UK abolishes <£15 VAT free imports. EU to follow.

[Fraser]

CJay,

It may be “simple” but is it currently fair to domestic sellers ?

The Chinese shipping is subsidised so we do not have a level playing field......

https://www.ft.com/content/3af8bfb8-ad3a-11e8-94bd-cba20d67390c

[Microdoser]

Good. I resent having to pay a third party so they can pay my tax for me with the only other option being the most expensive delivery method.

Now I can choose slow 'n' cheap delivery for items that are not needed quickly without having to worry about extra mandatory charges being added and my item being held ransom until I pay (looking at you Royal Mail).

These days I tend to choose DDP delivery anyway for that exact reason.

Shame I will now have to pay tax on every crappy little item from JLCPCB or AliExpress but hey, prices are so low that 20% won't break the bank.

[CJay]

CJay,

It may be “simple” but is it currently fair to domestic sellers ?

The Chinese shipping is subsidised so we do not have a level playing field......

https://www.ft.com/content/3af8bfb8-ad3a-11e8-94bd-cba20d67390c

Ah good old British fair play.

How many of those 'domestic sellers' are selling the same goods at a markup?

How did they get them?

[Microdoser]

CJay,

It may be “simple” but is it currently fair to domestic sellers ?

The Chinese shipping is subsidised so we do not have a level playing field......

https://www.ft.com/content/3af8bfb8-ad3a-11e8-94bd-cba20d67390c

Ah good old British fair play.

How many of those 'domestic sellers' are selling the same goods at a markup?

How did they get them?

I've lost count of the times I have found a product on AliExpress which is also being sold on Ebay, with a decent markup of course.

Often, just to get it quicker, I have paid the premium and bought on Ebay. I don't mind though, there are costs and risk involved in getting a product to the UK and storing it until it is bought, then posting it.

But yeah, they are the exact same products quite often.

[CJay]

I've lost count of the times I have found a product on AliExpress which is also being sold on Ebay, with a decent markup of course.

Often, just to get it quicker, I have paid the premium and bought on Ebay. I don't mind though, there are costs and risk involved in getting a product to the UK and storing it until it is bought, then posting it.

But yeah, they are the exact same products quite often.

It's not the markup I object to, fair play to them if they can make a few quid doing it.

The price difference between goods supplied by a UK seller and a Chinese seller dropshipping Alibaba stuff is going to remain pretty much the same percentage but the consumers of those goods will now be paying more for them, there'll be no more profit for the bloke who's running an eBay 'store' selling cheap Chinese stuff, all that extra money will go to HMRC, he might even have to put his prices up to deal with the extra admin required.

[HwAoRrDk]

I noticed eBay had implemented changes for this when I ordered something from HK yesterday. Saw there was a "UK VAT has been added" (or words to that effect) statement on the checkout page.

But either I'm going mad, or they screwed up...

The item was listed for £5.63. But the checkout page indicated I was going to be charged £4.69, which is the amount that was indeed charged via PP.

So... they list items inc. VAT, but show the exc. VAT price at checkout, where they specifically tell you VAT has been added, but then don't actually charge it.

[ozcar]

Reading what some manufacturers and suppliers in the UK have said about this change, it appears to be very popular ...

In Australia, the similar move was dubbed the "Gerry Harvey Tax" (Harvey was a prominent but certainly not the only businessman calling for such a move).

And yes, it only catches the big fish. It also appears to give sellers yet another reason to misrepresent the location of goods.

[S. Petrukhin]

In Russia (and the countries of the Customs Union), imports of less than 200 Euros are not taxed and are not declared.
Guys in England, ask your politicians to join the Customs Union. 

[Canis Dirus Leidy]

In Russia (and the countries of the Customs Union), imports of less than 200 Euros are not taxed and are not declared.

Basically, this is because of the COVID and quarantine outbreak. Normally, AFAIK, the duty-free limit this year should have been reduced to an EU-like 20 euros (and the infamous AKIT demanded that any purchase in a foreign store requires a license for foreign economic activity). Plus, many goods are considered "not intended for personal use", so you can buy a multimeter on Aliexpress or order a PCB from JLCPCB only because customs officers  are not eager to comply with the law and carefully check every small parcel (unless blatant cases like old analogue oscilloscope with CRT).

[Fraser]

HwAoRrDk,

Interesting comment. I bought some new headphone ear pads and had exactly the same experience. They were charged at a lower amount than shown so I looked for a sellers discount offer on the auction but found none. Not sure what eBay were doing. Maybe the item I bought came from a UK drop warehouse and VAT was pre paid so eBay zeroed the VAT they had automatically added ?

