UK forum members, BREXIT?

[george.b]

Apis I googled Sweden and the fourth return is "Sweden: Rape Capital of the West". How are your women liking the new multicultural Sweden?

Having a world without borders is a nice dream, maybe in another 1000 years or so it may even be realistic, assuming we don't kill ourselves first. There is to much cultural difference, economic disparity and mistrust for it to be practical now. You can continue with your experiment though, just don't include my Country in it, particularly after seeing what has been going on over the pond, thank you very much.

There is no such thing as native Swedish culture. Not anymore. Of course back in the 1970's we thought of ABBA, mixed naked saunas, VOLVO and meatballs. Even that is too disgustingly eurocentric and "white" for the modern culturally enriched swede. All traces of any traditional culture are to be held in shame and contempt. Even so much as when native, white, swedish girls are raped yet again by the latest influx of Somali and Arab "refugees", the ones who are all male 18-45 but claim they are 14 and are fast tracked in and given free reign in childrens schools.

Perhaps apis thinks this is great?. It is racist to demand a #rapefugee proves he is 14 and not 35 as he appears. Even his fucking facebook on his latest iPhone that he somehow manages to keep hold of, but passport he strangely loses, has all the evidence of his age and where he is from. But lets not go there... that's racist! or worse, Islamophobic! an utter contradiction if there ever was one.

The UK, other than enclaves of Tower Hamlets, Bolton, Bradford, etc. really don't want this shit.

The fast-tracking of Sweden and Germany to make these illiterate barbaric scum EU citizens is why the UK don't want anything to do with it.

Apparently Sweden has cut all its foreign aid and diverted it to these "needy" criminals. It costs them 100,000's EUR per individual criminal wideboy vs 200 EUR per individual child in a foreign aid camp. The illegal immigrant wideboys with their latest iPhones are now leading to the starvation of 500 genuine Syrian refugees per each one of them.

But hey, cultural marxists can Virtue Signal to each other on how well they are destroying the patriarchial cis white race from within.

(Oh lord, I can get references but my cider level is too much tonight! maybe tomorrow when I get ripped a progressive new one!  )

ETA: A great Swedish refugee immigrant that speaks out about the insanity is

When I think of what Swedes are doing to themselves, I get depressed. I am Brazilian and I get depressed thinking about Sweden. That's how bad it is.

[zapta]

ETA: A great Swedish refugee immigrant that speaks out about the insanity is

I see a lot of that insanity in our political left here.

[Simon]

The fact that something like TTI P could even be conceived and discussed in the EU parliament is enough from me to decide that it has become a monstrosity that is uncontrollable and not very useful. The whole concept should have been thrown out at its inception instead they have been talking about it seriously for years.

The EU parliament know no more than your MP about about TTIP. It was negotiated by the Commission as secretively as they could. All we know about it has come from leaks. The EU parliament has little to no power compared with the Commission.

Right so we force the debate into the UK where our MP's have to know what they are voting on and can be accessd by people

[tggzzz]

Right so we force the debate into the UK where our MP's have to know what they are voting on and can be accessd by people

Meanwhile, back on planet earth...

Gove and his ilk tell everybody to ignore all experts that understand their subjects.
Jo Cox was accessed by her constituents, unfortunately.

In that light, would you like to re-state your point?

[MK14]

Right so we force the debate into the UK where our MP's have to know what they are voting on and can be accessd by people

Meanwhile, back on planet earth...

Gove and his ilk tell everybody to ignore all experts that understand their subjects.
Jo Cox was accessed by her constituents, unfortunately.

In that light, would you like to re-state your point?

Which is why juries consist of 12, rather than 1 or 2 people.

There are 650 MP's and the house of lords.

So yes, some might vote in a (possibly) foolish way, but the overall votes total wins. Which still should be SENSIBLE.

The NONSENSE is the way they are trying to SECRETLY pass laws/trade-agreements outside of the normal political safeguards.
(E.g. TTIP).
Which is VERY WORRYING.

[Simon]

Right so we force the debate into the UK where our MP's have to know what they are voting on and can be accessd by people

Meanwhile, back on planet earth...

