Trying to choose a camcorder..

[MrAureliusR]

So I've been wanting to make more YouTube videos lately (teardowns, updates about what I'm learning/working on) and I've been using my phone camera, which is pretty crap. I'm thinking about treating myself to a nice (in my opinion) camcorder, in the $70-150 range on the used/refurbished/eBay/made in China market.

I've been spending a LOT of time searching eBay for good prices. I'm looking for something with at least a 3.0MP sensor, that's hopefully capable of 1080p. Manual focus is almost definitely a must, optical zoom is nice but not completely necessary. SD card expansion is also a must. So far I've found the JVC Everio line is fairly reasonably priced and meets all my requirements except the sensor resolution seems to be a bit low on some of their models.

The other line that looks a bit more promising is the Toshiba Camileo. The x200 and x400 in particular seem to meet all my needs and more. I've found a seller here in Canada selling the x400 for $149.00USD which is on the high end of what I might be able to afford. There's also the SX900 (which is a slimmer, more portable version) for $129.99CDN.

However, I've also been looking at the Chinese Saturday Night Special models. Some of them are actually rather impressive. They seem to be fairly solidly built, and because they're not name brand you get high sensor resolution for a lot less. I don't mind Chinglish or bad UIs, as long as it records and transfers video files I don't mind. Manual focus is the only other must in the cheaper end.

For example, I've found these ones:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/321234414478?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649 (This one seems to have a macro zoom, which is good -- also, it's only about $77CDN)
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/271320454492?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649 (5MP, 16MP interpolated resolution, similar price to some of the name brand ones but with more features)
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/271036179438?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649 (this one is a bonus as it has a tele lens and remote)
EDIT: Added this one, I kind of the like the 'camera' shaped ones:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/270992174999?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

Plus a few more, all in that sort of price range and style, all varying in features and/or resolution.

I could REALLY use some reviews/advice here, as the last time I used a camcorder it had a tape in it. Actually, once I used one that still used the mini-DVDs as well. I really, really want one that supports SD, and ideally at least 32GB, if not all the way up to 128GB.

Thanks in advance for recommendations!!

[BravoV]

Any chance of get rid of that SpeedTest box in your sig ? Please ? 

[MrAureliusR]

Any chance of get rid of that SpeedTest box in your sig ? Please ? 

Is it really that big of a deal? The image is only 30.8Kb...

[mariush]

Nobody here cares about your internet speed, this is an electronics forum.  It's just wasting bandwidth and screen real estate.

As for what camera to choose, if you're really serious about making a lot of videos, you may wish to buy a camera with

* an external microphone jack AND
* lens support so you could put a lens for macros, for example when you want to shoot a close up of a breadboard AND
* tripod support, so your images are not shaking and compress well

I recorded some videos using a Sony HDR-SR5E that I bought from eBay for about 160$ which has everything but the external microphone jack, but has good "5.1" microphone included which doesn't let much background noise.

The camera records in AVCHD 16mbps 1440x1080i anamorphic (expands in 1920x1080) and looks great - you don't really need the camera to be 1080p, it's more important to compress what it captures with good quality. Cheap cameras use cheap encoder-on-chip systems with lousy quality.

What you linked to is crap.. some no-brand camera that tries to imitate a Canon, some toy which probably uses a webcam sensor as it does only 720p, some chinese clones .... ( vivikai.. tries to sound like vivitar which is also crap?)

Look for a used Canon / Sony / Panasonic camera on eBay .. look for ebay.com and ebay.co.uk and ebay.de as well, you may get prices better then ebay.ca even with the extra shipping.

[Flump]

I cant comment on the cameras you have listed as I have never tried them
but I use an Olympus SH-50 and get good results, especially indoors
so maybe worth considering

http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/digital-cameras/1302481/olympus-stylus-sh-50

[Stonent]

Flump got infected too.