Update. I checked the auction and sure enough it says London as the location but likely a UK fulfilment warehouse for a China based seller.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2pcs-Replacement-70mm-Earpad-Cushion-for-Sony-MDR-V150-V250-V300-Headphone-DC/293777079845?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Fraser

[Monkeh]

HwAoRrDk,

Interesting comment. I bought some new headphone ear pads and had exactly the same experience. They were charged at a lower amount than shown so I looked for a sellers discount offer on the auction but found none. Not sure what eBay were doing. Maybe the item I bought came from a UK drop warehouse and VAT was pre paid so eBay zeroed the VAT they had automatically added ?

Update. I checked the auction and sure enough it says London as the location but likely a UK fulfilment warehouse for a China based seller.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2pcs-Replacement-70mm-Earpad-Cushion-for-Sony-MDR-V150-V250-V300-Headphone-DC/293777079845?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Fraser

Delivery:
Estimated on or before Fri. 15 Jan

That's not even in the UK.

[rcbuck]

We don't have VAT here. Each State, City, and County set their own tax rates. Some products such as food in some cities or states is not charged. Federal tax is added to some things such as gasoline and alcohol (drinking) products. And of course we have State and Federal income tax on our earnings.

Sometime last year Ebay started charging State tax on every purchase regardless of where seller is located. This was because of a Supreme Court decision on a lawsuit brought by several States. So I pay Arizona State (but not City or County) tax on every Ebay purchase. I don't think Aliexpress charges tax but I haven't bought anything from there in over a year.

As someone said, per International agreement China gets cheap (free) shipping to the U.S. because they are a "developing" country.

[Fraser]

Monkeh,

What makes you think my headphone ear pads were not dispatched from within the UK ?

The headphone ear pads came from a warehouse in Hayes and were delivered to me by Yodel.
The seller states "5 Days" shipping time with courier.

Order placed: 02 January 2021
Dispatched from Hayes (UK) warehouse: 03 January 2021
Delivered to me by Yodel: 07 January 2021

I attach a section of the tracking history. I have little doubt that the seller is in China but, as you may know, Chinese sellers use UK Warehouses to sell goods with faster delivery times. Whether the Warehouse stock has had UK VAT pre-paid, or how these Warehouses operate is not known to me.

I might add that the replacement headphone ear pads for my Sony MDR-V150 headphones are excellent quality and fit perfectly. They are actually much better than the original Sony fitment 

Fraser

[Monkeh]

Monkeh,

What makes you think my headphone ear pads were not dispatched from within the UK ?

The headphone ear pads came from a warehouse in Hayes and were delivered to me by Yodel.
The seller states "5 Days" shipping time with courier.

Order placed: 02 January 2021
Dispatched from Hayes (UK) warehouse: 03 January 2021
Delivered to me by Yodel: 07 January 2021

I attach a section of the tracking history. I have little doubt that the seller is in China but, as you may know, Chinese sellers use UK Warehouses to sell goods with faster delivery times. Whether the Warehouse stock has had UK VAT pre-paid, or how these Warehouses operate is not known to me.

Fraser

Even with the likes of Yodel, advertising a full week to get across the UK is just plain odd. I've bought various such items and every one of them has clearly been shipped out of China on demand and reshipped once here a few days later. A package that size can be with you in two days flat with the Royal Mail, and they're not the most competent bunch.

Hayes, and Hatfield, are conveniently close to major airports (.. Heathrow, for example), and inconveniently expensive to have a warehouse in. How does it take three days to go from Hayes to Hatfield, exactly? Answer: It doesn't, it takes two or three days to get to Heathrow, and makes it up to Hatfield on the day of landing.

[Fraser]

Monkeh,

I do not disagree with you on the 5 days transit. I noted that the item was promptly dispatched with Yodel but they seemed to hold onto it for a few days before delivering it to me. It is almost as though it is a super economy service  The other possibility is that the dispatch tracking is misleading and Yodel were advised of the pickup but did not act on it immediately.

Fraser

[ozcar]

I bought some new headphone ear pads and had exactly the same experience. They were charged at a lower amount than shown so I looked for a sellers discount offer on the auction but found none. Not sure what eBay were doing. Maybe the item I bought came from a UK drop warehouse and VAT was pre paid so eBay zeroed the VAT they had automatically added ?

Update. I checked the auction and sure enough it says London as the location but likely a UK fulfilment warehouse for a China based seller.

I don't buy much on Ebay, but my experience is that for Australia, they add GST (VAT equivalent)  when the item location is anywhere other than Australia. If the item location is given as Australia, even if the seller is based elsewhere, no GST is collected (with no sign of being added and then removed).

Even before our "Gerry Harvey Tax" was introduced, sellers often falsely claimed that items were located in Australia, probably to give the idea that shipping would be quick. Now, lying like that also means Ebay don't add the GST. Ebay don't seem to care about this, nor does it appear to be on the government radar.

[themadhippy]

delivery time means nothing, i recently  bought a new cooker,i could either   collect it an hour after buying it on line,pay another £20 for next day delivery or wait 2 weeks and get it delivered free.

