Turning lights off automatically

[jonovid]

if you have cell phone signal sensors built in to a light socket. most people under the age of___ are married to their phone

[james_s]

That is interesting. I researched Zigbee and it would appear that it uses the same part of the 2.4GHz band as WiFi and is said to interfere with it unless carefully set up. On the other hand, reliability is an important consideration as well. As it happens, a friend of mine has some home automation and has been complaining about the WiFi "freezing". They even had a Virgin Media engineer out to investigate and they found nothing. I would have to investigate further, but this might have just provided me with one possible explanation.

It's possible that I'm just lucky, but I have lots of zigbee devices, some bluetooth, 2.4GHz WiFi and a microwave oven in my house and everything coexists harmoniously. I don't think all of the available WiFi channels overlap zigbee. Also zigbee is used for low traffic stuff like home automation, just a few bytes flying around.

[SiliconWizard]

Don't worry too much though. Your government will find a way to do this for you.

[tom66]

Zigbee is also a mesh network*, so if a lightbulb can't reach the hub, it can hopefully receive commands through another bulb or device.  It's also only a few tens of kbit/s so not really a big deal if signal strength is weak as modulation scheme is minimal.

^{*Does not apply for (most) battery powered devices which act as receivers only}

[tooki]

if you have cell phone signal sensors built in to a light socket. most people under the age of___ are married to their phone

The correct answer for the blank is “100”. I actually find that many elderly people are more glued to their phones than young ones. (My theory is this: young people grew up with smartphones and understand that not every notification demands an immediate response. The elderly, in my observation, tend to treat every incoming call and text message with the utmost urgency, kinda like back in the landline days…)

[EPAIII]

Well, I don't know about over there, but here in the US the latest irritating thing is lights that automatically switch off in the public restrooms. And one without a window can get really dark with no light. Errrrrrrrr!!

It is all built into the switch which is located by the door. You might look at a local electric supply house. I would bet they have similar switches.

[tooki]

I mean, I’ve run into that problem, but I’ve only ever seen PIR motion sensors used for the purpose.

[james_s]

Well, I don't know about over there, but here in the US the latest irritating thing is lights that automatically switch off in the public restrooms. And one without a window can get really dark with no light. Errrrrrrrr!!

It is all built into the switch which is located by the door. You might look at a local electric supply house. I would bet they have similar switches.

A place I used to work put those stupid things in the bathroom, in the box by the door formerly containing the ordinary switches. More than once I had to wipe my ass in pitch darkness or by the light of my mobile phone screen.

[John B]

Those kinds of switches sound like something that died out in the early 2000's. They were used in public toilets. It was basically a slow release button that took a couple of minutes to turn itself off once it was pushed in. Utterly terrible, very annoying.

Maybe install one in the daughter's room?

[tom66]

Definitely still sold today, the old apartment I lived in had them, in the communal spaces where the landlord has to pay for the electricity.  Pneumatic or spring based I suspect.  But not ideal for that application: many frustrated residents had hit them and eventually they get stuck "on", completely defeating the point.

There are also modern electronic versions which work fine, but have the same frustration.  Still could be ok for low occupancy areas, like utility rooms and garages, as long as there is an override too.

[themadhippy]

It was basically a slow release button that took a couple of minutes to turn itself off once it was pushed in

the original version could easily be bypassed with a match stick,push in button and wedge a match stick between button and case

[james_s]

Those kinds of switches sound like something that died out in the early 2000's. They were used in public toilets. It was basically a slow release button that took a couple of minutes to turn itself off once it was pushed in. Utterly terrible, very annoying.

Maybe install one in the daughter's room?

Those do sound annoying. At least the ones I'm referring to have PIR sensors, but when they're installed in place of conventional switches the PIR sensors often are in a far from optimal location to see occupants of the room. We have them in the conference rooms at the place I currently work and they're fine in those, anyone present anywhere in the room is enough to keep the lights on.

[AVGresponding]

Those kinds of switches sound like something that died out in the early 2000's. They were used in public toilets. It was basically a slow release button that took a couple of minutes to turn itself off once it was pushed in. Utterly terrible, very annoying.

Maybe install one in the daughter's room?

Those do sound annoying. At least the ones I'm referring to have PIR sensors, but when they're installed in place of conventional switches the PIR sensors often are in a far from optimal location to see occupants of the room. We have them in the conference rooms at the place I currently work and they're fine in those, anyone present anywhere in the room is enough to keep the lights on.

If they are relatively still, ie reading a book or something, the sensor won't pick them up. Microwave sensors aren't really any better either, I find it very annoying to have to wave at the damn things every 5, 10, 15 minutes, or whatever the timer has been set at.

If you're slow enough, you can move past a PIR without setting it off, haven't tried it with a mw sensor though.

[Kasper]

[...]I find it very annoying to have to wave at the damn things every 5, 10, 15 minutes, or whatever the timer has been set at.

