UK forum members, BREXIT?

[bitslice]

Sure. But that's the price to pay for freedom.

It's not really a freedom worth having when you are surrounded by people who get up your nose.

I don't know if that's the reason for school uniforms but if it is, it is the wrong reason.

It's not the reason, it is just a reason

What if others outlaw your ability to think the way you do because somehow it is offensive for them that you think that way?

That's essentially already happening, it's the Lefts way of censoring debate. Issues are not decided on cultural values, but on a "correct" way of thinking.

In a free country, you will have that freedom to think for yourself. I will defend your freedom to express anything, even if it is offensive to me.

I believe in achieving the most happiness, so if I think someone's cultural expression is better expressed in a country other than mine, then I'm going to suggest they go there or don't come here in the first place.
I don't plan on adapting my way of life to accommodate the feelings of a retarded culture's sky pixie.

If some members of a society has the ability to shut down speeches they consider "offensive", that's no longer a free society.

Didn't the USA recently ban the confederate flag from being displayed?

It's one of the few countries with a list of constitutional rights, yet these are continuously being questioned and apparently may be partly revoked at any time. It's a free society until someone says otherwise, a Damocles sword I could do without.

[R_Gtx]

It's one of the few countries with a list of constitutional rights, yet these are continuously being questioned and apparently may be partly revoked at any time. It's a free society until someone says otherwise, a Damocles sword I could do without.

Perhaps, Frank Zappa foresaw all this. From the allegorical rock opera:

Our studies have shown that this horrible force is so dangerous to society at large that laws are being drawn up at this very moment to stop it forever!
Cruel and inhuman punishments are being carefully described in tiny paragraphs so they won't conflict with the Constitution (which, itself, is being modified in order to accommodate THE FUTURE)

[RGB255_0_0]

So many people with Britain First views in here that I'm not sure I'm in a forum for intellectuals but rather retarded Neanderthals.

[nctnico]

Outside islands, we're watching football.

Uhhhh.. no... 

[SL4P]

What if France pulls out as well?
That would have to end the EU completely, or simply make Germany the centre of the 'rest of Europe'...

[nctnico]

What if France pulls out as well?

You have to ask yourself why the UK is on the verge of exiting the EU: it is the result of populistic politicians and not for solid economic reasons. It is very easy to blame politics for your own misery while you sit on your arse and expect to get paid every month. Creating a common enemy is a very easy trick for politicians who have no real solutions for any issue they bring up.

Time for a history lesson: The EU was preceeded by the EEC which was created in 1957 in order to streamline trade between the West European countries and the UK entered in 1973. Now think about how wise it is to throw something out which has worked for over 40 years. Due to increasing globalism it really is (more than ever) necessary for smaller countries to stick together.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community

[bitslice]

So many people with

If you want to hide behind a patronising generalist statement then that's fine, but to then assume a moral high ground simply because you live in Shoreditch?
Well, no.

 

Creating a common enemy is a very easy trick for politicians who have no real solutions for any issue they bring up.

I'm pretty sure every UK politician has avoided doing that?

Which is part of the problem, globalisation suits capitalism - any dissenting opinion of the 99% is irrelevant.

How do you quantify a cultural loss to a community that has changed beyond recognition, when every politician immediately and cynically re-frames your concern into an issue of sustainable funding instead, and then points the finger at the other guy.
Nobody cares about Cameron's benefit changes, it's a trivial amount of money. Nobody cares if Miliband thinks the NHS issue can be fixed if more money is thrown at it. Applying band aids and handing out victim compensation is not a fix while someone is still stabbing you in the face.
They are busily answering questions that nobody wants answered, because the actual concerns of working class people are conveniently being left off the agenda.

Remember last General election where every single day we were being told that the NHS was at the top of everyone's concern. Really? For the most part the NHS has been running fine for years.
Now where was immigration in that list of public concerns? - ...it was never mentioned by any of them.

Funny that, for an issue that has been bouncing around on forums for a decade, for it not even to be worthy of a mention during a general election.
And when the smelly voting proletariat embarrassingly brought up the issue live on camera... well, they were shut down as a bunch of neo nazi racists. Even some old granny up North was crucified on the altar of progressive correct thinking.

I note Corbyn had grudgingly admitted that it is now OK to be concerned, but as always the solution is to throw money at the problem, which wouldn't have been a problem in the first place were it not for Blair's social engineering experiments.

Amazing that we are faced with exiting Europe, simply because a political elite couldn't stomach discussing the truth with its own electorate.

[nctnico]

Still protest voting isn't going to solve the problems at hand. Cicciolina isn't known for her political achievements.

[doobedoobedo]

What if France pulls out as well?

You have to ask yourself why the UK is on the verge of exiting the EU: it is the result of populistic politicians and not for solid economic reasons. It is very easy to blame politics for your own misery while you sit on your arse and expect to get paid every month. Creating a common enemy is a very easy trick for politicians who have no real solutions for any issue they bring up.

