UK forum members, BREXIT?

[nctnico]

Well the US went from Indian tribes to European and is now moving towards becoming Latino / Hispanic.

[Howardlong]

If I could be reasonably sure that the EU had any chance of reforming itself then I'd vote remain. As it stands now, it is on a stated course of further fiscal parity and defence integration among other federalist aims. Its policy making is now largely around maintaining an army of self-serving politicians and their henchfolk.

Just a few weeks ago the EU had a golden opportunity to show they could change, and attempt a compromise with Cameron, but instead he was sent home with barely crumbs. That short sightedness and arrogance turned out to be a much more dangerous game of poker than they or anyone else expected.

The negativity and politics of fear common in the debate at large I personally find very patronising, rather than concentrating on the issues, and I am sure that too is part of the extraordinary polls we're seeing.

Putting up foreign politicians like Obama, Merkel and today Schäuble is also hardly the way to encourage already disenfranchised floating voters concerned about foreign influence at all levels.

As an earlier poster suggested, the EU needs a bloody nose administering, and needs to fundamentally adjust its course if it is to survive. Regrettably, the only way the EU is capable of changing is to give it a clear message by leaving. For their own survival they'll have to change, and sharpish too, if they are to avoid the wider domino effect predicted.

[zapta]

Well the US went from Indian tribes to European and is now moving towards becoming Latino / Hispanic.

Yep, with very drastic cultural differences. If you are OK living in any culture then you are good to go.

BTW, I would take the US as the gold standard, we have our own problems, some  are similar to Europe but with local variations and at different scale.

[vodka]

Everyone in Europe knows that EU = Germany and Mr. Schaeuble  ...

You are wrong ,Merkel and Schaeuble are  sheepdogs of the Europe Lords that have to control to the lambs. But they are doing very bad work and soon they will be retired

The worse thing that could do the british goverment is to get the pimp and to defy to Europe Lords and USA Lords(Remember that UK are ambassadors and the head beach from USA  at Europe ).

And if i was one Europe Lord will grant the exit without celebrating the referendum , at less of week i will put tariffs and cut-off the  UK right's to CEE.

Consequences, the europe will lose the UK market's , but the UK will lose the importants trading corporations from the London City ,and these will go to Frankfurt ,and other place from europe.
the last  big factories and corporations  that still stayed, maybe they will move out the UK to Ireland or Spain . The worst of all, the devaluation of the pound sterling to 40%.

How many time could the british government support without the people will go to revolution?

One thing to British,anybody is indispensable   

https://youtu.be/T1L6jQ0Pfrw?t=1m8s

[dannyf]

I would take the US as the gold standard

For what?

For its welfare programs? for its corrupt politicians and ever expanding governments? highly charged political environment? non-union employees can be defined as union members by government decree (NJ)? or people of Indian and Chinese heritage can be defined out of "Minority" (CA)? ...

If anyone told me 20 years ago someone like Sanders would give Clinton a run for her money in the US, I would have laughed him/her off.

If you want to know as a society how far left we have come, take out the two parties platforms in the 1950s or the 1960s and compare them vs. now. The republican party today is far more liberal than the democratic party then.

That should tell you all you need to know about the US.

[Marco]

values, etc change rapidly so there is little use in preserving those.

This is nihilism.

Brexit, non brexit, thermonuclear war, genocide ... all equally valid under given sets of values.

[dannyf]

Consequences, the europe will lose the UK market's , but the UK will lose the importants trading corporations from the London City ,and these will go to Frankfurt ,and other place from europe.
the last  big factories and corporations  that still stayed, maybe they will move out the UK to Ireland or Spain .

Dire concequencies. The UK was such a barbaric place before EU came to her rescue,

The worst of all, the devaluation of the pound sterling to 40%.

Empty words that you don't even believe, unless you put all your money, your parents money, your kids education funds, your retirement, and mortgaged your house to bet on that devaluation.

Making predictions is easy, even a monkey can do it. it is another story to put your money where your mouth is.

[doobedoobedo]

thermonuclear war, genocide

We've only been told those will happen if we vote to leave.

[daqq]

Frankly, I am surprised how much the anti Brexit argument are focused on economic benefits, ignoring aspects such as sovereignty, culture, history, tradition and values,

Culture, history, values, etc change rapidly so there is little use in preserving those. A country is nothing more than a piece of land and the people in it listening to a centralised government. Maybe you feel connected to your fellow countrymen but that is all made up to keep you quiet. The 'us-them' thinking pattern is a very easy way to control people.

Dunno, I for one would very much like my future grand kids not to be forced to conform to, say, medieval dress codes and get stoned/beheaded if they don't, all in the name of someones imaginary friend imported from the Middle East. As such I'd very much prefer to leave our current way of life intact.