A contact sensor on the door and a bit of logic can help with that: room can't become vacant while door is closed.

[james_s]

[...]I find it very annoying to have to wave at the damn things every 5, 10, 15 minutes, or whatever the timer has been set at.

A contact sensor on the door and a bit of logic can help with that: room can't become vacant while door is closed.

I think you'd have trouble making that reliable. It's fairly common for somebody to open the door as they are entering/exiting and then somebody else passes the other way before it closes. There are also times when multiple people will enter a room at once and only a portion of them leave.

[Kasper]

[...]I find it very annoying to have to wave at the damn things every 5, 10, 15 minutes, or whatever the timer has been set at.

A contact sensor on the door and a bit of logic can help with that: room can't become vacant while door is closed.

I think you'd have trouble making that reliable. It's fairly common for somebody to open the door as they are entering/exiting and then somebody else passes the other way before it closes. There are also times when multiple people will enter a room at once and only a portion of them leave.

It's extra info into a system that suffers from lack of info.  Don't rely on it heavily and it can yield an improvement.  Don't remove the occupancy hold time, just make it longer when you think the room is occupied.

If it falsely assumes an occupied room is vacant for example when someone leaves while the remaining occupants sit still then you have the same problem and solution as before: wave your arm.

If it causes a false assumption an empty room is occupied then lights stay on a bit longer than they would have otherwise but perhaps without this system the lights would always stay on that long anyways because people get tired of waving their arms and increase the occupancy hold time.  Either way, this case should be rare with a motion sensor of decent quality. 

[james_s]

I suppose it is an improvement, still I would prefer a conventional switch, or a conventional switch augmented by an occupancy sensor that turns off the light after an hour or two, or at a fixed time after the business is closed. Modern lighting uses so little power that I don't think it's worth major efforts to shut it off constantly, it would be better to teach people to turn it off when not needed, or have it shut off at night but leave it alone the rest of the time.

[Kasper]

I agree for some lights, it doesn't seem worth it.  If you're using occupancy to adjust HVAC limits, then it could be worth it.  In that case the lights are a warning to the occupants: wave your arm or else the temperature is going to get slightly less comfortable in here.

[MathWizard]

Yeah there should be lots of smartbulbs these days. But for older ways, there's relays and SCR/triac type stuff, which I don't have laying around.

But what about wall mounted devices, that would flick the switch, with the use of a little motor, or spring, or electromagnet to release some latch, etc. Does anyone try making something like that ? I sometimes think of trying to make such a thing, but IDK, I walk by the switches all the time anyways.

I would like to make an alarm for my stove, and my house doors too.

[james_s]

Yeah there should be lots of smartbulbs these days. But for older ways, there's relays and SCR/triac type stuff, which I don't have laying around.

But what about wall mounted devices, that would flick the switch, with the use of a little motor, or spring, or electromagnet to release some latch, etc. Does anyone try making something like that ? I sometimes think of trying to make such a thing, but IDK, I walk by the switches all the time anyways.

I would like to make an alarm for my stove, and my house doors too.

I don't think I've ever seen a motorized switch like that but it would be cool.

The switches in most office buildings are spring loaded and rest in the center. You push up to turn the light on and down to turn it off. They traditionally would control latching relays that mount in a junction box for the first light on the run, I don't know if it's still done like that.

[Kasper]

I don't think I've ever seen a motorized switch like that but it would be cool.

Speaking of cool ways to flip a switch, here is one for water valves:

https://www.amazon.ca/Dome-Automation-Water-Shut-Off-Valve/dp/B01LX3JFR8

[themadhippy]

But what about wall mounted devices, that would flick the switch, with the use of a little motor, or spring, or electromagnet to release some latch, etc. Does anyone try making something like that ? I sometimes think of trying to make such a thing, but IDK, I walk by the switches all the time anyway

The switches in most office buildings are spring loaded and rest in the center

Realy? cant recall 1 instance were ive seen that sort of switching arrangement in the many 100's of office buildings ive worked in.

[tom66]

Definitely a commercial product

https://www.amazon.co.uk/MoesGo-Bluetooth-Fingerbot-Wireless-Compatible/dp/B09XF1R3R2

Popular in rented places where you're not allowed to ... ahem ... not supposed to modify the electrics.

[SmallCog]

We have PIR sensors with an integrated timer in our open plan office at work.

They worked OK in the middle of the day when there's often someone wandering around but from time to time with people just sitting at their desks/benches they'd plunge the place into darkness.

Once they offloaded all non-essentials to work from home at the start of Covid and only had 2 people in the building at a time it got downright annoying so we looped them all out.

[MathWizard]

themadhippy, yeah that's  along the lines of what a lot of people could make. And I know myself I used to take apart TV's and stereo's, like many hobbiest, just collecting parts. But I've yet to play around with any of the IR stuff I have. I should, but IDK. Actually I should try to make my something for my outdoor lights. This winter I'll have time and money, I should make something.