UK forum members, BREXIT?

[vodka]

What do you happen if the world owner order their sheepdogs that don't borrow any pound to UK?

Print money, unlike the Greeks they own the printing press for their debts. They can inflate it away.

There are costs to doing so, but those costs can be lower than repaying it without inflation.

They will have a  billet 1 Million pounds  for buying the bread as the Republic of Weimar(German 1919-1933) or the Regim Mugabe (Zimbaue).

BRILLANT SOLUTION

[MK14]

They will have a  billet 1 Million pounds  for buying the bread as the Republic of Weimar(German 1919-1933) or the Regim Mugabe (Zimbaue).

BRILLANT SOLUTION

So are you saying that Zimbabwe going bust, would have been much better if they had used the Euros. Then as well as Zimbabwe going bust, the whole of the EU (ones that use the Euro), also go bust as well ?

At least only the single/bad country (which very badly managed the situation), goes bankrupt, NOT a huge pile of other countries and/or rich countries are forced to bail them out.

[Marco]

They will have a  billet 1 Million pounds  for buying the bread as the Republic of Weimar(German 1919-1933) or the Regim Mugabe (Zimbaue).

The Weimar republic had a persistent current account deficit in gold, you can't print to fix that. Mugabe had a massively oversized government expenditure, you can't print to fix that either.

A better recent example is Abenomics. You might have heard recently what a failure it has been because it has reduced real Japanese wages, what you won't have heard is that it brought Japan back into trade balance (the supposed failure and the latter fact are intimately connected by the way). This is how inflation can help in a properly run nation, it returns competitiveness by reducing consumption of foreign goods.

[Jeroen3]

Meanwhile in the noise of Brexit. They have come up with an structure to vaporise even more civil money!
http://ec.europa.eu/finance/pensions/iorp/index_en.htm

[Simon]

Meanwhile in the noise of Brexit. They have come up with an structure to vaporise even more civil money!
http://ec.europa.eu/finance/pensions/iorp/index_en.htm

and the page throws up an invitation to a questionare that takes you away from the page you were about to read. what a cunning plan.

[doobedoobedo]

The EU is the [...] anti-democratic organisation.

I'am alway baffled by this argument.

Every EU citizen has two ways of representation.
EU parliament (with represantatives you voted in) and council which consists of the government represantatives of each country (democratically elected according to your country's rules). Each of these two bodies can veto every decision.

So please talk to your democratically elected government or your member of eu parialament, if you feel misrepresented. It's not some anonymous eu bureaucrat making those decisions, but people you/we voted in.

How EU decisions are made.

Except arguably the most powerful part of the EU which you fail to mention is unelected, unaccountable Commission.

I'll refer your response of "they're just a civil service" to my previous comment.

Is the British civil service the only body able to propose laws? No. That is the job of our parliament.
Does the British civil service have agenda-setting powers? No. That is the job of our government.

So the European Commission, who you say are just a civil service, actually have the powers of our government and parliament. While the European parliament have rubber-stamping powers for those laws proposed by the commission. Now that's democracy!

[Fraser]

You know the more I think about it, the more I wish my Government and our Diplomats engage with our European friends to see if they can come up with a workable solution to this situation. Some may say, why bother....let the UK leave, but I hope others are more positive and can see that the UK does have a good effect on the EU project and is worth negotiating with.

Sadly I have to come back to certain high ranking persons in the EU leadership who, to be honest, do not seem to be fit for the position. Being divisive rather than a catalyst for agreements.

The daft thing is that if the UK leaves, I personally will likely be better off as my old employer will need people with my skills to support their newly invigorated Diplomatic Corps   Sad but true. At one point we questioned the need for Embassies in Europe, if we leave, they will not only be essential, but likely increased in capability.

Maybe I should contact my old boss to see if he wants my skill-set any time soon

[Marco]

Meanwhile in the noise of Brexit. They have come up with an structure to vaporise even more civil money!
http://ec.europa.eu/finance/pensions/iorp/index_en.htm

Oh joy, there go our solvency rules ... they've already been gutted as is, but the financial industry would like to see them gutted far further. Easier to make money when you can just piledrive them into bankruptcy and have government pick up the tab.