Time for a history lesson: The EU was preceeded by the EEC which was created in 1957 in order to streamline trade between the West European countries and the UK entered in 1973. Now think about how wise it is to throw something out which has worked for over 40 years. Due to increasing globalism it really is (more than ever) necessary for smaller countries to stick together.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community

The EU's problem is that it was created without a democratically accountable legislature. That's not going to change. I want to live in a democracy, so I'm voting to leave.

If you think the EU is working then look at the state of the Euro economy and what it's done to the Southern nations.

[vodka]

Amazing : the   british anti-european says … “Brussels ens roba”! (Brussels rob us )

  The british are  pirating the creed of the National Socialism Catalonia

https://www.dolcacatalunya.com/2016/06/le-suena-algo-este-autobus/

[grumpydoc]

If you think the EU is working then look at the state of the Euro economy and what it's done to the Southern nations.

The problem is that the Euro was conceived with no good plan for handling the fact that the different economies which make up its membership are not homogeneous. The plan seemed to merely be "the economies will be the same" but I don't think any nation which entered truly met the criteria.

Without capital flows to help the poorer and/or less productive areas which are stuck with, to them, an overvalued currency. Easy credit turned out not to be the same

Perhaps it was hoped that labour flows would do the job - all those Spanish and Greek teenagers going to Germany for work then, presumably, sending Euros back down south but this does not seem to have happened. Perhaps the teenagers wanted to stay at home, perhaps it was difficult for Germany to accept them given its history.

As a "stronger" economy the UK should be supporting others in Europe - it benefits us all in the long term. Remember our gross contribution to Europe is only about 1% of GDP so it is not costing us a lot in relative terms.

[Zero999]

BUT if we want access to the common market we are likely to have to accept free movement of labour as well

That's a myth.

OK, so the "Swiss model". Which took at least 10 years to set up, covers far fewer trade sectors and agreements than we would need, required considerable concessions on the part of the Swiss and provides an ongoing legislative burden on the Swiss government. Oh, and I believe the EU has said it was so complex it would not entertain setting up anything like it again.

Or the Canadian model - which has taken ages to set up, is not complete, does not provide tariff free access to the market and does not cover services (which are essential ti the UK economy).

What makes you believe that if the UK left, the EU would suddenly start charging tariffs on UK goods? If they did that, then the UK would quite likely do the same to EU goods so it wouldn't achieve anything, especially given the EU sell more goods to the UK than they buy.

[grumpydoc]

What makes you believe that if the UK left, the EU would suddenly start charging tariffs on UK goods? If they did that, then the UK would quite likely do the same to EU goods so it wouldn't achieve anything, especially given the EU sell more goods to the UK than they buy.

Because the default position, unless an agreement has been reached is that tariffs will apply.

In practice I am sure we would try to reach an agreement but as I have said before, if we want tariff free access to the single market the cost is likely to be continued acceptance of the free movement of labour - we loose the ability to influence the EU but still get most of the baggage which is why I don't favour that type of deal.

[dannyf]

I don't plan on adapting my way of life to accommodate the feelings of a retarded culture's sky pixie.

So if your expression is offensive to others, would you support suppression of your offensive expression?

Didn't the USA recently ban the confederate flag from being displayed?

first of all, you cannot compare Europe to the US. The US lacks hundreds of years of "enlightenment", and its people are barbaric. The europeans, on the other hand, have been thoroughly enlightened and should hold itself to a higher, preferably much higher, standard.

secondly, what you said is true if you believe in the media.

[StuUK]

New poll today showing 55% in favor of exit. 

If I were a Brit, I think I'd be voting to exit.

I think you've got a more local and bigger decision to make soon...... 

[dannyf]

The EU's problem is that it was created without a democratically accountable legislature.

What you have in Europe and most other western countries can be better described as tyranny: tyranny of the majority.

[grumpydoc]

The EU's problem is that it was created without a democratically accountable legislature.

What you have in Europe and most other western countries can be better described as tyranny: tyranny of the majority.

A they say - democracy is the worst possible option, except for all the others.

[StuUK]

The EU's problem is that it was created without a democratically accountable legislature.

What you have in Europe and most other western countries can be better described as tyranny: tyranny of the majority.

A they say - democracy is the worst possible option, except for all the others.

It was Churchill:-

“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.”

[TheAmmoniacal]

The EU will make sure a brexit will turn out disastrous for Britain. The EU has to punish countries who leave, it's their only mechanism of survival.

[bitslice]

So if your expression is offensive to others, would you support suppression of your offensive expression?

For a culture to be successful there must be some kind of common identity, where there is a reason to support other people. You can't have a multitude of alien cultures who don't care about each other.
So you end up with a position of cultural relativity, where dispirit cultures all aim to create a homogeneous society, and then the likelihood of anyone finding something offensive is lessoned.