[EEVblog]

So I've been wanting to make more YouTube videos lately (teardowns, updates about what I'm learning/working on) and I've been using my phone camera, which is pretty crap. I'm thinking about treating myself to a nice (in my opinion) camcorder, in the $70-150 range on the used/refurbished/eBay/made in China market.

Forget getting anything like decent image quality at that price!
But they likely will be a bit better than your phone at least.

So far I've found the JVC Everio line is fairly reasonably priced and meets all my requirements except the sensor resolution seems to be a bit low on some of their models.

Forget resolution when you have bottom range optics and bottom range sensor size.

I could REALLY use some reviews/advice here

Advice:
- Find one with the lowest optical zoom range. That means the sensor should be bigger and the manufacturer hasn't traded off sensor size/quality for a gimicky marketing zoom number. <x10 optical zoom is a good rule of thumb.
- I would look for an older 2nd hand top line or mid line unit rather with quality optics and sensor than a new bottom range unit
- All but the top range unit suck in low light. And by "low light" I mean normal indoor room light levels.
- Avoid anything that is not a big brand name, e.g. Canon, Panasonic, JVC, Sony
- Audio can be more important than video, get one with an external mic jack (or known good quality built-in mic)
- A lens mount that can support an Opteka x10 macro lens for close up work
- Anything greater than say 35mm equivalent wide angle will be annoying in crowded spaces. Try to get 30mm or less.

[nctnico]

Also look at regular photo camera's. My Canon Ixus 1000HS (high end compact camera) films 1080p without any problems. Actually it beats the crap out of our digital handicam.

[SLJ]

So Dave,  what do you use? 
Your audio sounds good. You must be using an external microphone.  Not too much room echo/noise on your videos.

[Stonent]

I've been considering a real camcorder of some kind.  I've been filming my youtube videos on Android phones and it's getting difficult to hold the phone and do stuff. Also the last two phones I've owned just seem to want to make me sound far away despite the fact my mouth is inches from the microphone.

[Corporate666]

Get a used point-and-shoot from a year or so ago that takes good video.

Check out this:

http://www.techhive.com/product/collection/5587/best-point-and-shoot-video-quality.html

The #1 rated point-and-shoot for video, the Lumix DMX-LX5 can be had for $120-140 on eBay.  It will be FAR better than anything you can buy new for that price. 

[EEVblog]

So Dave,  what do you use? 
Your audio sounds good. You must be using an external microphone.  Not too much room echo/noise on your videos.

Canon HF G10.
I use the internal (which is excellent) for most stuff behind the camera. I have a Rode Videomic Pro for work in front of the camera, but the acoustics in my lab suck, the aircon noise (even from next door) gets easily picked up. I used that if I'm too lazy to hook up the lapel mic, or I'm very close to the camera lens, like in the intros.
I use a Audio-Technica lapel mic with 6m cable for my other on-camera stuff, like the whiteboard tutorial which has the camera a good couple of meters away so both me and the board are in focus.

[MrAureliusR]

Thanks for all the advice everyone! (I removed the Speedtest image from my signature for those who requested me to do so)

I still haven't decided but I think I'll probably go for one of the Toshiba Camileo ones.

I am also looking at external mics, some of the Toshiba ones do have an input for an external mic. I'm certainly not aiming for EEVBlog quality -- I can't afford it, and really anything other than my phone will be, to me, amazing! I'll post on here once I pick on and I'll probably throw up a review for others on a budget who are looking at their options.

Thanks again everyone -- I always take your advice and recommendations seriously. Special thanks to Dave for sharing his choices!

[george graves]

Mic input, it's a must have.

The canon hf/vixia has a nice range of cameras. 

[MrAureliusR]

So I ended up picking up the JVC Everio S GZ-MS120. It's far from hi-def but I paid $59.15CDN in an auction on eBay Canada -- and it comes with everything that it was orignally sold with (including packaging). I bought it from a seller I've bought from before -- they seem to buy surplus stock and/or manufacturer refurbs and/or returned opened items from retailers in Canada. Then they resell them on eBay if they're in good working condition. The last thing I bought from them was basically new in the box, for about $100 less than in store.