[grumpydoc]

No of course it is not acceptable to behave in that manner, don't be ridiculous.  That sort of shit is appalling.

What I meant (as I'm sure you know) is that it is also ridiculous to insinuate that 17.5M people who disagree with you are all nasty bigots based on 100 cases of "racism" (as a pedant I hate the conflation of xenophobia and racism) reported on social media.

No I did not wish to imply that all 17.5M Leave voters are racist.

And I accept your point that Twitter is not exactly a reliable source, nonetheless I am not comfortable with the reports.

I do, however, take some exception to being called out of touch and an apologist for the political elite.

It seems to me to be more out of touch to think that we can, or should, aim to keep Britain "racially pure" and close our borders, and the most likely candidate for PM at present - Boris Johnson - being a product of Eaton and Cambridge is not exactly breaking the mould politically.

I also wonder exactly how many of the leave voters actually did so because they genuinely felt that the EU is run by a liberal elite which is out of touch and how many did so because they swallowed the Leave campaign rhetoric on immigration and the  NHS - rhetoric which they now seem to be trying to distance themselves from.

Had I voted leave I would have done so because I think that the inherent tensions in the EU will eventually blow it apart - monetary union amongst a set of economies as disparate as those of Europe without fiscal union is doomed. A common fiscal policy without centralised government policy is also doomed to fail. But common government is a step to far at the moment even for the core nations of the EU and I think it will remain so.

I was sympathetic to the argument that it is better for the UK to pull out now and suffer a short term downside so as to be in a stronger position - and more isolated from the fall out - should the Euro project fail.

However there existed the catch-22 that the Euro project might be more likely to fail in the short term, before we had recovered from pulling out, if we did pull out. Europe imploding while we are trying to sort out the impact on our own economy from pulling out might be fatal. So I concluded tat the risk in the short and medium term (say the next 25-30 years, probably my lifetime) was too great. I also concluded that the Leave campaign were a bunch of lying *******s.

Long term I do not know, but I'm not sure it is worth trying to figure out is best on a 30 year time-scale when politicians have such short attention spans.

The trouble with the EU is that it has consisted of a series of small steps in favour of increasing the openness of the "common market" which make sense in isolation but not when you examine them overall.

The question now is what we do and how we form our on-going relationship with the EU. Membership of the EEA would be the least upheaval but is not really compatible with the stated aims of the Leave campaign. We almost certainly won't be able to follow the Swiss model (as noted previously the EU would prefer that the Swiss stop following the Swiss model). It remains to be seen whether the EU feel that our trade is sufficiently valuable to allow us tariff free access to the EEA without also having to accept free movement of labour, we will need good negotiators.

It also saddens me that we have saddled ourselves with the Herculean effort of sorting all this out when there are so many other problems that need urgent work - (the NHS, housing, schools, rebuilding manufacturing, re-structuring education etc). Why could we not have addressed ourselves to those issues rather than blaming them all on membership of the EU.

[Fraser]

On the topic of the EU structure, the BBC aired a superb program hosted Jeremy Paxman. It showed the various buildings and the roles they played in the EU decision making and operational processes.

From that program I took away the fact that our elected MEP's debate proposed new EU rules and regulations BUT only if the EU Commissioners decide to send such down to the MEP's for debate !

From what I saw, the EU Commissioners comprise representatives of each member country. One for each. These individuals are selected by the each countries Government. What gets scary is that major decisions are made by the Commissioners without the presence of the countries PM or MEP's. Effectively a chamber of few individuals making massive decisions that effect 28 countries. That really does not seem like a great decision making structure to me !

Fraser

[Marco]

They don't even have a formal right of amendment.

[grumpydoc]

From what I saw, the EU Commissioners comprise representatives of each member country. One for each. These individuals are selected by the each countries Government. What gets scary is that major decisions are made by the Commissioners without the presence of the countries PM or MEP's. Effectively a chamber of few individuals making massive decisions that effect 28 countries. That really does not seem like a great decision making structure to me !