[Monkeh]

delivery time means nothing, i recently  bought a new cooker,i could either   collect it an hour after buying it on line,pay another £20 for next day delivery or wait 2 weeks and get it delivered free.

Because that's equivalent to a small packet.

[HwAoRrDk]

Maybe the item I bought came from a UK drop warehouse and VAT was pre paid so eBay zeroed the VAT they had automatically added ?

Update. I checked the auction and sure enough it says London as the location but likely a UK fulfilment warehouse for a China based seller.

The item was (and is) listed as being located in Hong Kong, so I don't think that's the case with mine. Delivery estimate is 16th February (although I suspect it won't be that long - a couple of weeks probably).

I don't know what's going on.

[magic]

I am wondering what US will do or are they already doing it?

Actually, I have heard that Aliexpress charges Commiefornian sales tax on orders delivered to that state. So, apparently, they can be coerced into such things.

I have been saying from day one that VAT is the real goal of all that crying about exploitation of the postal system by Chinese sellers, at least in Europe. Guess what, they will keep sending things by economic mail and your domestic mail will keep subsidizing deliveries of Chinese wares in your country, but the government will collect its due and all will be fine and dandy.

[nctnico]

Articles on the changes....

https://tamebay.com/2021/01/have-vat-changes-for-online-marketplaces-levelled-the-playing-field.html

https://www.avalara.com/vatlive/en/vat-news/eu-2021-ending--22-import-exemption--import-oss-returns.html

The EU is going to follow this same strategy in mid 2021

If I read this correctly it means VAT needs to be paid on all packets no matter the value.

[Oldtestgear]

Many Chinese sellers on eBay have already registered with HMRC for VAT. They must feel that the extra effort is worthwhile. Also, if I plan to buy anything over the £15 limit from China it is only sensible to confirm their VAT status & NOT be hit with a hefty tax bill on import.

 Also if buying from Switzerland it is wise to ensure that the seller is registered for VAT. Often the difference in price between a  Swiss seller & one in Chine is less than the import VAT & charges.  There are a few sellers on ebay that ship from Switzerland rather than from the UK or EU.  Now we are out of the EU  it seems only right that any VAT we have to pay will go to the UK government. They are going to have to finance the massive public debt somehow.


FWIW

Phil

[bingo600]

Articles on the changes....

https://tamebay.com/2021/01/have-vat-changes-for-online-marketplaces-levelled-the-playing-field.html

https://www.avalara.com/vatlive/en/vat-news/eu-2021-ending--22-import-exemption--import-oss-returns.html

The EU is going to follow this same strategy in mid 2021

If I read this correctly it means VAT needs to be paid on all packets no matter the value.

That's what i read too.
EU regulation to remove the VAT excemption for all packages, was supposed to start Jan-01-2021.
But was delayed 6 month due to COVID-19, delaying the implementation in several member countries.

So now is the time to stock up on "small thingies"

/Bingo

[BravoV]

I guess its just matter of time, that implosion is going to happen caused by self over taxing the people for almost everything imported until it reached breaking point ? While the country's real and tangible productivity and self-reliance at fundamental sectors were and are fading for decades and no sign of recovery, cmiiw. 

[petematthews]

> Shame I will now have to pay tax on every crappy little item from JLCPCB or AliExpress but hey, prices are so low that 20% won't break the bank.

Yeah, I don't have a problem paying the VAT, but my current issue is that JLCPCB have no intention of registering with HMRC (I mailed their support), and I don't blame them. The cost and hassle for the ability to deal with small-order UK personal stuff is not the most persuasive argument I've heard I've had the beginnings of a £38 order planned, but now it seems my options are:

1 - Pay the RM delivery (~£3.90). This was my usual plan - I'm cheap and it's hobby, so I don't really care too much about timescales However, I've been unable to find out what happens to sub-£135 packages that show up at ports/airports with no VAT paid. They won't have VAT collected by Royal Mail. My guess is returned to sender or destroyed. No real way of knowing. High chance it'll never arrive.

2 - Pay for DHLs DDP service... This is apparently £35 on my order, which isn't really an option for me. I'll need a handful of bits from LCSC too, which is presumably a further £30 to DHL. It'll get here _real_ fast, but I honestly couldn't be less interested in that part. £45 spend suddenly comes in at ~£110, and I just can't justify that.

Unless anyone has a PCB place they know is getting VAT registered, or another workaround, it looks like this has killed my hobby PCB fun. Which I'm pretty annoyed about, to be honest... Can't see a way round it though. I'm tempted to place a smallish PCB order with JLC just to see what happens... I'm guessing they're not checking _every_ package, etc., though I suspect it's still a risk on an order-by-order basis.

And yes, it's not (directly) Brexit related, and the EU are doing this in 6 months too. The difference is that companies will only need to register once with the EU central VAT collection thing to sell into all member states, which is a substantially better incentive than tangling with HMRC just for the UK.