UK forum members, BREXIT?

[poorchava]

Somebody got the order of colors on the polish flag wrong lol. That's the flag of Monaco ? And why are Czechs portrayed as not liking muslims? I actually find it that Czech people are one of the most friendly nations ever, and to anyone. Bad satire I must say
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[Tandy]

I think the BMC Mini could be described as an innovative vehicle.

 

Selling it for less than it cost to make was the biggest innovation they came up with.

[zapta]

I think the BMC Mini could be described as an innovative vehicle.

 

Some of the top small wheel and folding bikes inventors are British, including Alex Moulton (Moulton), Mark Sanders (Strida), and Andrew Ritchie (Brompton).  IIRC, Alex Moulton also designed the suspension of the original Mini (which is a small wheel car).

My wife and I are big fans of small wheel folding bikes and we always have two in the trunk of the family car. We do have a Moulton and a Brompton but not a Strida which is less suitable for long distance rides.

How It's Made had an episode on the Brompton which is IIRC still manufactured in the UK. The rider at the beginning of the video is the inventor, Ritchie. 



With all those UK great bike designs, the market leader are still from the far east (e.g. Dahon china).

Edit: a top of the line Moulton bike costs £15,500.  This is not the model we have ;-)

[bitslice]

And why are Czechs portrayed as not liking muslims? I actually find it that Czech people are one of the most friendly nations ever, and to anyone. Bad satire I must say
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Because there are no Muslims in Czechoslovakia, maybe 20K or so, they know absolutely nothing about the issues.

Luckily their president is the only leader in Europe with a clue: "The experience of Western European countries which have ghettos and excluded localities shows that the integration of the Muslim community is practically impossible. Let them have their culture in their countries and not take it to Europe, otherwise it will end up like Cologne"

As the Arabs in Olomouc recently pointed out by screaming at the locals, “In 15 years you will be our slaves”

Do you really want that inside your country?

[daqq]

Because there are no Muslims in Czechoslovakia, maybe 20K or so, they know absolutely nothing about the issues.

A bit of a correction: Czechoslovakia has been gone for 23 years ( see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_Czechoslovakia ), being split into the Czech republic and Slovakia (my country, the one being portrayed by the ball with the axe and the eye patch for some reason), two completely separate political entities. You are referring to the Czech president in this. Our one is quite as clueless as most.

As to not knowing absolutely nothing about the issue, I would disagree, we have lots of experience with a group of people of whom too many cannot be assimilated (not for lack of trying on our part) and what joys having such a community brings. Though ours are not doped up on religion on top of everything.

[nctnico]

Because there are no Muslims in Czechoslovakia, maybe 20K or so, they know absolutely nothing about the issues.

Luckily their president is the only leader in Europe with a clue: "The experience of Western European countries which have ghettos and excluded localities shows that the integration of the Muslim community is practically impossible. Let them have their culture in their countries and not take it to Europe, otherwise it will end up like Cologne"

It is interesting to see how you undermine your point this bad!  First saying someone knows nothing and then quoting such a person to make a point.

For a country it is very important to make sure everybody has a fair chance to get a good education,a job and keep taps on what is going on within certain groups. In the NL we have far less problems with minorities due to various programs aimed at getting everyone to be(come) a functional member of society and continuously improving these programs. Oh, and don't pull any sh*t in the NL because you'll be used for target practise as some Moluccan train hijackers found out in 1977:

[bitslice]

A bit of a correction: Czechoslovakia has been gone for 23 years

Ah, my bad, thank you for the correction, I was unaware

It is interesting to see how you undermine your point this bad!  First saying someone knows nothing and then quoting such a person to make a point.

No, I was suggesting that a population that hadn't been exposed to the joys of enforced multiculturalism with islam may be unaware of what that means for their communities. I would expect a president to be more aware.

Look at Sweden, it was possibly once the nicest country in Europe with a fascinating culture that everyone in the UK has admired for decades. Now it's the poster child for cultural genocide.
Why? Insane leaders who conceal the truth and a media that does the same.

The UK has a zillion cultures, everyone gets along - this culture is different and nobody has been allowed to say this - until the issue boils over and suddenly we are faced with leaving Europe. Nobody truly wants this, we just want to stop being ignored.

[dannyf]

As the Arabs in Olomouc recently pointed out by screaming at the locals, “In 15 years you will be our slaves”

very soon, europeans will be minorities in their own countries and they will find out for themselves what multiculturalism really means.

The fear in the UK and the US and across some parts of Europe is real.

