UK forum members, BREXIT?

[rstofer]

Similar thing with this Brexit-vote: Very few voters really understand the big picture, how the things are interrelated, how the decision is really going to affect the voter, his/her family, and how the complex society and economics work in general. The voters want to have a simple, quick-fix for the current problem like immigration, current-government-suck, NHS needs more funding, and do not see how their decision will affect their lives and the general economics tomorrow. And the voters may really genuinely think that they have all the information needed to make the right decision.

Every single voter understood the issue from their point of view and they cared enough to vote.  No, they can't see the big picture - that's the domain of politicians.  What they see is a country losing sovereignty or at least control of its borders.  Perhaps they are unemployed, underemployed or displaced by outsiders.  Perhaps they can't afford a house.  Perhaps they feel their living situation hasn't improved and maybe even deteriorated.  They are angry and somebody let them vote!  And they voted exactly the way they felt.

That's either the blessing or the curse of democracy.  People get to vote and they can vote any way they wish.  And everybody votes (or should vote) in their own self-interest.  It's their vote, they can do anything they want with it.

The Remain folks were so certain of a win that they didn't bother to present their case to the voters.  Clearly, nobody would vote to leave!  Until they did...  The Remain campaign didn't present enough information for people to look past their immediate self-interest and toward their future self-interest.  Whose fault is that?

[doobedoobedo]

If you think the decision process involved in the Brexit-vote (whether vote for "Leave" or "Remain") for each and every voter, and compare it to the forum posts regarding designing a simple power supply "I need to build an adjustable lab power supply" or designing a simple active load "I want to build a simple active load using a MOSFET and op amp" there are quite a lot of similarities. People want quick and fast solutions without having to think too much.

You may say that the task of designing a simple power supply or active load seems pretty simple. But in reality it is actually pretty difficult and you need to have rather good knowledge about the electronics in order to get that right, not ending with a oscillating design or a design with the magic smoke coming out. The task will be very difficult when you need to have it right at first try, no second design allowed, similar to the Brexit-vote.

Typically the designs are based on the simplified application notes or the designs found floating in the Internet which are missing the needed circuit elements to make the design stable and robust. Butt the designer doesn't really really have the knowledge and understanding that is needed in order to make a judgment what is a good design. Actually the designer with limited knowledge and experience typically have a genuine feeling that they do know how to design it properly, and only at later stage find out that the are lacking the needed knowledge.

Similar thing with this Brexit-vote: Very few voters really understand the big picture, how the things are interrelated, how the decision is really going to affect the voter, his/her family, and how the complex society and economics work in general. The voters want to have a simple, quick-fix for the current problem like immigration, current-government-suck, NHS needs more funding, and do not see how their decision will affect their lives and the general economics tomorrow. And the voters may really genuinely think that they have all the information needed to make the right decision.

Nice analogy. I'll re-use it from a different slant if you don't mind:

Similar thing with the EU: it doesn't work quite the way they want it, so they keep modifying the design without paying attention to the tolerances of the components. Then the magic smoke escapes and they don't understand why.

[zapta]

<PART 1 of Nigel Farage post-Brexit EU Parliament Speech> video.

Number 20 tries to leave the village. Will he make it?

[3db]

If you think the decision process involved in the Brexit-vote (whether vote for "Leave" or "Remain") for each and every voter, and compare it to the forum posts regarding designing a simple power supply "I need to build an adjustable lab power supply" or designing a simple active load "I want to build a simple active load using a MOSFET and op amp" there are quite a lot of similarities. People want quick and fast solutions without having to think too much.

You may say that the task of designing a simple power supply or active load seems pretty simple. But in reality it is actually pretty difficult and you need to have rather good knowledge about the electronics in order to get that right, not ending with a oscillating design or a design with the magic smoke coming out. The task will be very difficult when you need to have it right at first try, no second design allowed, similar to the Brexit-vote.

Typically the designs are based on the simplified application notes or the designs found floating in the Internet which are missing the needed circuit elements to make the design stable and robust. Butt the designer doesn't really really have the knowledge and understanding that is needed in order to make a judgment what is a good design. Actually the designer with limited knowledge and experience typically have a genuine feeling that they do know how to design it properly, and only at later stage find out that the are lacking the needed knowledge.