Gove and his ilk tell everybody to ignore all experts that understand their subjects.
Jo Cox was accessed by her constituents, unfortunately.

In that light, would you like to re-state your point?

Not really I haven't got a clue what you are talking about you have taken a number of facts and used them to miss construct things and are being very unreasonable. Jo Cox's murder was an outrage and carried out by one person. I have always wondered myself what stops me going to see my MP and shooting him because believe it or not Jo Cox was not the only MP in this country that speaks to her constituents even my MP one of the most expensive MPs in the country who does not give a toss about what people want does actually meet his constituents and I have sat down with him in an office with nobody else and anybody could have walked in through the door. Unfortunately Jo drew the short straw and unfortunately right wing nutters are the ones that tend to go around shooting people not left wing nutters and it will be a left wing nut that will go after my local MP. I think more consideration should be given to the safety of MPs you seem to be arguing that nobody be allowed to meet them. On the other hand we could just quash extremist groups like Britain 1st and stop giving so much airtime to people like Nigel Farage. We live in an age where people saying nasty things and lies are the ones that get the most media attention. The truth and good news is not news and we the public are partly responsible. We all know that certain newspapers talk bollocks but do we still buy them? Of course we do so what are we the people doing fuelling the lies. There comes a point where you have to stop blaming other people because we all live in our respective countries together and we can all collectively make a difference but everybody is only out for themselves. Most people when asked will probably say that they respect women and do not deem them to be objects but how many people by certain papers because of page 3?

We know politicians lie and we know that they know less than the experts. But tell me how many experts are there telling us about TTI P at the moment? As mentioned above anything we do know is totally unofficial and then a small group of people get to vote on it for the whole of Europe. If we have this same debate in the UK we would have to have more facts placed before us and hopefully there would be experts able to analyse publicly available information and there will be a debate in Parliament between MPs who can be contacted by their constituents.

[tggzzz]

Right so we force the debate into the UK where our MP's have to know what they are voting on and can be accessd by people

Meanwhile, back on planet earth...

Gove and his ilk tell everybody to ignore all experts that understand their subjects.
Jo Cox was accessed by her constituents, unfortunately.

In that light, would you like to re-state your point?

Which is why juries consist of 12, rather than 1 or 2 people.

There are 650 MP's and the house of lords.

So yes, some might vote in a (possibly) foolish way, but the overall votes total wins. Which still should be SENSIBLE.

The NONSENSE is the way they are trying to SECRETLY pass laws/trade-agreements outside of the normal political safeguards.
(E.g. TTIP).
Which is VERY WORRYING.

Tribal loyalties and whipping are a problem in the two houses; they can and do override "common sense". Not that common sense is common, of course.

I entirely agree about the TTIP. That will detrimentally affect the likes of us far more than any considerations of "sovereignty", whatever "sovereignty" means nowadays.

[Simon]

Tribal loyalties and whipping are a problem in the two houses; they can and do override "common sense". Not that common sense is common, of course.

I entirely agree about the TTIP. That will detrimentally affect the likes of us far more than any considerations of "sovereignty", whatever "sovereignty" means nowadays.

 that is why Jeremy Corbin is so popular because he has defied the leadership time and time again and acted on his principles and that is why people have voted for him and want him to stay despite what he's red Tory colleagues want.

[MK14]

Tribal loyalties and whipping are a problem in the two houses; they can and do override "common sense". Not that common sense is common, of course.

I entirely agree about the TTIP. That will detrimentally affect the likes of us far more than any considerations of "sovereignty", whatever "sovereignty" means nowadays.

I agree the MP's and house of commons are NOT perfect.

A good example is the loss of our personal privacy, due to overly weak and/or poorly written, "snoopers charters" etc. Also the way our NHS private data, is potentially ANYTHING BUT private!

Governments seem to think that giant IT databases, are a good idea, and REALLY secure. E.g. TalkTalk mass hacking (ok it is NOT government, but an example of how things can go WRONG).

But by and large, it is an improvement on other political systems, in general.

[doobedoobedo]

Right so we force the debate into the UK where our MP's have to know what they are voting on and can be accessd by people

...
Jo Cox was accessed by her constituents, unfortunately.
...

