UK forum members, BREXIT?

[KJDS]

Please welcome us back Kiwis, Ozzies, and Hosers. Let's not forget the West Indies, Hong Kong, India, most of Africa, and all the other former colonies (USA too!). Let's get back to a commonwealth trading partnership without EU intervention. 

Don't come running back to us,bleating about "Our common British heritage"---we've moved on!
You let us know where we belonged in the pecking order back in the 1970s.

I'm more concerned that our rugby team continues to make the progress we've shown in the last few months.

[Fraser]

Wilfred,

My father was a 'war child' and after 1945 there was great austerity in the UK. Rationing of food. National Service and the need to gain a decent education in order to get a good job. He worked hard to achieve and retired from senior management job. Nothing came easy for him. I have never heard him whinge or complain though. They bred them tough in those days. I benefitted from his example and also worked hard to do a job that was, for me, a vocation. The salary was poor but I worked for my country. And it's betterment. That was enough.

You understand that I feel annoyed when I see whinging students on the TV saying people like me and the 'old' just ruined their future ! I flipping paid towards their darned education and worked towards a better world for them for heavens sake.

Yes the finances of our country are in the toilet and it would appear that we have become 'soft' and very materialistic during my life, but that is why change is needed. New challenges that our younger generation should rise to and regain their spirit of adventure that my generation seem to have lost. Face the fear. It worked for me

Fraser

[Tandy]

There are young people protesting that they have been taken out of the EU when they didn't want that. They are clearly frustrated that they were outvoted by older generations into doing something they didn't want. They seemingly don't know how democracy works or don't want to live in one.

The thing I find most ironic is that the EU imposes things on these same young people all the time and yet none of them get a say in those decisions and that doesn't seem to bother them? At least they had an opportunity to vote and now they will have a greater influence over their own future by having the power to hold the lawmakers of this country to account.

I think one of the reasons for the difference in voting is that young people are perhaps a little more idealistic than older people. I think life experience makes us realise that thing rarely live up to expectations. Political promises, new technologies offer so much but only a small number of them deliver on those promises.

The thing that I find most difficult to get my head around is the Scotland vote, a significant proportion of Scottish people are unhappy about the way England has such a big influence over the governance of Scotland and would like to have more control over their own affairs. Why is it they don't feel the same about the EU?

[Kalvin]

Has Her Majesty the Queen said anything yet, as the Britain got back its independence? If the vote's result was good for the Britain, Mr. Cameron should become Sir Cameron.

[apis]

[Kalvin]

Now they must learn to deal with a new future. It will take time to adjust.

I guess those were also the exact comforting words that was said in the "freed" countries after the WWII. Interestingly enough they wanted to give back their "freedom" as soon as it was possible. Of course, those countries didn't have the luxury to get a vote after WWII.

[jitter]

I do not normally comment on political matters as everyone has their own view and things can get heated quickly. However this is a friendly forum so I will risk it.

I am 48 and voted to leave the EU. Some may dislike me for that but hey, we live in a true democracy and we have just witnessed that in this referendum.

I read that some youngsters are angry as they think they have lost their future? This quite frankly annoys me. These persons seem to take the view that everything should be handed to them on a plate with no challenges. The U.K. appears to have bred a generation that contains some real pussies (not all though). The military have noted that we in the UK have become 'soft' and many applicants cannot pass the basic entry tests they carry out. If I want a job in the UK or a foreign country, I will work for it and ensure such a company wants to employ me. Being in the EU is not essential for such. Some youngsters need to grow up and realise you have to earn a good life, it is not free or a right.

On a much more serious note, Europe has been relatively peaceful. NATO is still active and effective. I do not see Europe suffering a decline into war any time soon. Which is good. BUT be aware that major events such as World War has instigated significant change, hopefully for the better. I hate War and consider such a failure as lives are lost. Those who disagree with what we, in the UK, have just done should maybe consider this a much better alternative to a War mixing things up? We may have lobbed a metaphorical hand grenade into the heart of the EU, but this could be what is needed to force a review of its operation by its members. If the EU was not so disfunctional and intent on borging all members into a 'superstate' I would not have voted to leave. Sadly, the U.K. May have effectively had to fall on its metaphorical sword in order to force changes that may not actually benefit it.

As to us in Blighty and our future...... We are a very old and generally sensible sea faring nation that used to run an empire that reached across the world. Our blood stock is strong and adventurous at its heart, we have just lost our way a little in recent decades. Yes British nationals have become 'Soft' and lost their sense of adventure and discovery. We will have to change, and I believe it will be for our betterment. I do not want us to become an Empire again as much occurred that I am not proud of, BUT I do want us to regain our national pride and self confidence. We can indeed be Great again and hopefully inspire others to be so as well. Great Britain can be an important player in world politics and economies, if allowed to rediscover itself and its heart of adventure.