I will probably end up upgrading to an HD camera in the next couple of months, but for now this will be a HUGE step up. I'm also going to invest in a USB microscope for up-close stuff.

My other question is, what is good, free, (preferably open-source and/or Linux-compatible, though I do run Windows) video-editing software? I was trained on software I believe was called Adobe Elements at the time, though I think the software has a different name now. I am fairly good at using software like that. My computer is definitely powerful enough to do high-quality rendering. I'm not sure if the camcorder comes with software, but if it does, then it will be included in my purchase as the listing says it comes with the original software.

Any and all recommendations are appreciated! And all the above advice was taken to heart. I'm looking for a decent external mic, and I'm also going to pick up a decent tripod.

- Anything greater than say 35mm equivalent wide angle will be annoying in crowded spaces. Try to get 30mm or less.

I just looked up the one I grabbed, it's 30.5mm lens. So pretty good!

Thanks!

[george graves]

Well.  I hate to break it to you, but you bought a low end, SD camera with no inputs, and most likely really bad optics.  You would have been better off buying a HD web cam for the money you spent.

BTW - it's not even DVD quality (720x480) it's only 640x480   

A quick look at it seems to record in some propriety file format.  So most likely you're going to have to transcode all the footage before you can even edit the footage.  A major PITA.  You want to be able to drag and drop the camera's file into your media bin. 

As for software, in the free or low cost range, they all kinda have their own issues.  It mainly comes down to the UI.  Pick one that you fell comefortable with.  You'll be pulling your hair out no matter what one you choose.

[MrAureliusR]

Well.  I hate to break it to you, but you bought a low end, SD camera with no inputs, and most likely really bad optics.  You would have been better off buying a HD web cam for the money you spent.

BTW - it's not even DVD quality (720x480) it's only 640x480   

A quick look at it seems to record in some propriety file format.  So most likely you're going to have to transcode all the footage before you can even edit the footage.  A major PITA.  You want to be able to drag and drop the camera's file into your media bin. 

As for software, in the free or low cost range, they all kinda have their own issues.  It mainly comes down to the UI.  Pick one that you fell comefortable with.  You'll be pulling your hair out no matter what one you choose.

As far as I can tell, the video resolution is MPEG2 720 x 480. So I don't know where you got your info but I'm getting different specs. And you don't have to break anything to me -- I made the choice to go low-end and buy a more expensive HD camera down the line. (Actually, I'm bidding on one right now, though I probably won't get it).

EDIT: Yup, just double-checked that in the PDF manual for the camera: ULTRA FINE: 720 x 480 pixels, 8.5 Mbps (VBR). Stills can go up to 832 x 624. It actually seems like a great little camera from what I can gather.

[Zad]

Check your local Ebay for manufacturer refurbished equipment. For instance, this is from Ebay UK (and we usually get ripped off at a rate of 1GBP=1USD).

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Canon-Legria-HF-R37-Full-HD-Camcorder-Refurbished-1-Year-Warranty-/291004725158

Canon refurbished HF R37 Full HD with 1 year Canon warranty. £130

[nctnico]

Well.  I hate to break it to you, but you bought a low end, SD camera with no inputs, and most likely really bad optics.  You would have been better off buying a HD web cam for the money you spent.

BTW - it's not even DVD quality (720x480) it's only 640x480   

A quick look at it seems to record in some propriety file format.  So most likely you're going to have to transcode all the footage before you can even edit the footage.  A major PITA.  You want to be able to drag and drop the camera's file into your media bin. 

We bought an Everio years ago and it is a big waste of money indeed. Edit: and it records in interlaced format so playback on a computer is unwatchable.