And there goes any credibility you may have had.

[bitslice]

that is why Jeremy Corbin is so popular because he has defied the leadership time and time again and acted on his principles and that is why people have voted for him and want him to stay despite what he's red Tory colleagues want.

He's no different from another other middle class Goldsmiths student discovering Marxism for the first time, and like all of them, he lacks any ability to turn that into political action. He's just jealous that the unprincipled Blairites that he hates so much, managed to get anything done.
The "people" voting for him are the same student idealists still carrying a flag from the SWP days, none of this is new or different, it's simply proven to be unelectable.

Want principles, I have lots, just let me know the ones you like the most.

[tggzzz]

Right so we force the debate into the UK where our MP's have to know what they are voting on and can be accessd by people

...
Jo Cox was accessed by her constituents, unfortunately.
...

And there goes any credibility you may have had.

Why?

The relevant point is the Jo Cox tragedy will tend to make MPs withdraw into their shell - so making access more difficult. Perhaps I should have made that explicit.

[doobedoobedo]

Right so we force the debate into the UK where our MP's have to know what they are voting on and can be accessd by people

...
Jo Cox was accessed by her constituents, unfortunately.
...

And there goes any credibility you may have had.

Why?

The relevant point is the Jo Cox tragedy will tend to make MPs withdraw into their shell - so making access more difficult. Perhaps I should have made that explicit.

So you believe MPs to be ignorant cowards? People who can't recognise a tragic one-off?

[tggzzz]

Right so we force the debate into the UK where our MP's have to know what they are voting on and can be accessd by people

...
Jo Cox was accessed by her constituents, unfortunately.
...

And there goes any credibility you may have had.

Why?

The relevant point is the Jo Cox tragedy will tend to make MPs withdraw into their shell - so making access more difficult. Perhaps I should have made that explicit.

So you believe MPs to be ignorant cowards? People who can't recognise a tragic one-off?

It is ignorant to believe it is a one-off, unfortunately. Stephen Timms, Ian Dow and Airey Neave are the first that spring to mind.

Here's the first few reports from different parts of the media spectrum:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-devoted-her-life-to-british-democracy--and-she-died-for-i/
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/before-jo-cox-last-mp-8213476
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/jo-cox-murder-what-can-we-do-to-protect-our-mps/
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jo-coxs-murder-could-threaten-8212948

[doobedoobedo]

Right so we force the debate into the UK where our MP's have to know what they are voting on and can be accessd by people

...
Jo Cox was accessed by her constituents, unfortunately.
...

And there goes any credibility you may have had.

Why?

The relevant point is the Jo Cox tragedy will tend to make MPs withdraw into their shell - so making access more difficult. Perhaps I should have made that explicit.

So you believe MPs to be ignorant cowards? People who can't recognise a tragic one-off?

It is ignorant to believe it is a one-off, unfortunately. Stephen Timms, Ian Dow and Airey Neave are the first that spring to mind.

Here's the first few reports from different parts of the media spectrum:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-devoted-her-life-to-british-democracy--and-she-died-for-i/
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/before-jo-cox-last-mp-8213476
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/jo-cox-murder-what-can-we-do-to-protect-our-mps/
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jo-coxs-murder-could-threaten-8212948

Stephen Timms: stabbed by islamic extremist 2010
Ian Dow: ??
Airey Neave: INLA car bomb - Height of the troubles 1979 (37 years ago)

knee jerk reaction from the press...

That's like saying that no American president will ever appear in public again after the Kennedy assassination.

[tggzzz]

Right so we force the debate into the UK where our MP's have to know what they are voting on and can be accessd by people

...
Jo Cox was accessed by her constituents, unfortunately.
...

And there goes any credibility you may have had.

Why?

The relevant point is the Jo Cox tragedy will tend to make MPs withdraw into their shell - so making access more difficult. Perhaps I should have made that explicit.

So you believe MPs to be ignorant cowards? People who can't recognise a tragic one-off?

It is ignorant to believe it is a one-off, unfortunately. Stephen Timms, Ian Dow and Airey Neave are the first that spring to mind.