The alternative is a room full of SJW's who all claim to be a victim and who all demand to be the most offended.

The US lacks hundreds of years of "enlightenment", and its people are barbaric. The europeans, on the other hand, have been thoroughly enlightened and should hold itself to a higher, preferably much higher, standard.

I wouldn't class them as barbaric, a bit childlike and superficial maybe which perhaps gains them the politicians they asked for. Uniting a huge country while retaining some quite different groups is an achievement.
Up until recently I would have said Sweden was the most enlightened country in Europe, but no, their politicians are just as capable of lying as ours are.

[Zero999]

What makes you believe that if the UK left, the EU would suddenly start charging tariffs on UK goods? If they did that, then the UK would quite likely do the same to EU goods so it wouldn't achieve anything, especially given the EU sell more goods to the UK than they buy.

Because the default position, unless an agreement has been reached is that tariffs will apply.

In practice I am sure we would try to reach an agreement but as I have said before, if we want tariff free access to the single market the cost is likely to be continued acceptance of the free movement of labour - we loose the ability to influence the EU but still get most of the baggage which is why I don't favour that type of deal.

But it's not certain they will make free movement a condition of a trade agreement. If the UK left the EU and just said no to free movement, then the EU may refuse a deal or they may not, but don't make out that they definitely will. That would be a lie. You can't be certain about what will happen and even if the EU makes threats, it doesn't mean they'll carry them out.

Currently the UK is running a trade deficit with the EU and is exporting less. Imposing tariffs on one of your biggest customers will only cause more harm then good.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/10/uk-trade-deficit-hits-new-record-of-24bn-pounds-eu-referendum-brexit

[dannyf]

"For a culture to be successful t"

I don't think that's thee question here.

You support banning of offensive speeches. 

My question to you is simple: when someone considers your speech too be offensive, do you support banning of your own speech?

A very simple yes or no would do.

[grumpydoc]

What makes you believe that if the UK left, the EU would suddenly start charging tariffs on UK goods? If they did that, then the UK would quite likely do the same to EU goods so it wouldn't achieve anything, especially given the EU sell more goods to the UK than they buy.

Because the default position, unless an agreement has been reached is that tariffs will apply.

In practice I am sure we would try to reach an agreement but as I have said before, if we want tariff free access to the single market the cost is likely to be continued acceptance of the free movement of labour - we loose the ability to influence the EU but still get most of the baggage which is why I don't favour that type of deal.

But it's not certain they will make free movement a condition of a trade agreement. If the UK left the EU and just said no to free movement, then the EU may refuse a deal or they may not, but don't make out that they definitely will. That would be a lie. You can't be certain about what will happen and even if the EU makes threats, it doesn't mean they'll carry them out.

No I don't claim to know what will happen or what agreement will be reached - all anyone can do is guess. However we can look at the Swiss situation where the EU is making it clear they do not want to continue the current arrangements.

BUT, I can be certain that if a Norwegian style arrangement is reached in which the price of access is continued donation to the EU purse and acceptance of free movement of labour then we will have won nothing and lost participation and influence.

Even if we manage to negotiate access to the market we will still have to produce goods which adhere to the market regulations without the ability to influence those regulations.

Currently the UK is running a trade deficit with the EU and is exporting less. Imposing tariffs on one of your biggest customers will only cause more harm then good.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/10/uk-trade-deficit-hits-new-record-of-24bn-pounds-eu-referendum-brexit

All other things being equal you are probably right - but the EU is genuinely worried about the possibility of Brexit destabilising the Union and might well want it to go badly for us - I don't think a divorce will be as amicable as we would hope. Yes that is guessing again but very public figures have said that it will be difficult for us to access the market afterwards.

The bottom line is that I view a Norwegian style deal as too similar to what we have now but with the loss of any input to the process, I view a full pull out as potentially too destabilising and I view the possibility of the any future deals allowing us to pick and choose what we want as remote.

[Tandy]

...we loose the ability to influence the EU

We have never had the ability to influence the EU and that is the crux of the problem for me, the EU is not a proper democracy. Britain is not the only country that has issues with the direction of the EU but there is nothing any of the countries that have these concerns can do to change the direction of the EU. Britain even less so as we have a reputation as not being committed to the EU project so anything we have to say is not really taken seriously.

You are correct that the default position would be for tariffs the be applied, however that also means that our tariffs will automatically be applied to imports from the EU. It would be in the interests of both to come to a sensible arrangement. If the EU acts like a spoilt child and tries to punish Britain by not agreeing trade terms then that would just further accelerate the collapse of the EU as countries who trade with us get upset at loosing business due to the EU's spitefulness.

[batteksystem]

The way this poll is designed means that every non-UK will vote on option 3 anyway.