UK abolishes <£15 VAT free imports. EU to follow.

[sleemanj]

I was going to say "I'm sure they won't care and it will go through as if the seller was under VAT threshold anyway", but then I read this...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/changes-to-vat-treatment-of-overseas-goods-sold-to-customers-from-1-january-2021/changes-to-vat-treatment-of-overseas-goods-sold-to-customers-from-1-january-2021

Especially...

There is no VAT registration threshold for businesses established outside the UK so you will be required to register for VAT on any value of sales where you become liable for VAT under these new measures.

That's nuts.  So me, a tiny one man band who has on very very rare occasion sold something low value to a UK customer, is required to register for VAT.  Yeah, sod that.  UK is off my xmas card list, and onto my shipping restrictions list.

[magic]

It's not about you, you are just collateral. It's about the fact that everything has been outsourced to China so the manufacturers cannot be taxed anymore. As long as it was being imported to Europe by "European" companies slapping their badge on it, the governments could at least tax the importers, but now that anyone can order direct, they are basically going to reach asymptotically zero income unless they intervene somehow. And all of that while the amount of free shit that sheeple want form the government keeps growing with no limit in sight.

That's what the blind worship of capitalism, globalism and socialism gets you.

Fun times

[bingo600]

As i see it from a hobby perspective , and low price orders:

I have no problems paying 25% VAT on my 16$ PCB's , but the $23 fee that DK-Mail wants for collecting $4 in VAT.
That is prohibiting me to do continue.

The JLPCB wants to keep the "hobby orders" , they need to figure out a way for me to avoid the $23 fee.

The DK web shops are complaining about unfair competition , as low price china packets are not eglible for VAT (€10.5 limit here).
But i pay $2 for an USB cable in china , and $14 in a DK webshop ... Thats a lot more than 25% - They're too greedy.

They think they can begin to charge $14 for a cable again , but all that is going to happen is that Amazon will get "richer" , as i can get the same cable at amazon.de for 5..7$.

Edit:
The "Free postage from China" is almost gone here in DK , and i think the "china mail rebate" is fully gone within 1..2 years (fair enough)
I usually select Aliexpress shipping anyways , as the stuff arrives within 2..3 weeks , instead of 5..8 weeks.

/Bingo

[tom66]

The regulations state that gifts up to £39 are exempt so instead I expect sellers to just illegally mark these as gifts of low value, which rarely get checked.

[bingo600]

The regulations state that gifts up to £39 are exempt so instead I expect sellers to just illegally mark these as gifts of low value, which rarely get checked.

In EU ALL imports are VAT eglible after 01-Jun-2021

Btw:
The DK customs have done several checks of VAT fraud w. china packets marked under the DK limit.
They found that more that 97% was below the limit , and legal.
So the fraud isn't something they were concerned aboud.

[all_repair]

Enjoy while the good time last.  If there is any subsidy for no Vat, is always on me, not on the overseas sellers at all.  Cheap cost also mean I can take more risk, and iterations can be faster.  Politicians or media like to distort the logic, and people do fall for it.  Unless there is local manufacturers, buying from the local, just feed another layer of friction that perform no useful function.  Many local sellers here, end up would not be able to survive unless they can value-add which many cannot, and do not bother to as well.  But local landlords are especially happy if there are more friction add to any overseas trade.  And landlords are the last people I would want to support.  I know of many (almost all) don't reinvest on the rental income to other productive area, but always on overseas holiday before covid19.

[Microdoser]

> Shame I will now have to pay tax on every crappy little item from JLCPCB or AliExpress but hey, prices are so low that 20% won't break the bank.

Yeah, I don't have a problem paying the VAT, but my current issue is that JLCPCB have no intention of registering with HMRC (I mailed their support), and I don't blame them. The cost and hassle for the ability to deal with small-order UK personal stuff is not the most persuasive argument I've heard

Personally, I will either see the results of someone else ordering from them or make a small non-vital order and see what happens myself.

If it is the responsibility of the sender to pay VAT then I will not get a charge, either it gets delivered or it does not.

If I find that the item still gets delivered anyway then I will carry on as normal. If the item is returned to sender then I will adjust my purchasing habits accordingly, either by making larger orders from JLCPCB or getting the item from an Ebay reseller in the UK.

[Bicurico]

In my opinion, the problem is not paying VAT, but rather the cost, delay and bureaucracy that will be involved in actually charging it.

The reason that the EU post-poned this new rule to July was exactly because there was no way of actually handling it, especially with the increased purchases due to COVID.

On the other hand, I am not that worried. Gearbest, Banggood and similar already offer purchases from their "EU stores", which are really just an intermediate at tax havens like Netherlands. They receive the package, put it in a new envelope and ship tax-free to the customer (EU to EU). Also, 23% VAT (in case of Portugal) on a 20 Euro purchase is irrelevant, if there are no further costs involved, which I do fear (handling, invoicing, VAT application fee, etc.).