Here's the first few reports from different parts of the media spectrum:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-devoted-her-life-to-british-democracy--and-she-died-for-i/
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/before-jo-cox-last-mp-8213476
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/jo-cox-murder-what-can-we-do-to-protect-our-mps/
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jo-coxs-murder-could-threaten-8212948

Stephen Timms: stabbed by islamic extremist 2010
Ian Dow: ??
Airey Neave: INLA car bomb - Height of the troubles 1979 (37 years ago)

knee jerk reaction from the press...

That's like saying that no American president will ever appear in public again after the Kennedy assassination.

You aren't the one to determine that threat's significance, since you aren't under that thread. It is up to individual MPs to decide what precautions are necessary for them in their environment.

[Tepe]

That's like saying that no American president will ever appear in public again after the Kennedy assassination.

That depends on what is meant by appearing in public. When he moves, the presidential counter assault team apparently tags along.

[apis]

Apis I googled Sweden and the fourth return is "Sweden: Rape Capital of the West". How are your women liking the new multicultural Sweden?

I'm sorry but you have fallen victim to a piece of fascist propaganda. Swedish self proclaimed patriots like to slander their own country by spreading lies like that one. If you casually glance at rape statistics it may look like rape has increased in Sweden in recent years but the reason is the change in legislation, not criminal behavior. It's because feminists have been successful at redefining rape and made the sex crime legislation much more strict. You may have heard of a man called Julian Assange who became intimately familiar with this phenomena. If you compare statistics based on the same criteria Sweden actually has less problem with sexual abuse than the rest of Europe.

Having a world without borders is a nice dream, maybe in another 1000 years or so it may even be realistic, assuming we don't kill ourselves first. There is to much cultural difference, economic disparity and mistrust for it to be practical now. You can continue with your experiment though, just don't include my Country in it, particularly after seeing what has been going on over the pond, thank you very much.

I wasn't aware Canada had plans to apply for EU membership? Why do you assume we'd let you join?
Just joking, I'm sure we would, Canadians are great (and also had balls enough to oppose the Iraq war.)

[apis]

So, I suspect most people also agree that different levels of cooperation/organization are necessary, but it's important decisions are made at the right level, and that is what the principle of subsidiary is about. So EU is actually very good in that regard.

That is exactly the point!  It's pretty easy to go down to City Hall and get things done.  It's a little harder at the County level, nearly impossible at the State level and completely impossible at the Federal level.  We have the most direct input to the organizations at the very bottom of the hierarchy and no influence at the top level.

It is the unreachable top level that makes the most burdensome regulations.

Yes, but not all problems can be solved at the city hall level. What if the town upstream is dumping their sewers downstream so all other towns get poisoned water in the river. You need the county level or state level to regulate how towns manage their waste. The higher levels (and the lower levels as well really) are a necessary evil. Consider something like the ozone hole: how could the world regulate the use of Freon so it didn't cause further damage to the ozone hole unless there was global cooperation?

At least in the european union there is agreement that decisions/regulations should be made at the national level whenever possible, as evident by the subsidiarity principle.

[bitslice]

fascist propaganda

"individuals with an immigrant background made up 53% of all rape convictions"


If you track the rise in rapes, it directly corresponds to the rise in immigration.
Only in Sweden would someone fanatically deny a causal link.

It's the same in Germany, and just like Sweden they instruct the Police to conceal the statistics, because informing women of a potential risk would be way-cist 

You are directly responsible for perpetuating rape, because you insist on labelling any dissent as racist or fascist. Intimidatory Left wing censorship of discussion is how this issue is allowed to fester.

[doobedoobedo]

So, I suspect most people also agree that different levels of cooperation/organization are necessary, but it's important decisions are made at the right level, and that is what the principle of subsidiary is about. So EU is actually very good in that regard.

That is exactly the point!  It's pretty easy to go down to City Hall and get things done.  It's a little harder at the County level, nearly impossible at the State level and completely impossible at the Federal level.  We have the most direct input to the organizations at the very bottom of the hierarchy and no influence at the top level.

It is the unreachable top level that makes the most burdensome regulations.