Similar thing with this Brexit-vote: Very few voters really understand the big picture, how the things are interrelated, how the decision is really going to affect the voter, his/her family, and how the complex society and economics work in general. The voters want to have a simple, quick-fix for the current problem like immigration, current-government-suck, NHS needs more funding, and do not see how their decision will affect their lives and the general economics tomorrow. And the voters may really genuinely think that they have all the information needed to make the right decision.

But the main point is that we do it ourselves.
If we don't like out Gov we can get rid of them.
That cannot be done within the EU.
Let's not forget that Cameron tried to voice his concerns and got very little.
I'm sure there will be stormy waters ahead but we'll manage.
The UK has a lot going for it especially when the chips are down.
The EU will either change its ways or it's doomed.

3DB

[3db]

Some days I'm ashamed to be British, any space in 'stralia?

Apply !!
I believe they will let you in if they think you will be useful to OZ.
Seems like a good way to do it.
UNLIKE the EU !!
 

[CJay]

Some days I'm ashamed to be British, any space in 'stralia?

Apply !!
I believe they will let you in if they think you will be useful to OZ.
Seems like a good way to do it.
UNLIKE the EU !!
 
[/quote

I didn't say the EU doesn't have its faults, it does, it has many, but the nasty racist undercurrents are becoming mainstream and after campaigns from both camps based on lies, I am not sure I want to bring up my children here any more.

[vodka]

<PART 1 of Nigel Farage post-Brexit EU Parliament Speech> video.

Number 20 tries to leave the village. Will he make it?

NO COMMENT

[Andy Watson]

Some days I'm ashamed to be British, any space in 'stralia?

Apply !!
I believe they will let you in if they think you will be useful to OZ.
Seems like a good way to do it.
UNLIKE the EU !!
 
[/quote

I didn't say the EU doesn't have its faults, it does, it has many, but the nasty racist undercurrents are becoming mainstream and after campaigns from both camps based on lies, I am not sure I want to bring up my children here any more.

+1.
I'd like to come too But the last time I investigated I was already 10 years over the age limit

[CJay]

Some days I'm ashamed to be British, any space in 'stralia?

Apply !!
I believe they will let you in if they think you will be useful to OZ.
Seems like a good way to do it.
UNLIKE the EU !!
 
[/quote

I didn't say the EU doesn't have its faults, it does, it has many, but the nasty racist undercurrents are becoming mainstream and after campaigns from both camps based on lies, I am not sure I want to bring up my children here any more.

+1.
I'd like to come too But the last time I investigated I was already 10 years over the age limit

Not far away from it myself. Canada also seems an option.

[Simon]

https://youtu.be/woaS1b_seEM

The man is an arsehole. He along with all other politicians should be done for fraud. Until fraudalent claims in politics are legal there will be no good politics.

[3db]

I've just about had this thread.
People don't want to hear the truth.
Would you vote for someone who said you'll  be worse off for 10 years.
Would you vote for someone who told you NOT to accrue lots of credit card debt.
etc etc.
Farage is no worse than than the rest of them.
He was at least clear and consistent  on his views of the EU.
He will also be proven right on the EU's future unless they change their ways.
Do some research into the history of the EU.You might find it interesting.

  

[Simon]

the man is a fraud

[3db]

the man is a fraud

Explain why.

[Simon]

the man is a fraud

Explain why.

he has lied and holds a post in the eu he does not even fullfill. his speach was intentionally divisive and he has been caught out no end telling lies and making statistics up. He must be the despair of his own advisers and party office who have had to admit they don't know where he got certain figures from and that was before the EU campaign.

[3db]

the man is a fraud

Explain why.

he has lied and holds a post in the eu he does not even fullfill. his speach was intentionally divisive and he has been caught out no end telling lies and making statistics up. He must be the despair of his own advisers and party office who have had to admit they don't know where he got certain figures from and that was before the EU campaign.

Perhaps he got some of them from the official leave campaign,which he wasn't a member of.
Anyway, forget Farage WE are LEAVING the EU.
Let's see how devisive the EU are now that we're leaving.

