UK forum members, BREXIT?

[Kjelt]

If you can't see the difference between WW2 where we were and still are very gratefull for your countries sacrifices and help to end it and all the next wars that were kind of started and escalated to insanity like Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, not to mention the meddling in South America, please don't , you will only make things worse. The only way to see and experience that is to have one on your own turf, then you will know and never want to be at war again.

[zapta]

If you can't see the difference between WW2 where we were and still are very gratefull for your countries sacrifices and help to end it and all the next wars that were kind of started and escalated to insanity like Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, not to mention the meddling in South America, please don't , you will only make things worse. The only way to see and experience that is to have one on your own turf, then you will know and never want to be at war again.

I see your point, it was OK to bail out the Nederland but not South Korea, Kuwait, South Vietnam or the Shia in Iraq.

That's why I like Trump's 'America first' approach, let those ungrateful people fight their own wars.

[tggzzz]

That's why I like Trump's 'America first' approach, let those ungrateful people fight their own wars.

Ah, how people forget "inconvenient" history.

When the UK was the dominant trading nation (19thC), we accepted the necessity of being the world's policeman, in order to maintain the trade.

The USA delayed entering WW2 for >2 years, until they could be sure that they would become the dominant trading nation afterward. Since they have chosen that role with its advantages, it looks childishly churlish if they don't like accepting the concomitant responsibilities.

In their favour, the USA has joined each war after WW2 early - some would argue too early, before it was necessary.

[rolycat]

Trump is a textbook demagogue: everything he says is designed to engage with people's emotions, fears and prejudices rather than their brains.

Very much the same tactics being used by both sides of the Brexit campaign, in fact.

[zapta]

Trump is a textbook demagogue: everything he says is designed to engage with people's emotions, fears and prejudices rather than their brains.

Very much the same tactics being used by both sides of the Brexit campaign, in fact.

The fact that you fail to see the rationale may say something about you, not necessarily about him

[Rick Law]

With Britain and USA are both dealing with our own similar soul searching, I suppose that makes BRExit and Trump Movement so closely linked.  Further, both Britain and USA are not connected to the Continental Europe that gave us some what of a separation from continental European views.

To correct some misinterpretation of events:
Trump is not proposing exclusion of Muslim from entering/immigrating to the USA.  Trump is proposing a temporary halt on Muslim entering the USA until we find a good way of vetting them.  (Key words are in bold)

Recent events:
- Orlando FL, shooter called the police to pledge his allegiance to ISIS.
- CIA Director just yesterday warned us about ISIS using "refugees" to infiltrate.
Looking just a bit further back, there was the Boston Bombing, San Bernardino Shooting...  and
Philadelphia police ambushed and shot.

Temporary halts of immigration from adversaries occur every time we are at war.  While we did not declare war on them, they certain have done so on us, by action and by words.  So being under attack, I see a temporary halt of movement from attackers as a perfectly reasonable action.

Related but somewhat of a side note: The last case cited (Philadelphia) is in my opinion why Americans are loosing trust with establishment.  I saw the press conference live on TV.  The police chief just finish saying what the shooter told investigators: "I follow Allah. I pledge my allegiance to the Islamic State and that's why I did what I did."  Yet within moments the Mayor came up to the lectern and say "the shooting had nothing to do with Islam."
(it was a lectern and not a podium - it drives me crazy when people keep calling a lectern a podium).

* * *
Reference/Souce:

Shooting in Orlando FL, shooter called the police to pledge his allegiance to ISIS.
^{https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/06/12/orlando-nightclub-shooting-about-20-dead-in-domestic-terror-incident-at-gay-club/?utm_term=.dcc49c61967a
"The gunman was identified as Omar Mateen, a 29-year-old security guard who was born in New York to Afghan parents. After his initial assault on the dance club, Mateen called 911 and pledged allegiance to the leader of the Islamic State, also known as ISIS, according to federal law enforcement officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the FBI investigation is unfolding. "}

CIA Director just yesterday warned us about ISIS using "refugees" to infiltrate.
^{http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/16/politics/john-brennan-cia-isis/
"Brennan warned that the group already is preparing more attacks, including by infiltrating refugees into western nations."}

Philadelphia police ambushed and shot.
^{http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/08/us/philadelphia-police-officer-shot/
A 30-year-old man who allegedly ambushed and shot a Philadelphia police officer sitting in his patrol car
...
the suspect said to investigators: "I follow Allah. I pledge my allegiance to the Islamic State and that's why I did what I did."
...
Mayor Jim Kenney said the shooting had nothing to do with Islam.}

[rolycat]

Trump is a textbook demagogue: everything he says is designed to engage with people's emotions, fears and prejudices rather than their brains.

Very much the same tactics being used by both sides of the Brexit campaign, in fact.

The fact that you fail to see the rationale may say something about you, not necessarily about him

Ad hominem attacks are always a great way to avoid addressing the issues.