[vodka]

For north-european and center-european the muslim theme is very recent, but at my region has been discussed since 2008.

So much that created a politic party (PxC)at a Barcelona village(Vic) with the goal to terminate with the  muslims benefits (burka,hijab and social bonus) .

When the PxC achieved the second place for mayoralty from Vic with the promise to ban  the Burka at public place .
 
Automatlly all the  major cities that controlled by the PSC party began to legislate versus the hijab and burka at public place.

Electoral spot  of 2011 of PLATAFORMA PER CATALUNYA(PxC) - Josep Anglada
https://youtu.be/BKr9yxDDqr0

Anglada scream : "the vast majority of immigrants on our home  are rabble,rabble ,rabble"

https://youtu.be/Llu6ntrOF0s?t=1m18s

Anglada vs Mohammed -Catalunya Opina

https://youtu.be/a6k8bdZp6nI

[Karel]

In the NL we have far less problems with minorities ...

There are lots of problems in The Netherlands with minorities, specially with moroccans.

[zapta]

For north-european and center-european the muslim theme is very recent, but at my region has been discussed since 2008.

So much that created a politic party (PxC)at a Barcelona village(Vic) with the goal to terminate with the  muslims benefits (burka,hijab and social bonus) .

I am sure it was discussed much earlier at your region.  ;-)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_Caliphate

[vodka]

There are lots of problems in The Netherlands with minorities

How many minorities  have you the Nerthelands?

Because we have problems with the arabs(moroccans,algerians) ,with africans(Nigerans,Camerun and Senegalese), with south-american(Colombian , Dominican and equatorians), with european(romain ,gipsies romain ,albano-kosovar,georgians)

[vodka]

I am sure it was discussed much earlier at your region.

Pero el nuevo gobernador musulmán, Al-Hurr ibn Abd ar-Rahman al-Thaqafi, reforzado con las medidas antes citadas, realizó sucesivas campañas, desde el otoño de 716 y en los dos años siguientes, contra este reducto visigodo. Desde Zaragoza atacó y sometió las ciudades de Huesca, Barbastro, Lérida, Tarragona, Barcelona y, finalmente, Gerona. La resistencia de Tarragona debió ser tenaz pues, tras su conquista, los musulmanes dieron muerte a toda la población que había sobrevivido al asedio, y destruyeron la ciudad, incluidas sus iglesias y numerosos monumentos.

But the new Muslim governor, Al-Hurr ibn Abd al-Rahman al-Thaqafi, reinforced with the measures before quoted , he carried out successive campaigns, from the autumn of 716 and in the next two years, against this Visigoth stronghold. From Zaragoza he attacked and subdued the cities of Huesca, Barbastro, Lleida, Tarragona, Barcelona and finally Gerona.
 Tarragona (significant capital during Empire Rome)resistance had to be tough because, after its conquest, the Muslims killed the entire population that had survived the siege, and destroyed the city, including its numerous churches and monuments.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquista_musulmana_de_la_pen%C3%ADnsula_ib%C3%A9rica

Furthermore Tarragona remained depopulated and no-man's land for 4 centuries until the  year 1116 when the Condes de Barcelona reconquered the city, and they declared the  city as "destroyed and  abandoned  , without cultives neither habitant  (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principado_de_Tarragona).
 

[NivagSwerdna]

Please can we get this thread back to BrExit? 

The issue isn't any particular race/culture, those are big issues but not primarily a BrExit concern, the issue is UNCONTROLLED freedom of movement regardless of race/religion.
Unemployment in Greece, Spain, low living standards in newly joined countries, .... lots of pressure on migration.

David Cameron is now resorting to scaring grannies into thinking their pensions are at risk, as a one time Conservative voter I now regard him as a lying scum bag, I hope my fellow citizens rid us of him ASAP.

To remain is insane.

[zapta]

... the issue is UNCONTROLLED freedom of movement regardless of race/religion.

Care to explain?

[fubar.gr]

As to not knowing absolutely nothing about the issue, I would disagree, we have lots of experience with a group of people of whom too many cannot be assimilated (not for lack of trying on our part) and what joys having such a community brings. Though ours are not doped up on religion on top of everything.

Gypsies?

[bitslice]

the issue is UNCONTROLLED freedom of movement regardless of race/religion.

Personally I'm OK with the uncontrolled immigration of Jewish Scientists and Polish carpenters.
Goats herders with AK47's from Allahbangistan, no, they can all naff off.
If you can't build a stable country entirely because of your chosen religion, then what the hell use are you to a European country?