What really annoys me is how goverments in democratic countries (EU, US, etc.) are giving increasingly no shit about what the people who elected them actually want. And then they get surprised with a sudden raise of right-wing extremist parties.

So we are living in a global economy.
Big companies shift their production to Asia and their headquarters to Ireland (tax haven within the EU).
They don't pay any tax, destroy local/regional labour.

But it is the common citizen who buys a stupid Chinese gadget for less than 20 Euro, that needs to be taxed?

 

Why not implement a global abolition on customs?
Why not abolish VAT, one of the most injust taxes there is? Remember that poor people pay as much VAT as rich people!
There should only be one single tax: a fixed percentage on the income. Period. If you make 100 Euro/month, you pay x%. If you make 10.000 Euro/month, you pay the same x%. Eliminate all the remaining tax laws and save on the whole finance ministry, which becomes obsolete. Every citizen needs to contribute with SOMETHING. Even those that are poor. And a fixed percentage already makes the richer pay more than the poor.

So, in my opinion: screw customs, VAT and present goverements!

Sorry for the rage.

Vitor

[madires]

The problem is that the Chinese sellers note a value of US$ 1 on the customs declaration form to avoid VAT, despite the real value often exceeds the limit for VAT free imports. It's tax fraud, but a win-win situation for seller and buyer.

[Bicurico]

I have had my share of experience with Portuguese customs and I can tell you they are everything BUT stupid. They know exactly what these Chinese products are worth, they don't care for the sellers note of value and the standard practice is that the buyer needs to send proof of payment to customs, with a signed statement that all declarations are correct.

The problem is that once your package is flagged for check, you can easily add another 4 weeks minimum until you can lay your hands on it.

[DC1MC]

I have had my share of experience with Portuguese customs and I can tell you they are everything BUT stupid. They know exactly what these Chinese products are worth, they don't care for the sellers note of value and the standard practice is that the buyer needs to send proof of payment to customs, with a signed statement that all declarations are correct.

The problem is that once your package is flagged for check, you can easily add another 4 weeks minimum until you can lay your hands on it.

The same situation with the German customs, their eagle eye (pun indented) will not release anything that doesn't fit in a small envelope without personally coming to their offices with solid proof of payment. Also they are checking for "fake and counterfeit and non-CE approved products" and confiscate them on the spot, I've seen an Asian person in front of me leaving empty handed without his large bag of phones and toys, the poor guy was almost crying. The customs waiting hall in my town has even a display in the waiting area proudly showing their captures  .
Of course, one either have to go there and wait in queue, or, with Covid rules and public access mostly forbidden, pay the "moderate" 25-50 EUR service fee that carriers ask for doing the customs declaration for you to pay the 4EUR VAT  .

 DC1MC

[madires]

It should be EUR 5 at least since there's an internal directive to ignore low value goods generating a VAT less than EUR 5 because the work involved is much more expensive. That directive increases the official EUR 22 limit to about 26.

[petematthews]

So, thinking it through since last night, could you (non-fraudulently) do this with 2 eBay accounts...

Prep your order at jlcpcb, get goods total
Acct1 creates a buy it now listing for the amount, declaring that it ships from outside the UK
Acct2 buys it, pays, etc. This should include the vat thanks to eBay.
Acct1 gets the relevant vat details for the packaging from eBay
Place order at jlcpcb, including the vat stuff as part of the address
You now have a vat receipt from acct2 in case you need it as proof on delivery, collection, etc.

Yes, you'll wind up paying eBay listing and PayPal fees, but that's probably less than the old royal mail £8 surcharge anyway... All in all, I'd be comfortable doing this from a legal and "I'm doing the right thing" angle.

Only possible problem is eBay flagging stuff as potentially fraudulent. Might be worth finding other people willing to help you out - if anyone wants to trial this, I'm game.

[madires]

I've checked the new VAT rules for buyers in EU countries buying from no-EU sellers (starting July 1st.). There are two processes available for goods with a value less than EUR 150 (for > EUR 150 the standard customs process applies, as before).

process #1:
- seller not registered at a EU tax office
- seller doesn't bill VAT
- seller must perform a simplified customs declaration electronically
- mail service delivers the goods and charges VAT plus handling fee

process #2:
- seller is registered at a EU tax office
- seller bills VAT
- seller must perform a simplified customs declaration electronically stating his tax number
- mail service delivers the goods

[petematthews]

So, thinking it through since last night, could you (non-fraudulently) do this with 2 eBay accounts...

Prep your order at jlcpcb, get goods total
Acct1 creates a buy it now listing for the amount, declaring that it ships from outside the UK
Acct2 buys it, pays, etc. This should include the vat thanks to eBay.
Acct1 gets the relevant vat details for the packaging from eBay
Place order at jlcpcb, including the vat stuff as part of the address
You now have a vat receipt from acct2 in case you need it as proof on delivery, collection, etc.