I truly hope that the EU realises that the UK does not dislike our European friends, It is just that more than half of us believe the EU needs significant reform and should not necessarily be a 'Big Brother' that cannot effectively be negotiated with by members. The hysteria and anger that appears to have followed our decision is understandable but still disappointing. A bit like a divorce..... Emotions run high, but calm will return.

Finally, I watched an interview with a Polish EU representative (Commissioner?) yesterday. All went well until he thought the interview was over. Afterwards he said, In précis.......

"My father flew as a Polish pilot in the RAF during WWII..... Do not expect the Polish nation to come to your aid in the future! "

He said he was very angry with the U.K.

Oh dear. Emotions running high and he needs to stop and think about what his father was actually fighting for in the RAF....... Democracy and the defeat of a country that wanted a superstate ! His father fought for freedom, not specifically for Great Britain. I might add I have no issue with Germany or its population. We all have regrettable actions in our long histories, Britain included. It was very sad to see a so called intelligent Polish representative making such a silly and inaccurate statement though. I have a great liking for Poland and hope that the population does not think like this one chap. We are still in NATO and would defend the rights of its member nations. Why would EU politics ruin that relationship ?

I will get off my soap box now but please, my European friends and disgruntled 'remain' voters, consider this the beginning of a great new era in Europe that did not take a major War for it to come about. Be thankful for what we have and the adventure that we will be embarking upon.

And most importantly, be good to eachother, no matter the political views or beliefs.

Fraser

Well said. I think everything in here I could agree on.

I'm not big on politics either, I like to keep looking at the bigger picture and in the longer run and I have a feeling that most politicians only look at their corner and not far ahead at all. Leave the real problems to be solved by the successor.
You may have noticed that right now I'm not very positive about the long term challenges humanity is still trying to ignore. But since "nature" has no such concepts as good or bad just mechanisms that will find a balance, those will inevitably come.

Political changes are needed, and the UK leaving the EU might just be the start of the necessary change, that is if the motivations to leave the EU were legitimate ones. Not just in the EU, all over the world.

Yes that will lead to disappointment and even resentment from the "other side", it's only natural. But in the end, like with an unhappy marriage, parting ways might be the better choice.

The least I hope will happen is that the EU beaurocrats scratch behind their ears and ask themselves if maybe they had a hand in what has happened. Or will they put the blame all on the UK (if so, I'd also be voting to leave the EU should it come to a referendum over here).

[Fraser]

Wilfred,

Indeed, I see your point. Let us hope that time will heal the rift that appears to have occurred in the UK between the leave and stay population.

My father said he is more concerned about Northern Ireland and the possibility of renewed troubles there's. Having discussed it with him and seen some television interviews, I share his concerns. Scotland is unlikely to take up arms against England, but history shows that elements within N. Ireland are more than capable of doing so

Fraser

[AndyC_772]

Indeed, I see your point. Let us hope that time will heal the rift that appears to have occurred in the UK between the leave and stay population.

I'm sure it will. After every general election we end up with a government that most people didn't vote for. Somehow we manage.

[MK14]

I think you're giving the public too much credit. It seems people didn't know what they were voting for or that their vote even counted if you go by some of the videos of interviewers talking to randomers on the street. It's nuts to think the people voting for Big Brother or I'm A Celebrity are the ones deciding on such an important matter. 

I agree, many people lack much knowledge about the situation. Many people either dislike politics and/or are completely fed up with the current political situation (domestically in the UK).
Most seem to agree, that no one really knows what will/would happen beforehand, if we had chosen Leave or Remain.

It's a bit like having a big brother or talent show, where we DON'T get to see the singers/actors/show and know little about them, until AFTER the voting finishes.

I have been somewhat disappointed, with how little the EU seemed to do, to present its case to the UK public. Maybe there was some regulation(s), preventing it ?

[G0HZU]

I think you're giving the public too much credit. It seems people didn't know what they were voting for or that their vote even counted if you go by some of the videos of interviewers talking to randomers on the street. It's nuts to think the people voting for Big Brother or I'm A Celebrity are the ones deciding on such an important matter. 

Yes, it's kind of reckless (ludicrous?) to allow the public to decide stuff like this. I've had this argument at work and some of my colleagues still think it's the 'only' way to decide it because that is the way democracy works.

Imagine if problems associated with science and the laws of physics were decided by a referendum. I can imagine an amusing Monty Python sketch covering this with various characters interviewed on a typical high street in Britain.

[jitter]

I have been somewhat disappointed, with how little the EU seemed to do, to present its case to the UK public. Maybe there was some regulation(s), preventing it ?

That's a good question. Was there made any effort to win people over? If not, why not?

[G7PSK]

The vitriolic respose of the younger generation was stir'd  up and just smoke. The students I saw interviewed on TV were from second rate universities, so what's the difference they can still go and flip burgers in Berlin instead of Brixton that wont change for a long time if ever. As far as I am concerned on Thursday I had the chance to rectify a mistake i made forty odd years ago, if you loose a vote you suck it up and move on, welcome to democracy. Anyway the French hate us, they have never forgiven us for bashing Napoleon.  