[Rick Law]

Trump is a textbook demagogue: everything he says is designed to engage with people's emotions, fears and prejudices rather than their brains.

Very much the same tactics being used by both sides of the Brexit campaign, in fact.

What action did Trump took made him a demagogue?  What did he say that made him a demagogue?  Give me a quote please.

Remember, the Trump is the older guy who wants to get into the White House and not the younger one currently is in the White House.  Oh, also, Trump is the older MAN and not the older woman who used to be in the White House living quarters.

[Marco]

I see your point, it was OK to bail out the Nederland but not South Korea, Kuwait, South Vietnam or the Shia in Iraq.

Pushing South Korea into independence was a mistake in retrospect and hard to justify at the time.

Supporting Hussein in the Iran war was a mistake in retrospect and hard to justify at the time.

Supporting Diem in Vietnam was a mistake in retrospect, supporting his assassination more so and hard to justify at the time. On top of that by the time the US population tired of war, the war had created a monster much worthier of fighting, Pol Pot.

The wars are sometimes justifiable, but the roads we keep taking towards them are not.

Which brings us to the Ukraine. The EU and international NGOs had no economic advantage in trying to bribe Ukraine into a trade deal which would preclude joining the Russian Customs Union. Now supposedly we have the moral obligation to bail out the Ukraine, because some EU bureaucrats being pushed by god knows what international forces wanted to poke the bear. Also we have to keep poking harder and harder to prove we are not appeasers, appeasers begot us Hitler don't you know.

PS. painting Trump as some supreme demagogue is silly, he's a clown. For every appeal to emotion he makes Obama makes a couple more. The only difference is the emotions they appeal to, Obama appeals to the ones we are supposedly allowed to appeal to ... Trump not so much.

[zapta]

Ad hominem attacks are always a great way to avoid addressing the issues.

What issue, that all you see in Trump's campaign is an appeal to fear without any rationale base?

I think I did addressed it, it may be the result of your own projection.

This is not a personal attack.

[rstofer]

That's why I like Trump's 'America first' approach, let those ungrateful people fight their own wars.

Ah, how people forget "inconvenient" history.

When the UK was the dominant trading nation (19thC), we accepted the necessity of being the world's policeman, in order to maintain the trade.

The USA delayed entering WW2 for >2 years, until they could be sure that they would become the dominant trading nation afterward. Since they have chosen that role with its advantages, it looks childishly churlish if they don't like accepting the concomitant responsibilities.

In their favour, the USA has joined each war after WW2 early - some would argue too early, before it was necessary.

Regardless of our motivations back then, we don't have the will to get involved in Europe on a large scale basis.  We don't have a draft, there's no way in hell it could be restarted short of an attack on our shores by a nation state and we have lost the last 3 or 4 wars we have been in.  We have the tools but not the will to use them.

I don't think any nation should count on unconditional US support.  We're all in this separately!

And, yes, Trump is talking about exactly the things that concern his supporters.  Jobs, immigration, foreign relations.  Is he talking to people's fears?  Well, that depends on how you look at it.  There is nothing on this planet that I fear but there are a lot of things I view as wrong.  Pretty much the same list that Trump uses...

BREXIT brings a different dynamic to what the US might be willing to do.  I'm pretty sure we would commit whatever is necessary to assist the UK.  The US has always had the support of the UK.

[rolycat]

Trump is a textbook demagogue: everything he says is designed to engage with people's emotions, fears and prejudices rather than their brains.

Very much the same tactics being used by both sides of the Brexit campaign, in fact.

What action did Trump took made him a demagogue?  What did he say that made him a demagogue?  Give me a quote please.

As enjoyable as it might be, this thread is not the appropriate place for a protracted discussion of Donald Trump's verbal excretions.

[wraper]

I see it the opposite way. So far all other compaigns were an appeal to fear of Trump

[Rick Law]

...
...
Supporting Diem in Vietnam was a mistake in retrospect, supporting his assassination more so and hard to justify at the time. On top of that by the time the US population tired of war, the war had created a monster much worthier of fighting, Pol Pot.
...
...

Actually, I think the mistake was earlier than supporting Diem.  The mistake was not to see it as a war between the colony and the colonial master.  Instead we mistaken it as "war against communism."

My intepretation of history is that "Uncle Ho" really got closer to communism because they were the only ones willing to support him and we want to stand in the way to stop communism from gaining.  I think Ho would have been rather willing to give up communism to achieve nationhood.  So had we "play it right" and help him with "birth of a nation", there might have been a unified Vietnam under Ho and non-communist.

[Rick Law]

Trump is a textbook demagogue: everything he says is designed to engage with people's emotions, fears and prejudices rather than their brains.

Very much the same tactics being used by both sides of the Brexit campaign, in fact.