Not that I necessarily approve but it sounds like an excellent decision making structure.

As in a structure that can actually make decisions. Otherwise getting 28 countries to agree anything must be like herding cats.

[MT]

Herding cats is easier!

[KJDS]

From what I saw, the EU Commissioners comprise representatives of each member country. One for each. These individuals are selected by the each countries Government. What gets scary is that major decisions are made by the Commissioners without the presence of the countries PM or MEP's. Effectively a chamber of few individuals making massive decisions that effect 28 countries. That really does not seem like a great decision making structure to me !

Not that I necessarily approve but it sounds like an excellent decision making structure.

As in a structure that can actually make decisions. Otherwise getting 28 countries to agree anything must be like herding cats.

The best form of government is a benign dictatorship by someone sufficiently wise.

The real problem with that is that dictators are rarely benign and tend to have a very idealized view of their own talent to ego ratio.

[Nauris]

The fact is if people got off their asses they could do all of those low skilled jobs that immigrants do but no one in their right mind would employ a british worker over say a polish person. The only good and conciencus assembler we have on the shop floor at work is polish and he is more qualified in poland than anyone else.

Well, if all polish were send home then the employer wouldn't have the choice but employ british.

Thinking about it,
if immigrant is less skillfull than you are then he is usefull or at most an annoyance.
In contrast, if he is more skilled than you are then he is threat.

To me limiting immigration looks like result of quite rational thinking.

[nctnico]

From what I saw, the EU Commissioners comprise representatives of each member country. One for each. These individuals are selected by the each countries Government. What gets scary is that major decisions are made by the Commissioners without the presence of the countries PM or MEP's. Effectively a chamber of few individuals making massive decisions that effect 28 countries. That really does not seem like a great decision making structure to me !

So the European parliament should debate about how many farts the pigs from farmer John may produce each day? At some point you need a sifting process to determine what is important and less important. The purpose of the commission is to consult national governments and interested parties to see where laws and regulations need additions and fixing. Who gets a chair in the commission is ofcourse influenced by who you vote for but as a country you can't have some half assed dimwit with little or no political experience in such an important position.

Better get information from the source than a mockumentary:
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/2014-2019_en

[Marco]

What always ends up happening in contentious issues is the commission putting their proposal on the table and going, well this is going to be it ... vote it in or we will just have no homogenized legislation on it for four more years, take it or leave it.

The right of amendment creates a balance of power, it can be abused ... but then obviously so can the absence of that balance.

[doobedoobedo]

Well, if all polish were send home ....

Please quote a credible source for any threat of law abiding people who arrived in the UK legally being deported.

This will not happen.

[MT]

RT is indeed a Putin machine.
But the Putin propaganda apparatus is mainly for internal use to keep the people in order, most outside Russia just chuckles when they try to export it.

Thanks for the clarification.
Sometimes (but very rarely), people have linked to it (or similar), because they (the Russians), have invented some super-duper mega new weapon. With phenomenal destructive powers, and they are boasting about it on one of these sources.
Then technical people, tear it to pieces and say it is complete nonsense, and couldn't work like that in a million years.
These days, North Korea sometimes takes the biscuit/lead, in such claims.

The sad thing is that Putin could have been one of the greatest reformators, not only for Russians, but of all time, but he blow'ed it as the KGB formed thug he is. Putin is not worried by external forces, he has way bigger problems internally, Caucasus extremists, and his own many security apparatus within the government battling for his personal attention. Even good ol' Gorbatjoff is complaining Putin surrounds him self with mates from childhood! Putin is way way politically sharper then the Duck and will use him as a pillow!

WARNING! FOLLOWING PICTURE MIGHT CONTAIN POOR TASTE AND MAKE YOU FEEL OFFENDED AND MIND BENDED
ACCORDING TO EEVBLOG USERS BUD AND FRASER! IF SO COMPLAINTS BE FILED TO THE EU COMMISSIONAIRE OF PUBLIC OFFENCES!

