rules/laws were designed.
Even the BBC, seems to be at least slightly affected by this phenomenon.

What has happened to "freedom of speech" in the west ?

[dannyf]

"What has happened to "freedom of speech" in the west ?"

Alive and well, as long as your speech is approved by those in charge of freedom of speech.

[MK14]

I happen to live near that city (Malmö) and know people who live there and the above description is not true at all. There are many refugees that have settled there, from former Yugoslavia and now the middle east. Sweden have had the same problem internally as EU has: the refugees choose freely where they want to live when they come here. All the refugees prefer to live as far south as possible so most of them have ended up in the most southern big city. The rich parts of the country do whatever they can to prevent refugees to come to their municipalities. But crime rates are not higher in Malmö than other cities, sex related or otherwise. It's only xenophobes and racists that would say the city is ruined because they want a racially/ethnically pure country.

Because of rumors (I have to hold my hand up, and admit, I'm also spreading them, see my last post for proof!) that the true news does not always reach the newspapers and other sources, because of government(s) intervention. That kind of forces one, to use/watch Youtube videos and other websites for independent, free and hopefully truthful information.

I hope we can use our common sense, to sort out videos etc, which are truth based and ones which are wrong/propaganda and/or written by unreliable/crazy/obsessed people/organisations.

The problem with me reliably knowing about Malmö, is that I don't want to travel there, just to find out the reality with my own eyes, as to what it is like there. The easy way, which is using the internet, is that I can get a number of conflicting opinions on what it is like there.

One says it is a nightmare, another says it is ok, but not wonderful, and another says it is just great, why not move there ?

So it can be difficult to reliably tell the truth from inaccurate/exaggerated or even plain wrong information sources.

Fortunately I am quite lucky living in the UK. Because the BBC TV channels and website, are a rather reliable (except occasionally/rarely possibly getting government influence, according to some people) way of getting my news/information, with a large degree of political independence (hopefully!).

Depending on who you believe, some sources think even the BBC has been somewhat badly affected by government influences and/or attempts to keep the peace as regards race relations and immigration issues etc.

Another (I think very serious) hindrance to "Freedom of speech in the West", is these modern laws, which make it illegal to incite racial tensions/hatred. The problem with that, is that some people may want to create a website, explaining what they think about the current political situation. Which could be accused of being illegal and/or not politically correct (PC).

On the other hand. I have to admit that the recent two killings of people in the US by police. Rapidly followed by viral Youtube (and other sources) videos of the shootings.
Probably caused or pushed the individual too far, to "murder" five policemen, and injure many more. Essentially just because of the initial unsurpressed Youtube videos. Also the videos have caused much unrest in the country as well.

So I can understand that in modern times, suppressing the initial viral videos and/or other internet information, may have saved many innocent lives, in the US recently. So it is a complicated subject area.

Also some of these youtube videos (especially the second policeman's killing ones), seem to be filled with huge misinformation and hatred of the police and even stuff to potentially cause racial disagreements etc.

tl;dr
That over-reacting (possibly lying) individual (the girlfriend of the second person killed by police), possibly with huge grudges against the police. May have contributed to a mass terrorism, mass-shooting event, and many other recent troubles in the US.

Don't worry about if she is lying or not. The point I'm trying to make is that even genuinely troubled/crazy/mad/bad individuals, can make a potentially viral Youtube video, and post all sorts of nonsense on there. If this is actually causing people to be murdered as a result, that is totally unacceptable.

So maybe it is a tricky double edged sword like, situation, which is difficult to resolve.

If we (the West) are not careful, stuff like this, could eventually trigger mass rioting or even civil wars, between factions. But I could be exaggerating or plain wrong.
So I'd better add the riot shield plate, to my tin foil hat, and carry on whistling to myself.

[MK14]

"What has happened to "freedom of speech" in the west ?"

Alive and well, as long as your speech is approved by those in charge of freedom of speech.

That's a good one!

Give a man a fish, and he is fed for a day. But teach him how to fish, and he will never be hungry for the rest of his life.
But if you are lazy.
Light a fire for a man, and he is warm for a day. But set him on fire, and he will be very warm, for the rest of his life.

[tggzzz]

You couldn't make it up.

When our new foreign secretary sits down to negotiate with the rest of the world, everybody else in the room is going to be thinking of the image that sums up modern UK...

[kaz911]

"What has happened to "freedom of speech" in the west ?"

Alive and well, as long as your speech is approved by those in charge of freedom of speech.

That's a good one!

Give a man a fish, and he is fed for a day. But teach him how to fish, and he will never be hungry for the rest of his life.

Nahh - not in the EU - they will take his fishing quota and split it between countries with no access to the sea.

[MK14]

Give a man a fish, and he is fed for a day. But teach him how to fish, and he will never be hungry for the rest of his life.

Nahh - not in the EU - they will take his fishing quota and split it between countries with no access to the sea.

Unfortunately there is probably a lot of truth in your post, in principal.

Before Brexit, a protester, wanted to set fire to the EU flag, in a video.
But of course he forgot that EU regulations, control the flammability of materials, so feel free to watch the (funny) video, as he tries to burn it.

[grumpydoc]

You couldn't make it up.

When our new foreign secretary sits down to negotiate with the rest of the world, everybody else in the room is going to be thinking of the image that sums up modern UK...

Yes, that's a very interesting choice. I wouldn't automatically assume Boris will cock it up, but he has a pretty worrying record of opening his mouth and inserting not just his foot but his whole leg.

That said she needs to give decent jobs to the prominent Brexiters, Gove is too unpopular for a really big post and Boris is less of a buffoon than he makes out. You couldn't give him Chancellor though, nor, I think, Home Sec but Foreign Sec could work.