[Simon]

the man is a fraud

Explain why.

he has lied and holds a post in the eu he does not even fullfill. his speach was intentionally divisive and he has been caught out no end telling lies and making statistics up. He must be the despair of his own advisers and party office who have had to admit they don't know where he got certain figures from and that was before the EU campaign.

Perhaps he got some of them from the official leave campaign,which he wasn't a member of.
Anyway, forget Farage WE are LEAVING the EU.
Let's see how devisive the EU are now that we're leaving.

Your first line indicates you did not hear what I said, I'm talking about over a year ago. I think it was during the scottish referendum.

[3db]

the man is a fraud

Explain why.

he has lied and holds a post in the eu he does not even fullfill. his speach was intentionally divisive and he has been caught out no end telling lies and making statistics up. He must be the despair of his own advisers and party office who have had to admit they don't know where he got certain figures from and that was before the EU campaign.

Perhaps he got some of them from the official leave campaign,which he wasn't a member of.
Anyway, forget Farage WE are LEAVING the EU.
Let's see how devisive the EU are now that we're leaving.

Your first line indicates you did not hear what I said, I'm talking about over a year ago. I think it was during the scottish referendum.

To be honest,like I said earlier I've had it with this whole thread.
I'm Scottish so I know all about fear campaigns and lies.
I voted for the SNP
Scotland voted to remain.
The SNP want to stay in the EU.
I like Europe I voted to join the EU.
I worked closely with Germans for years.
I've spent a lot of time in Germany and have lived and worked all over Europe and the rest of world.
I can't be arsed fully explaining my views on the EU
I believe the EU is unfit for the world we live in now.
The whole reason for it's inception relates to Nazi Germany and mainland Europe.
If they had half a brain they would have given Cameron more when he went to see them. Then perhaps the UK wouldn't have voted out.
I'm sure in the long term the UK will have a brighter future OUT of the EU.

[CJay]

I've just about had this thread.
People don't want to hear the truth.
Would you vote for someone who said you'll  be worse off for 10 years.
Would you vote for someone who told you NOT to accrue lots of credit card debt.
etc etc.
Farage is no worse than than the rest of them.
He was at least clear and consistent  on his views of the EU.
He will also be proven right on the EU's future unless they change their ways.
Do some research into the history of the EU.You might find it interesting.

 

Maybe consistent on his views of the EU but the man twists and turns in the wind whenever he's asked to substantiate a claim, he's been caught lying, on camera, many times and has denied statements that he was shown making  on national television.

You may find it instructive to take a look on archive.org to see the lies fall away from the leave campaign's website as they were knocked down one by one, similarly from the UKIP website.

I'm sure a google search for Farage lies would be similarly instructive.

I agree, human nature is a terrible thing and yes, it's difficult for most humans to see beyond the end of their nose. Farage especially as the smoke from his pants and the fact that his nose is now probably two continents further away than it was three months ago...

 

[vodka]

I've just about had this thread.
People don't want to hear the truth.
Would you vote for someone who said you'll  be worse off for 10 years.
Would you vote for someone who told you NOT to accrue lots of credit card debt.
etc etc.
Farage is no worse than than the rest of them.
He was at least clear and consistent  on his views of the EU.
He will also be proven right on the EU's future unless they change their ways.
Do some research into the history of the EU.You might find it interesting.

 

Maybe consistent on his views of the EU but the man twists and turns in the wind whenever he's asked to substantiate a claim, he's been caught lying, on camera, many times and has denied statements that he was shown making  on national television.

You may find it instructive to take a look on archive.org to see the lies fall away from the leave campaign's website as they were knocked down one by one, similarly from the UKIP website.

I'm sure a google search for Farage lies would be similarly instructive.

I agree, human nature is a terrible thing and yes, it's difficult for most humans to see beyond the end of their nose. Farage especially as the smoke from his pants and the fact that his nose is now probably two continents further away than it was three months ago...

Didn't you want more democracy? So now you don't cry

[Simon]

the man is a fraud

Explain why.

he has lied and holds a post in the eu he does not even fullfill. his speach was intentionally divisive and he has been caught out no end telling lies and making statistics up. He must be the despair of his own advisers and party office who have had to admit they don't know where he got certain figures from and that was before the EU campaign.

Perhaps he got some of them from the official leave campaign,which he wasn't a member of.
Anyway, forget Farage WE are LEAVING the EU.
Let's see how devisive the EU are now that we're leaving.