Yes, but not all problems can be solved at the city hall level. What if the town upstream is dumping their sewers downstream so all other towns get poisoned water in the river. You need the county level or state level to regulate how towns manage their waste. The higher levels (and the lower levels as well really) are a necessary evil. Consider something like the ozone hole: how could the world regulate the use of Freon so it didn't cause further damage to the ozone hole unless there was global cooperation?

At least in the european union there is agreement that decisions/regulations should be made at the national level whenever possible, as evident by the subsidiarity principle.

There is a big difference between principle and practice...

[doobedoobedo]

Right so we force the debate into the UK where our MP's have to know what they are voting on and can be accessd by people

...
Jo Cox was accessed by her constituents, unfortunately.
...

And there goes any credibility you may have had.

Why?

The relevant point is the Jo Cox tragedy will tend to make MPs withdraw into their shell - so making access more difficult. Perhaps I should have made that explicit.

So you believe MPs to be ignorant cowards? People who can't recognise a tragic one-off?

It is ignorant to believe it is a one-off, unfortunately. Stephen Timms, Ian Dow and Airey Neave are the first that spring to mind.

Here's the first few reports from different parts of the media spectrum:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-devoted-her-life-to-british-democracy--and-she-died-for-i/
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/before-jo-cox-last-mp-8213476
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/jo-cox-murder-what-can-we-do-to-protect-our-mps/
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jo-coxs-murder-could-threaten-8212948

Stephen Timms: stabbed by islamic extremist 2010
Ian Dow: ??
Airey Neave: INLA car bomb - Height of the troubles 1979 (37 years ago)

knee jerk reaction from the press...

That's like saying that no American president will ever appear in public again after the Kennedy assassination.

You aren't the one to determine that threat's significance, since you aren't under that thread. It is up to individual MPs to decide what precautions are necessary for them in their environment.

I cross the road, I know the odds.

Jo Cox was the only MP ever to be murdered at a constituents surgery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serving_British_MPs_who_were_assassinated

[bitslice]

Stephen Timms: stabbed by islamic extremist 2010

Funny that, he or his attacker barely gets a mention in the press.

Joe Cox, gets worldwide attention, with even Hillary Clinton getting in on the karma whoring


I wonder what the differences were...

[tggzzz]

Stephen Timms: stabbed by islamic extremist 2010

Funny that, he or his attacker barely gets a mention in the press.

Joe Cox, gets worldwide attention, with even Hillary Clinton getting in on the karma whoring

I wonder what the differences were...

Prettiness, and the number of journalists in town looking for a story (any story) to file?

[tggzzz]

Right so we force the debate into the UK where our MP's have to know what they are voting on and can be accessd by people

...
Jo Cox was accessed by her constituents, unfortunately.
...

And there goes any credibility you may have had.

Why?

The relevant point is the Jo Cox tragedy will tend to make MPs withdraw into their shell - so making access more difficult. Perhaps I should have made that explicit.

So you believe MPs to be ignorant cowards? People who can't recognise a tragic one-off?

It is ignorant to believe it is a one-off, unfortunately. Stephen Timms, Ian Dow and Airey Neave are the first that spring to mind.

Here's the first few reports from different parts of the media spectrum:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-devoted-her-life-to-british-democracy--and-she-died-for-i/
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/before-jo-cox-last-mp-8213476
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/jo-cox-murder-what-can-we-do-to-protect-our-mps/
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jo-coxs-murder-could-threaten-8212948

Stephen Timms: stabbed by islamic extremist 2010
Ian Dow: ??
Airey Neave: INLA car bomb - Height of the troubles 1979 (37 years ago)

knee jerk reaction from the press...

That's like saying that no American president will ever appear in public again after the Kennedy assassination.

You aren't the one to determine that threat's significance, since you aren't under that thread. It is up to individual MPs to decide what precautions are necessary for them in their environment.

I cross the road, I know the odds.

Jo Cox was the only MP ever to be murdered at a constituents surgery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serving_British_MPs_who_were_assassinated

One near miss, with the strong implication there have been others...
http://talkradio.co.uk/highlights/jo-cox-lets-stop-yelling-mps-says-edwina-currie-1606171694

I suspect Currie knows more about this than you do.