[continuo]

I don't understand the concept of a simple majority being considered sufficient to decide on a national action of this gravity. Especially if it is barely any majority and more of a draw between the stay and leave camp. Would've expected something like a required 2/3 winning margin on this   

[G7PSK]

http://brokennews.com.au/2016/06/24/australia-leave-au-stralia/

[continuo]

I have been somewhat disappointed, with how little the EU seemed to do, to present its case to the UK public. Maybe there was some regulation(s), preventing it ?

That's a good question. Was there made any effort to win people over? If not, why not?

Because Cameron explicitly asked the EU to keep silent. There was the fear that anything from outside the UK would be considered to be foreign intrusion and counterproductive to the stay camp.

[Howardlong]

http://brokennews.com.au/2016/06/24/australia-leave-au-stralia/

Kinda apt for the BrokenNews website, I am seeing either 500 errors or Resource Limt Reached errors.

[MK14]

I don't understand the concept of a simple majority being considered sufficient to decide on a national action of this gravity. Especially if it is barely any majority and more of a draw between the stay and leave camp. Would've expected something like a required 2/3 winning margin on this   

On the other hand, you can't/shouldn't show bias like that.
E.g. You could make it 33.333% or less of the vote we remain.
> 33.333% of the vote we leave.

So >50% = Leaving, is then showing no bias.

tl;dr
If the vote needed to be >= 2/3 for a winning majority. Who gets to choose which way the options are set out.
I.e. >= 2/3 Leave
Or
>= 2/3 Remain

tl;dr (second)
You could present the question as "Do you want to Remain in the EU ?"
Or
"Do you want to Leave the EU ?"

So if it was >=2/3 of the votes, to be carried through.
Who gets to decide which way round the question is set ?

I understand your concerns. But perceive 50% as being the correct/fair threshold.

On the other hand a higher threshold, would give a degree of hysteresis and/or safety margin, stability.
Another way of looking at it, is if 65% want to LEAVE and only 35% want to remain. It seems rather UNFAIR if the threshold was 2/3, so 65% < 66.66666%, so we would have to STAY, which would upset the majority (Leave supporters).

[3db]

Please welcome us back Kiwis, Ozzies, and Hosers. Let's not forget the West Indies, Hong Kong, India, most of Africa, and all the other former colonies (USA too!). Let's get back to a commonwealth trading partnership without EU intervention. 

Don't come running back to us,bleating about "Our common British heritage"---we've moved on!
You let us know where we belonged in the pecking order back in the 1970s.

Oops !!  :

[Howardlong]

I have been somewhat disappointed, with how little the EU seemed to do, to present its case to the UK public. Maybe there was some regulation(s), preventing it ?

That's a good question. Was there made any effort to win people over? If not, why not?

Because Cameron explicitly asked the EU to keep silent. There was the fear that anything from outside the UK would be considered to be foreign intrusion and counterproductive to the stay camp.

On that, I'd strongly suggest he was right.

[MK14]

Because Cameron explicitly asked the EU to keep silent. There was the fear that anything from outside the UK would be considered to be foreign intrusion and counterproductive to the stay camp.

Assuming that is true, then that is sad/worrying.
I would much prefer the voting public to be presented with plenty of accurate/full information, to help them decide the correct course of action. Especially as 52% vs 48% is VERY close. So small details like that, could easily swing it the other way.

[doobedoobedo]

I don't understand the concept of a simple majority being considered sufficient to decide on a national action of this gravity. Especially if it is barely any majority and more of a draw between the stay and leave camp. Would've expected something like a required 2/3 winning margin on this   

You're absolutely right. It should have been set so that a 66% majority were required to stay.

I believe that's perfectly fair and democratic by your reasoning.

[3db]

Britain needs two more voting rounds:

1. Shall we have a vote for another vote in which we vote for "Remain" or "Leave".
2. Shall we "Remain" or "Leave", this time I really mean it after I Googled for "What is EU", "What it means to leave the EU" and the "£350m for the NHS" is not going to happen.

We voted.
It's DONE.

[G7PSK]

I don't understand the concept of a simple majority being considered sufficient to decide on a national action of this gravity. Especially if it is barely any majority and more of a draw between the stay and leave camp. Would've expected something like a required 2/3 winning margin on this   

You're absolutely right. It should have been set so that a 66% majority were required to stay.

I believe that's perfectly fair and democratic by your reasoning.

In some parts of the UK the vote was well over 70% in favour of leaving, if Scotland and Northern Ireland are left out the Vote is well over 66%. The answer is to leave Ireland to the Irish and start buying bricks again. (to rebuild Hadrian's wall)

[3db]

I don't understand the concept of a simple majority being considered sufficient to decide on a national action of this gravity. Especially if it is barely any majority and more of a draw between the stay and leave camp. Would've expected something like a required 2/3 winning margin on this   

IT's called Democracy !!.