[MrAureliusR]

Well.  I hate to break it to you, but you bought a low end, SD camera with no inputs, and most likely really bad optics.  You would have been better off buying a HD web cam for the money you spent.

BTW - it's not even DVD quality (720x480) it's only 640x480   

A quick look at it seems to record in some propriety file format.  So most likely you're going to have to transcode all the footage before you can even edit the footage.  A major PITA.  You want to be able to drag and drop the camera's file into your media bin. 

We bought an Everio years ago and it is a big waste of money indeed.

Really? Why? Everything I can find about this camera says that it is a great little camera, that has a decent sensor, records in a standard format at DVD quality, and has drag and drop copying, not to mention direct connection to YouTube (not that I'd use that feature). Plus the included software makes it really easy to import all the files. Or you can just pop out the SD card and copy the files from that.

What's the issue? I have a feeling there are many models in the Everio line, some of which suck. Maybe that's where the mix-up is coming from.

EDIT: It will be here tomorrow, so I'll post a review in this thread, along with some sample video.

[george graves]

We bought an Everio years ago and it is a big waste of money indeed. Edit: and it records in interlaced format so playback on a computer is unwatchable.

Well, you could deinterlace it - but you'd be blending fields.  The other problem with DVD/DV resolution and youtube is that youtube won't give you a quality stream.   They assume anything at that resolution is coming from a featured phone/low end camera/etc - or an VHS tape...so they give you a lower quality encode on their end.

For example:  Shoot something in HD.  Then encode it for youtube at both 720 and 480.  Upload.  Then watch them both side by side and force both players to show you the 480 stream on both.  The video you uploaded at 480 will be at a much lower quality.

[MrAureliusR]

Why is interlaced such a big deal? As long as you encode things properly it looks fine to me. It's not like I'm filming race cars or something, there won't be a lot of movement. As mentioned before, anything is better than my crappy smartphone camera.

Anyway, thanks again for the warnings -- I'll be sure to watch out for interlaced 'splitting'

[mariush]

h264 (the video codec used by Youtube) has two modes of compressing interlaced content.  the open source x264 codec only supports one mode of encoding interlaced content, and in addition a large part of optimizations and quality settings are disabled or reduced when handling interlaced content.
Simply put, the developers of the open source x264 don't focus/don't care about making interlaced content encode well. 

As Youtube encodes videos with an effort into making them stream well (no large fluctuations in bitrate, steady bitrate etc) these additional constrains of the video codec used to re-compress your content gives you further reduction in quality.

Generally, you should do a conversion to progressive video in your video editor as a final step, try not to upload interlaced content to youtube.

[fluxcapacitor]

Personally i think its a decent camcorder for the price paid. These are the specs from the manual,  :

Recording/Playback format - Video:   MPEG-2
Audio:   Dolby Digital (2 ch)

Recording mode (video)
ULTRA FINE: 720 x 480 pixels,  8.5 Mbps (VBR)
FINE:   720 x 480 pixels, 5.5 Mbps (VBR)
NORMAL:   720 x 480 pixels, 4.2 Mbps (VBR)
ECONOMY:  352 x 240 pixels, 1.5 Mbps (VBR)

Recording mode (audio)
ULTRA FINE: 48 kHz, 384 kbps
FINE:   48 kHz, 384 kbps
NORMAL:   48 kHz, 256 kbps
ECONOMY:  48 kHz, 128 kbps

Camera/LCD monitor
Pickup
1/6" (800,000 pixels) progressive CCD

Connectors
AV output
Video output: 1.0 V (p-p), 75 ?
Audio output: 300 mV (rms), 1 k?
USB
Mini USB type A and type B,
USB 2.0 compliant

[SLJ]

After looking around and trying to keep the budget at a minimum I just purchased the Canon HF R400.  An external mic will be next after I play with the camera a little.
Now the search to find free editing software starts.  If anyone has suggestions let me know.