[nctnico]

The fact is if people got off their asses they could do all of those low skilled jobs that immigrants do but no one in their right mind would employ a british worker over say a polish person. The only good and conciencus assembler we have on the shop floor at work is polish and he is more qualified in poland than anyone else.

Well, if all polish were send home then the employer wouldn't have the choice but employ british.

In that case the employer is likely to move to Poland because they can't find the necessary skilled and motivated employees. The problem is not the amount of people but the level of education and or motivation.

[MK14]

The sad thing is that Putin could have been one of the greatest reformators, not only for Russians, but of all time, but he blow'ed it as the KGB formed thug he is. Putin is not worried by external forces, he has way bigger problems internally, Caucasus extremists, and his own many security apparatus within the government battling for his personal attention. Even good ol' Gorbatjoff is complaining Putin surrounds him self with mates from childhood! Putin is way way politically sharper then the Duck and will use him as a pillow!

One of my worries about the brexit, is that we are in partly-unsettled times, and it is NOT totally unthinkable that war(s) could break out. I thought that Putin was EXTREMELY reckless with Ukraine and taking Crimea.
If significant war(s) do break out, I felt that the situation would be better and more stable if the UK was still part of the EU.

E.g. when Turkey somewhat recently shot down Russian war plane(s), allegedly "just within" their borders.

So from purely a peace and security point of view, remain was probably (but not NECESSARILY) the safest option, in my opinion.

On the other hand, remaining might have caused bad tensions, later on, which could have also led to instability. So maybe leave was best.

I don't know. Maybe now is NOT the safest of times, to be exiting the EU, if Syria and/or North Korea and/or Russia etc starts messing around too much.

[nctnico]

I don't know. Maybe now is NOT the safest of times, to be exiting the EU, if Syria and/or North Korea and/or Russia etc starts messing around too much.

As others wrote: the UK didn't leave Nato which is a far bigger millitary pact.

[MK14]

I don't know. Maybe now is NOT the safest of times, to be exiting the EU, if Syria and/or North Korea and/or Russia etc starts messing around too much.

As others wrote: the UK didn't leave Nato which is a far bigger millitary pact.

Yes, it is good that we still have NATO.

But it would be better still (if we end up in a near or actual war situation), if we got on as well, as we have during the "golden" EU era, which seems to be gradually ending, now.
E.g. Powerful Sanctions are via the EU/US/Etc, rather than NATO.

[Simon]

The fact is if people got off their asses they could do all of those low skilled jobs that immigrants do but no one in their right mind would employ a british worker over say a polish person. The only good and conciencus assembler we have on the shop floor at work is polish and he is more qualified in poland than anyone else.

Well, if all polish were send home then the employer wouldn't have the choice but employ british.

Thinking about it,
if immigrant is less skillfull than you are then he is usefull or at most an annoyance.
In contrast, if he is more skilled than you are then he is threat.

To me limiting immigration looks like result of quite rational thinking.

We do need to limit immigration. but equally we need to train our own workforce and expect people to work. where I work it seems that the less you do the better you get on, so i decided to start taking it easy. As soon as i sarted taking it easy instead of rushing around in circles I started getting asked "if I had time to do that", "when would i get timeto to that" and "thank you for doing that". On the other hand without foreign nurses we are scrwwed while the government continue to cut funding to trainng. Everything here is made to be tick box so that unskilled people can do stuff.

[Simon]

The fact is if people got off their asses they could do all of those low skilled jobs that immigrants do but no one in their right mind would employ a british worker over say a polish person. The only good and conciencus assembler we have on the shop floor at work is polish and he is more qualified in poland than anyone else.

Well, if all polish were send home then the employer wouldn't have the choice but employ british.

In that case the employer is likely to move to Poland because they can't find the necessary skilled and motivated employees. The problem is not the amount of people but the level of education and or motivation.

Correct, As I have said before many times. As someone with no qualifications i have often had to put right problems made by people more qualified than me or come up with solutions for them. The problem with this country is that we have stopped doing qualifications and instead have attendance certificates.....