Yes, you'll wind up paying eBay listing and PayPal fees, but that's probably less than the old royal mail £8 surcharge anyway... All in all, I'd be comfortable doing this from a legal and "I'm doing the right thing" angle.

Only possible problem is eBay flagging stuff as potentially fraudulent. Might be worth finding other people willing to help you out - if anyone wants to trial this, I'm game.

Actually, don't do this. While I stand by it as a creative problem-solving solution, it's apparently wildly contrary to eBay's T's&C's - They are watching, the will hunt you down and ban you. Hard. And your paypal account. And any other paypal accounts at your address, etc. Apparently it used to be used by unscrupulous characters to boost feedback scores. Which is annoying.

Not sure if there are other marketplaces you could run a similar plan though. AliExpress seems to require you to be a registered company to be a seller. 

[sleemanj]

Not sure if there are other marketplaces you could run a similar plan though. AliExpress seems to require you to be a registered company to be a seller.

You could do it as not-a-scam by using a reshipper in China, get your PCbs shipped to the reshipper, reshipper ships to you (and charges you international shipping and the VAT and their service charge).

Superbuy has made this post which seems to indicate that "if they are required to" then they will do VAT, but that they are not doing it unless they have to... http://bbs.superbuy.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=470199&fid=50&extra=page%3D1  (Superbuy is both an agent who can buy from taobao, 1688 etc, and also you can ship stuff bought elsewhere, like a pcb fab, to their warehouse to be reshipped to you).

[Fraser]

I just received my first parcel from the EU since the changes. The parcel came from Germany and had the “VAT Paid” code as part of the second line of the address. It stated....

 “GB 365 6085 76 Code:Paid”

A standard CN22 value declaration was attached to the parcel but I understand there will be a new declaration label issued, in the UK at least, to cover shipments to the EU.

The purchase was via eBay and it appears that VAT was automatically included.
I made an offer of £30 on an item that was being offered with free postage. The eBay transaction shows a cost of £25.86 plus £4.14 VAT so I did not pay additional VAT on my offer, it was considered part of the offer price

In case anyone is curious about what I bought.... it was an order for two LAPC116A logic probe pods made for a Hantek/Voltcraft MSO, so £30 for two delivered to the UK was great value 

No additional VAT was requested upon delivery by Royal Mail.

Fraser

[Fraser]

The plot thickens........

I just made an exact same offer to the same seller fir two more of the logic analyzer cables and the eBay offer entry page clearly states that the offer amount does NOT include VAT or shipping. I may be wrong, but that appears to have been added since My last offer to the seller. I wonder whether sellers now have ‘include’ or ‘exclude’ VAT and shipping for offers option in their profile or maybe eBay now exclude these as a matter of course? When I entered my £15 each offer for 2 cables, eBay added VAT to the total that I would pay.

It looks like I got lucky with my first purchase wher VAT was considered a part of the offer.

Fraser

[Fraser]

Yep, confirmed..... my offer of £15 per logic cable, Qty 2, was just accepted. The total I paid was £36 as 20% VAT was added by eBay. Still a good price and sadly it appears the seller took the hit for VAT in the first transaction. Either that or it was an eBay error and they gave the seller the full £30 that I offered.

Fraser

[Monkeh]

It's all well and good if you're buying from eBay or Amazon. Shame about all the other businesses we're now not easily able to trade with and are losing out to the big players.

What, for example, do I do if I want to buy something from Welectron? Pay them their 19% VAT, somehow claim it back, pay another 20% VAT and a processing fee when it arrives here? Yeah, that sounds stupid - hence why I can no longer do small business with them. Them and thousands of other businesses we're now either locked out of or being penalised for using.

[petematthews]

Hold the phone - it's just one of the companies you may wish to deal with, but JLCPCBs site (my main concern, tbh) now has the following:

United Kingdom                           0~135GBP (VAT collected by JLCPCB)
                                                      >135GBP (VAT collected by local custom)

From https://support.jlcpcb.com/article/89-customs-duties-and-taxes

Seems to imply they will be handling it. Might email their support folks again and see if I can get hold of someone who knows what's up.

[madires]

Interesting, 135 GBP = 150 EUR, i.e. the EU limit for simplified imports (just VAT).

[Monkeh]

Interesting, 135 GBP = 150 EUR, i.e. the EU limit for simplified imports (just VAT).

It is, after all, merely an implementation of EU law.

[tszaboo]

So I ordered a few PCbs for a side project from China.
The PCBs were 28 EUR, DHL was 33.
Then just now, DHL charged 17 EUR for "Advance payment fee" and 11 EUR as import duty.

I guess we can kiss goodbye to cheap PCBs.

[artag]

Why couldn't the payment processor (paypal, or a credit card company) handle the VAT ?
They could charge a fee that's lower than the post office - after all, the paperwork is going through them already.
It makes more sense than the carrier paying it, when it's related to the payment cost rather than the transport cost