[Howardlong]

the UK will lose the importants trading corporations from the London City ,and these will go to Frankfurt

Exactly the same fears were spread 20 years ago about the UK not adopting the Euro, and for some time I remember it was quite unsettling in the City until it was realised that it made bugger all difference, in fact quite the opposite.

I was never in favour of the Euro either, and that was the same thin-end-of-the-wedge concerns which have since come to bear fruit.

[nctnico]

Frankly, I am surprised how much the anti Brexit argument are focused on economic benefits, ignoring aspects such as sovereignty, culture, history, tradition and values,

Culture, history, values, etc change rapidly so there is little use in preserving those. A country is nothing more than a piece of land and the people in it listening to a centralised government. Maybe you feel connected to your fellow countrymen but that is all made up to keep you quiet. The 'us-them' thinking pattern is a very easy way to control people.

Dunno, I for one would very much like my future grand kids not to be forced to conform to, say, medieval dress codes and get stoned/beheaded if they don't, all in the name of someones imaginary friend

Interestingly the western society wasn't very different only a couple of hundred years ago. Therefore I'm inclined to believe the people from the middle-east will adapt rapidly. After all the way the western society is now is much safer to live in and in the end people want to feel safe and raise their kids.

[zapta]

...
I'm inclined to believe the people from the middle-east will adapt rapidly...

Good luck.

[nctnico]

Exactly the same fears were spread 20 years ago about the UK not adopting the Euro, and for some time I remember it was quite unsettling in the City until it was realised that it made bugger all difference, in fact quite the opposite.

Perhaps but you have to ask yourself whether the UK could have done better with the euro instead of the pound. When dealing with UK suppliers and customers there is always the risk of the exchange rate going up and down so I very much like to deal in euro. Therefore I'd rather deal with a German supplier than one from the UK. Either way someone has to pay for the exchange rate risk which is where a supplier in a Euro-country definitely has an advantage.

[Marco]

Interestingly the western society wasn't very different only a couple of hundred years ago. Therefore I'm inclined to believe the people from the middle-east will adapt rapidly. After all the way the western society is now is much safer to live in and in the end people want to feel safe and raise their kids.

Hand outs don't seem to promote progressiveness in Islamic society, not in the west, not in the oil rich nations. Quite the contrary in fact, they use the free time to become more orthodox and procreate. Much the same behavior can be seen with Haredi, though with less violence to the host society if left alone.

In the end they might reinvent themselves, in the mean time they will demand welfare and wage jihad.

[wraper]

Frankly, I am surprised how much the anti Brexit argument are focused on economic benefits, ignoring aspects such as sovereignty, culture, history, tradition and values,

Culture, history, values, etc change rapidly so there is little use in preserving those. A country is nothing more than a piece of land and the people in it listening to a centralised government. Maybe you feel connected to your fellow countrymen but that is all made up to keep you quiet. The 'us-them' thinking pattern is a very easy way to control people.

Dunno, I for one would very much like my future grand kids not to be forced to conform to, say, medieval dress codes and get stoned/beheaded if they don't, all in the name of someones imaginary friend

Interestingly the western society wasn't very different only a couple of hundred years ago. Therefore I'm inclined to believe the people from the middle-east will adapt rapidly. After all the way the western society is now is much safer to live in and in the end people want to feel safe and raise their kids.

You should visit some Muslim ghetto in France to see how well they adapt.

[IanB]

Therefore I'm inclined to believe the people from the middle-east will adapt rapidly.

Actually, the opposite seems to be true. When comparing values between Pakistani immigrants living in the UK and Pakistan itself, it appears that Pakistan has moved on while the immigrants in the UK have been holding fast to the values they brought with them decades ago.

We can see a parallel of this in the way that the USA is still influenced by religious and cultural values from 17th century Europe in a way that is unrecognizable to Europeans from modern times.

It will take people hundreds of years to adapt, and most of us can't wait that long.

[bitslice]

Interestingly the western society wasn't very different only a couple of hundred years ago. Therefore I'm inclined to believe the people from the middle-east will adapt rapidly. After all the way the western society is now is much safer to live in and in the end people want to feel safe and raise their kids.

Christianity went through a reformation which transformed European culture, that's never ever going to happen to Islam.
The people trotting off to join ISIS and expecting burqas to be worn are not 1st generation immigrants, they are the 3rd generation lot.
If Western society suited them then there wouldn't be a problem, the fact that closed Muslim ghettos exist in every European city says otherwise.
If our schools and cultural/civic values suited them then there wouldn't be 140 Islamic Faith schools in the UK, schools that regularly get condemned by Ofsted as promoting an extreme form of Islam.