Your first line indicates you did not hear what I said, I'm talking about over a year ago. I think it was during the scottish referendum.

To be honest,like I said earlier I've had it with this whole thread.
I'm Scottish so I know all about fear campaigns and lies.
I voted for the SNP
Scotland voted to remain.
The SNP want to stay in the EU.
I like Europe I voted to join the EU.
I worked closely with Germans for years.
I've spent a lot of time in Germany and have lived and worked all over Europe and the rest of world.
I can't be arsed fully explaining my views on the EU
I believe the EU is unfit for the world we live in now.
The whole reason for it's inception relates to Nazi Germany and mainland Europe.
If they had half a brain they would have given Cameron more when he went to see them. Then perhaps the UK wouldn't have voted out.
I'm sure in the long term the UK will have a brighter future OUT of the EU.

and yet the SNP want out of the Uk while wanting in the EU. They are their own special little version of UKIP. I lived in italy for 14 years, I don't have a problem with immigrants per se but fact is given a chace to choose there are less than a handful of couties any immigrant or asylum seeker want to go, and we happen to be one of them, god knows why and our land is not limitless, as it is our supermarkets would be empty 3 days after closing filexstoe port....... they aren't camping on our border in france for nothing, they are in europe, what is their problem ?

[CJay]

I've just about had this thread.
People don't want to hear the truth.
Would you vote for someone who said you'll  be worse off for 10 years.
Would you vote for someone who told you NOT to accrue lots of credit card debt.
etc etc.
Farage is no worse than than the rest of them.
He was at least clear and consistent  on his views of the EU.
He will also be proven right on the EU's future unless they change their ways.
Do some research into the history of the EU.You might find it interesting.

 

Maybe consistent on his views of the EU but the man twists and turns in the wind whenever he's asked to substantiate a claim, he's been caught lying, on camera, many times and has denied statements that he was shown making  on national television.

You may find it instructive to take a look on archive.org to see the lies fall away from the leave campaign's website as they were knocked down one by one, similarly from the UKIP website.

I'm sure a google search for Farage lies would be similarly instructive.

I agree, human nature is a terrible thing and yes, it's difficult for most humans to see beyond the end of their nose. Farage especially as the smoke from his pants and the fact that his nose is now probably two continents further away than it was three months ago...

Didn't you want more democracy? So now you don't cry

I was happy with the amount we had and still do have, I'm not crying about the result, just at the lies told and believed by both sides which have lead to directly attributed racist abuse and attacks against immigrants from within and outside the EU already.

We can leave the economic problems and immense cost of the burocratic wrangling until later.

[retrolefty]

I've just about had this thread.
People don't want to hear the truth.
Would you vote for someone who said you'll  be worse off for 10 years.
Would you vote for someone who told you NOT to accrue lots of credit card debt.
etc etc.
Farage is no worse than than the rest of them.
He was at least clear and consistent  on his views of the EU.
He will also be proven right on the EU's future unless they change their ways.
Do some research into the history of the EU.You might find it interesting.

 

Maybe consistent on his views of the EU but the man twists and turns in the wind whenever he's asked to substantiate a claim, he's been caught lying, on camera, many times and has denied statements that he was shown making  on national television.

You may find it instructive to take a look on archive.org to see the lies fall away from the leave campaign's website as they were knocked down one by one, similarly from the UKIP website.

I'm sure a google search for Farage lies would be similarly instructive.

I agree, human nature is a terrible thing and yes, it's difficult for most humans to see beyond the end of their nose. Farage especially as the smoke from his pants and the fact that his nose is now probably two continents further away than it was three months ago...

 OMG a politician telling 'lies' to try and gain or remain in office and exercise influence with voters. Hope it never happens here in the States. 

 I see no reason any politician needs to be smarter or more honest then the average voter.

[Simon]

I've just about had this thread.
People don't want to hear the truth.
Would you vote for someone who said you'll  be worse off for 10 years.
Would you vote for someone who told you NOT to accrue lots of credit card debt.
etc etc.
Farage is no worse than than the rest of them.
He was at least clear and consistent  on his views of the EU.
He will also be proven right on the EU's future unless they change their ways.
Do some research into the history of the EU.You might find it interesting.