What action did Trump took made him a demagogue?  What did he say that made him a demagogue?  Give me a quote please.

As enjoyable as it might be, this thread is not the appropriate place for a protracted discussion of Donald Trump's verbal excretions.

If you cannot cite a quote, it is baseless.  Why then do you see this as an appropriate place for you to throw verbal bombs and baseless accusations?

[rolycat]

Trump is a textbook demagogue: everything he says is designed to engage with people's emotions, fears and prejudices rather than their brains.

Very much the same tactics being used by both sides of the Brexit campaign, in fact.

What action did Trump took made him a demagogue?  What did he say that made him a demagogue?  Give me a quote please.

As enjoyable as it might be, this thread is not the appropriate place for a protracted discussion of Donald Trump's verbal excretions.

If you cannot cite a quote, it is baseless. 

I could cite any number of quotes, as could anyone with access to a search engine. As I have already stated, this is not the appropriate venue.

Why then do you see this as an appropriate place for you to throw verbal bombs and baseless accusations?

The thread was already drifting into an acrimonious discussion of US politics, and I made a clearly fruitless effort to move from a discussion of Trump to the tactics of the Brexit crowd.

Discussing Brexit is interesting because the correct course of action is not at all obvious.

Discussing Trump is less so because there is a vast and largely unbridgeable gulf between his supporters and his detractors. "Discussions" inevitably become slanging matches.

[rstofer]

Discussing Brexit is interesting because the correct course of action is not at all obvious.

The UK voters need look no further than their own poet, John Milton:
"Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven."

Many of his writings were about political upheaval...

[rolycat]

Discussing Brexit is interesting because the correct course of action is not at all obvious.

The UK voters need look no further than their own poet, John Milton:
"Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven."

Is Satan really the most appropriate counsellor when searching for the right thing to do?

[dannyf]

- Orlando FL, shooter called the police to pledge his allegiance to ISIS.

Far more than that.

The president and his men emphasized that the gunman is home grown. Why let him into our home?

The president and his men emphasized that the gunman is radicalized. Well, by his religion. What does that say about Islam's teaching?

The president and his men emphasized that the gunman is mentally ill. Well, who systemically dismantled our institutional care for mentally ill patients?

The president and his men emphasized that the gunman used an automatic weapon. Well, would he be any less evil had he used a rifle or a handgun to kill those people?

...

The president and his men had blood on their hands.

[ez24]

Discussing Brexit is interesting because the correct course of action is not at all obvious.

Are there any non-bias sites explaining what Brexit is?
thanks

[retrolefty]

The president and his men emphasized that the gunman used an automatic weapon. Well, would he be any less evil had he used a rifle or a handgun to kill those people?

He did not have a automatic weapon. He had semi-automatic rifle and handgun. I hate it when people get the facts wrong or don't understand the technology vocabulary.

[rstofer]

Discussing Brexit is interesting because the correct course of action is not at all obvious.

Are there any non-bias sites explaining what Brexit is?
thanks

Maybe this:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/world/europe/britain-european-union-brexit.html?_r=0

Basically, over time, the UK leaves the EU.

[Rick Law]

Trump is a textbook demagogue: everything he says is designed to engage with people's emotions, fears and prejudices rather than their brains.

Very much the same tactics being used by both sides of the Brexit campaign, in fact.

What action did Trump took made him a demagogue?  What did he say that made him a demagogue?  Give me a quote please.

As enjoyable as it might be, this thread is not the appropriate place for a protracted discussion of Donald Trump's verbal excretions.

If you cannot cite a quote, it is baseless. 

I could cite any number of quotes, as could anyone with access to a search engine. As I have already stated, this is not the appropriate venue.

Why then do you see this as an appropriate place for you to throw verbal bombs and baseless accusations?

The thread was already drifting into an acrimonious discussion of US politics, and I made a clearly fruitless effort to move from a discussion of Trump to the tactics of the Brexit crowd.

Discussing Brexit is interesting because the correct course of action is not at all obvious.

Discussing Trump is less so because there is a vast and largely unbridgeable gulf between his supporters and his detractors. "Discussions" inevitably become slanging matches.

I have searched the web up and down, and as many others, we clearly see that your accusations are not supported by facts.

So, my point is - if it is not appropriate to cite quotes, then, it is not appropriate to say things that requires the support of a citation. 

[zapta]

The people that should know say Brexit will not happen. The odds for Leave are as high as 9/4.

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/eu-referendum/referendum-on-eu-membership-result

[rstofer]

The people that should know say Brexit will not happen. The odds for Leave are as high as 9/4.

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/eu-referendum/referendum-on-eu-membership-result

Well, in a few days we'll know.  Don't overlook the possibility of hidden anger and lying to pollsters.  People might not want to start a confrontation by admitting they'll vote to leave.  But they will...

It'll be fun to watch no matter how it comes out.  That's easy to say as a non-participant!