Accept people who are probably OK, reject people who have a 1,500 year history of being violent supremacists. It's no more insightful than a Trump policy, but if it had been applied to America in time then 50 LGBT people would still be around today.

The only thing more dangerous are Progressive Liberals who look the other way.

[dannyf]

For north-european and center-european the muslim theme is very recent, but at my region has been discussed since 2008.

Going back more into the history, you will find more experience with muslim.

When the PxC achieved the second place for mayoralty from Vic with the promise to ban  the Burka at public place .

it is wrong to ban expression, verbal or via fashion choices. people should have the right to say what they believe, no matter how offensive it may be. The same bur burka.

as long as they don't violate the law and respect others' rights. Otherwise, the full force of the law should apply.

[grumpydoc]

Not much will change. It will be economic suicide to immediately start taxing all exports.

It is, indeed, quite possible that this would be true.

Given that the UK is only barely "in" anyway, a rapid negotiation of a Norwegian style agreement to access the single market would, arguably, not be a big change.

The problem I have here is that we loose participation influence in Europe without any of the gains that are claimed for leaving - why, exactly, would we want to do that?

If you actually want to block free movement of people, make up our own rules on trade, stop contributing to European finances etc then we have to distance ourselves much further from Europe - that approach also has its problems. For one thing it may well destabilise an increasingly fragile Union. With all of the problems that face the world at present the last thing we want is an unstable Europe on our doorstep.

The Brexit campaign seems to miss the fact that we live in a closed system so it is rather hard not to be caught out by inintended repercussions from your actions.

The Middle East is a mess but it is something of a separate issue - except for the stress it puts on the union.

[R_Gtx]

To my mind, Brexit can be likened to divorce from a bullying, lying, spendthrift, moreover a partner who steadfastly refuses to mend their ways. Like all breakups, there will initially be some acrimony and pecuniary penalties, but they will soon be overcome, and in time forgotten as Britain forges her way into the future, footloose and fancy free. Maybe the EU will see the error of its ways, I sincerely hope it does for the sake of those remaining countries, who do not follow suit with their own exit.

[bitslice]

it is wrong to ban expression, verbal or via fashion choices. people should have the right to say what they believe, no matter how offensive it may be. The same bur burka.

Would you allow the KKK to run around with their white pointy robes on, or would you accept that black people are going to find that a bit unsettling?

Clothing can also be a symbol of cultural pressure, and if your community sees women not wearing a burka as slutty, then you don't have a lot of choice.
Avoiding unwanted cultural pressure over dress is partly why we retain school uniforms, so poor people are not left out.

I am not OK with people choosing to talk to me through a letterbox, it is offensive (to my cultural background)

(edit:)
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Democracy seems to fail when the only choices presented are just different versions of the same disaster.

[zapta]

As to not knowing absolutely nothing about the issue, I would disagree, we have lots of experience with a group of people of whom too many cannot be assimilated (not for lack of trying on our part) and what joys having such a community brings. Though ours are not doped up on religion on top of everything.

Gypsies?

Australians.

[NivagSwerdna]

... the issue is UNCONTROLLED freedom of movement regardless of race/religion.

Care to explain?

Simple, too many people.  No school places, no doctors appointments, no hospital places, too few houses, too many applicants chasing jobs.  The truth is that the public sector is drowning in debt so they can't expand (even if there was sufficient green-belt to decimate), so increasing numbers of people just leads to contention for services.

[dannyf]

Would you allow the KKK to run around with their white pointy robes on,

Absolutely, as we do today, in some 'un-enlightened' countries outside of the 'enlightened' europe,

or would you accept that black people are going to find that a bit unsettling?

Sure. But that's the price to pay for freedom.

Avoiding unwanted cultural pressure over dress is partly why we retain school uniforms, so poor people are not left out.

I don't know if that's the reason for school uniforms but if it is, it is the wrong reason.

I am not OK with people choosing to talk to me through a letterbox, it is offensive.

What if others outlaw your ability to think the way you do because somehow it is offensive for them that you think that way?

In a free country, you will have that freedom to think for yourself. I will defend your freedom to express anything, even if it is offensive to me.

A good example of JK Rowling's recent comments about Trump having the right to express his views no matter how offensive such views are to her.

If some members of a society has the ability to shut down speeches they consider "offensive", that's no longer a free society.

"free" really means free.

[jancumps]

Our biggest worry at the moment is that you don't vote for exit.
Or that you do vote for exit and then don't go.
The BrEXIT may be a big thing in the UK. Outside islands, we're watching football.