 

Maybe consistent on his views of the EU but the man twists and turns in the wind whenever he's asked to substantiate a claim, he's been caught lying, on camera, many times and has denied statements that he was shown making  on national television.

You may find it instructive to take a look on archive.org to see the lies fall away from the leave campaign's website as they were knocked down one by one, similarly from the UKIP website.

I'm sure a google search for Farage lies would be similarly instructive.

I agree, human nature is a terrible thing and yes, it's difficult for most humans to see beyond the end of their nose. Farage especially as the smoke from his pants and the fact that his nose is now probably two continents further away than it was three months ago...

 OMG a politician telling 'lies' to try and gain or remain in office and exercise influence with voters. Hope it never happens here in the States. 

 I see no reason any politician needs to be smarter or more honest then the average voter.

This bloke has done a bit more than take the piddle. Normal politicians exagerate facts and mis use statistics. this guy makes crap up on the hoof. He caimed he would resign if he did not win the last general election, he back tracked on that in hours after a rumor he was going to take a break. I was at the count for the last election and the UKIP lot were passing news between them and were hoping their beloved leader would not resign. The word was "he taking a break but the important thing is he's not resigned". The man is a farce and frankly I'd have had him removed from the Eu parliament when he made that speech. UK politicians get kicked out of the Uk parliament for the day for less.

You see according to him scotland can't afford to leave the UK because over 50% claim benefits. By benefits most people mean unemployment but this was a figure that included pensions, housing susidies and every possible state ghand out that just happened to be the same as the amount in england.

People are claiming about the labour parrty that a cult is a bad thing, that is not a cult, that is people uniting around one of the few honest politicians in a ling time, UKIP is a cult.

[apis]

If we don't like out Gov we can get rid of them.
That cannot be done within the EU.
Let's not forget that Cameron tried to voice his concerns and got very little.
I'm sure there will be stormy waters ahead but we'll manage.

Of course we can. Or who do you think we are? Is it you, your family, your village, your county, England, the United Kindom, the European Union, the people of Earth or the Universe?. The only "we" that can replace the UK government is the people of the entire UK, it's the same with the European union of course, it works on the European level. A single country can't be allowed to decide over all the other member states, and non-member states have no influence at all.

The member states of the European union are all democracies, we vote for our governments and they send their representatives to the Council of Ministers. We also vote directly for our representatives in the European Parliament. So yes, if the people of Europe doesn't like their MEPs or the council we can definitely get rid of them. The English are as much to blame for all the shortcomings of EU as everyone else. EU is a work in progress, it will improve as long as people vote sensibly (which seems less probable today I'll admit).

Will you now allow the Scottish to leave the UK? How about Gibraltar, Northern Ireland or Wales? Can the Scottish people get rid of the Gov in Westminster? How about brits under the age of 50? and so on...

[Simon]

Will you now allow the Scottish to leave the UK? How about Gibraltar, Northern Ireland or Wales? Can the Scottish people get rid of the Gov in Westminster? How about brits under the age of 50? and so on...

The problem with Scotland is that they are beyond being realistic. Their independence referendum was about as bad as the one for the EU. Although they did go into the land of ludicrous. They "decided" that they will break away from the UK but that they would keep the pound sterling as their currency. They didn't ask they decided. Naturally we said no. They also "decided" that they would automatically remain a part of the EU. The EU turnaround and said don't be stupid the rules already exist for this and they clearly state that any new nation must have existed for a certain amount of time and have a proven track record economically you don't just get to join because you have "decided". They have made as much preparation to leave the UK as we had done to leave the EU in fact probably less given that all of their efforts for preparation were put into fantasies. Personally I think we should have had a vote as well on Scotland remaining or leaving and I'd have voted for them to leave because I'm getting fed up with the Scottish blaming England for all of their problems. The North of England suffers the same problems as Scotland the further north from London you go the worse things get. Scotland's problem is not England it's Westminster. If we are going to have an internal referendum of this sort it should be that the city of London becomes an independent state but the Scottish particularly Scottish politicians don't seem to have very much in the way of logical thought cells. The only thought they can conjure up is "let's get the bastards". The SNP state about the same rubbish that UKIP do.