This is the problem, the Left sees the immigration of a minority religious group and expects it to be exactly like when the Sikhs arrived from Uganda. They fundamentally do not understand the medieval culture these people bring with them.
The same Socialist/Marxist Left wing party in the UK has a large number of high profile anti-Semitic members, Islam is a natural bedfellow for them. That's a fast route to political power for a religion that's essentially a Totalitarian political system in it's own right.

[Marco]

The same Socialist/Marxist Left wing party in the UK has a large number of high profile anti-Semitic members

They were mostly just anti-Israel, they become anti-semites after enough character assassination comes their way for having that view. If you are going to be called one regardless why even try to stick your neck out and piss off Muslim voters by battling proper anti-semitism?

[bitslice]

They were mostly just anti-Israel, they become anti-semites after enough character assassination comes their way for having that view.

There's a number of Muslim MPs who "say" they are only anti-Israel because of the Palestinian issue, the fact is many Arabs hate the Palestinians. They simply hate the Israelis because they are Jews, just as they hate the Jews in France and the Jews in the UK.

[Marco]

Be that as it may, if you keep calling the bleeding hearts who are true believers about stuff like BDS and right of return anti-semites you are going to turn it into a self-fulfilling prophecy. Don't drive them into the arms of the Muslims, it's not like there aren't plenty of jews saying the same thing.

[dannyf]

We can see a parallel of this in the way that the USA is still influenced by religious and cultural values from 17th century Europe in a way that is unrecognizable to Europeans from modern times.

So since the 17th century, those "enlightened" Europeans still managed to produce the only two world wars this planet has seen, a few genocides, a holocaust, a dude named Hitler, some really good propagandists, almost got wiped out by the Nazis, and then by the Red Army, if not for those "unrecognizable" and barbaric Americans, and still got their cities connected by ghettos and no-go zones. Didn't I hear a recent story of a Paris waitress getting attacked for serving "religiously in-appropriate" drinks on Ramadan?

I would rather that you save your "enlightenment" for yourself.

[bitslice]

I would rather that you save your "enlightenment" for yourself.

I don't think it was meant as a wholly negative cultural quirk, because all it boils down to in the USA is a political debate over abortion and dinosaurs.

In the UK our people get their throats slit and our children raped over this retarded medieval shit.

[rolycat]

We can see a parallel of this in the way that the USA is still influenced by religious and cultural values from 17th century Europe in a way that is unrecognizable to Europeans from modern times.

So since the 17th century, those "enlightened" Europeans still managed to produce the only two world wars this planet has seen, a few genocides, a holocaust, a dude named Hitler, some really good propagandists, almost got wiped out by the Nazis, and then by the Red Army, if not for those "unrecognizable" and barbaric Americans, and still got their cities connected by ghettos and no-go zones. Didn't I hear a recent story of a Paris waitress getting attacked for serving "religiously in-appropriate" drinks on Ramadan?

I would rather that you save your "enlightenment" for yourself.

 

No you wouldn't.

Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were active participants in the Age of Enlightenment in Europe, and its ideals were incorporated into the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States.

The good old US of A has also engaged in one or two dubious practices since the 17th century, in case you have forgotten.

Do remove that sizeable chip from your shoulder and cease belabouring Europeans with America's not entirely altruistic entry into the Second World War.

 

[chris_leyson]

Since the industrial revolution entire communities have been built to serve an industry, be it mining iron ore or coal, steel manufacture, ship building and so on. These new communities were mostly made up from "migrants" from the agricultural industry or from other sectors and from other countries. When the old heavy industries disappear and nothing has replaced them due to a lack of long term government planning and investment, people are going to move on, well at least those who can will move on.

Fast forward to the 50's and 60's, manufacturing industrial boom, import cheap labour from the West Indies and India to fulfill manufacturing capacity. Hence that's why we have very well established and integrated West Indian and Asian communities.
In time, the manufacturing industries that needed to import Commonwealth citizens in the first place have disappeared and a lack of investment and long term planning now leaves these communities with nothing.

It's probably the same scenario through much of post industrial Europe especially eastern Europe now that the Soviet Union has collapsed and left poorer nations to fend for themselves. It's no wonder people migrate and the disenfranchised become extremist.

I think our economic problems are our own making and very little do do with EU membership. In or out you still have to address the issues of long term planning and a decline in manufacturing.

[nctnico]

I think our economic problems are our own making and very little do do with EU membership. In or out you still have to address the issues of long term planning and a decline in manufacturing.

At least Thatcher (finally) got rid of a lot of labour intensive subsidized industries in the 80's and getting the tax system back on the rails. I still recall the massive riots on the news. The decline of UK manufacturing also has a lot to do with lack of quality. UK built cars are infamous for that and a prime example of how easy it is to sink an entire industry due to people not being motivated to do a good job.