To those who think they "Made It" in Engeneering: What was your path?

[tszaboo]

I wonder if EE legends like Jim William, Bob Pease and Bob Widlar actually even ever "made bank". The love and passion for their art seemed to be their overwhelming drive.

I agree. One of my mentors once told me that EE is probably the worst job (requiring a formal education) where it comes to money.

Depends on the country. In Hungary for example, being an EE is one of the best paying jobs, top 10 for the national averages. EE pay more than any other engineering discipline.
The trick is, they have to pay good wages, or the candidate will just leave to West Europe and get that wage for themselves.

The only way this job will have the wages for the amount of skill we put in, if we collectively stop accepting bad job offers.

[szszoke]

Does software engineering count?

[Jay_Diddy_B]

Hi,

I consider that I have done very well in the field of engineering. I don't want to get into specific details for privacy reasons.

You can measure how well you are doing, or expect to do, by looking at the salary surveys.

Here is a link to one:

https://www.ospe.on.ca/public/documents/general/Member_Market_Summary_2018.pdf

Here is a section:





These are Canadian Dollars, multiply by 0.8 for USD.


I am been fortunate to be in the 95+ percentile on the salary scale. I have always been in the technical side, as oppose to the management side of the 'OR' in the chart.

My path:

1) Interest in electronics from early age.
2) World class university education, from a university that ranks in the top ten world-wide. We were taught to solve problems that had not been seen before. Learning current technology will not be much use in the future.
3) Specialization in power and analog electronics.
4) 25 years as a senior design engineer. Not always easy.
5) Staff level engineering position reporting to Silicon Valley without living there 

There was a certain amount of luck. I have a lot of fun and met a lot of great people along the way.

Is it reproducible? Why don't you report back in 25 years 

Jay_Diddy_B

[tom66]

I have to say of the engineers I know (and I'm probably biased because it's how I started) but an early interest in engineering has been really key to their success.  Those who just went in because it was a good career or they could make money doing it are doing okay, but rarely do they get beyond a middle level.   I know a npw-retired CTO who started programming at the age of 10.  It's fascinating - I wonder what puts people on this path - biological fluke or having the right parents or some combination of both?

[nctnico]

I wonder if EE legends like Jim William, Bob Pease and Bob Widlar actually even ever "made bank". The love and passion for their art seemed to be their overwhelming drive.

I agree. One of my mentors once told me that EE is probably the worst job (requiring a formal education) where it comes to money.

Depends on the country. In Hungary for example, being an EE is one of the best paying jobs, top 10 for the national averages. EE pay more than any other engineering discipline.
The trick is, they have to pay good wages, or the candidate will just leave to West Europe and get that wage for themselves.

Good for them. But you leave out the part where the cost of living is likely to be lower in Hungary. Making a lot of money doesn't help if you have to spend most of it on a home and food.

[RoGeorge]

To sum it up, from lowest to highest importance:
  1. work hard
  2. be good at it
  3. have the right connections
  4. be lucky

1 and 2 will bring you a decent income.
3 and 4 will bring you big money and/or fame.

Overall, the chances to say "Made It!" in engineering are about the same as the chances to say "Jackpot!" in Las Vegas.
 

[Gregg]

Assuming a person has the talent and motivation to make it; the biggest help along the way is to make and keep connections with like-minded individuals and help each other along the way.  Never burn your bridges, make as many amicable connections as possible.  You never know, the intern you helped may just recommend you for a better position later on.  Always be ready and available to jump ship for a better position; but arrange it so there are little or no hard feelings.  Consider every job as a stepping stone toward something better.

[paulca]

I grew up in a poor community with a single Mum.  I left school before I got GCSEs.  I returned later and got 4 GCSEs, but I hung along while my friends at Uni partied... but I was not at Uni, just enjoying the party scene.  I signed up for my degree at 21 with the Open University and started a degree.  Convinced I "couldn't do it."  I'd been rejected from local lesser courses.

My friends said, "give up, get a job in Tescos like everyone else."  I lost my girlfriend of 7 years over refusing to give up on that dream and getting a "normal" job.

5 years later I had a Bachelor of Science in Computing and a Technology.

2 years after that I landed a job at 20K.  Double or triple the  "normal job" wage.

I lost friends along the way through this, but I hung tight to my dreams.... behind schedules, late in the game, but I was determined.

Today, I probably earn enough to pay their wages each month.

But you never reclaim the friends lost.  You can't go back.

Today.  I'm well embedded in my community of engineers making real world changes for real world people and making an absolute shed ton of money doing it. 

Those who doubted me, shamed me. 

[fourfathom]

Holy crap @fourfathom. Damn you were the person I had In mind when I posted my question, $7.2 billion exit for your company, congratulations. I have a few questions for you:
how did you decide on Cerent?
There are hundreds of new startups each year with compelling products, what do you look for In a startup?
On staying on the technical track, it is relatively easy to be a middle manager, how did you have your engineering capabilities and contributions valued at the same level?
What advice would you give to your 25 year old self? what about educational attainment?

To be honest, my good fortune was hugely dependent on luck, and far beyond my most optimistic expectations.  Looking back, there were choices and inflection points, but we all know the story of how a hurricane might be triggered by the flapping of a butterfly's wings in Africa.  I have no way of knowing which, if any, of the decisions I made actually affected the outcome.  Cerent could have easily crashed and burned -- we came very close to that on a few occasions. 

How did I decide on Cerent?  My boss and I had already been through one startup (as engineers), which was a modest success and had been acquired a few years previously.  We were being treated well but were getting bored with the incremental product support and enhancements, and with the big-company atmosphere.  There were other startups spinning off in our "Telecom Valley" area and we were looking for new opportunities.  Vinod Khosla (one of the founders of Sun Microsystems and a partner at Kleiner Perkins -- one of the big V.C. firms) had an idea, and was working with some ASIC designers who wanted to start a company.  They needed a team with System experience, and contacted my boss.  We met with them and kicked some ideas around, ultimately deciding to form the company.  I helped recruit more engineers and staff and we took it from there. As it turned out, what we eventually developed was pretty far from Vinod's initial vision.  This story is told pretty well in that book I mentioned (https://www.amazon.com/Upstart-Startup-Cerent-Transformed-Cisco/dp/1505303826) .

As I mentioned, there were other startups that I might have joined, but the chance to do something fresh on our own terms (as much as that is possible) sounded like way more fun.  I didn't realize how far and fast our area of the network would be exploding, but there were indications that the time was ripe.  We had the enthusiastic backing of a major VC, and I felt that if Cerent (initially "Fiberlane") failed, I would have plenty of opportunities to continue my career growth.

What would I look for in a startup?  I don't really know, and have made a few (in retrospect) poor choices when investing or assisting in new startups after I retired.  But it depends on your goals and tolerance for risk.  For a big payday you want very early stage companies with smart people, solid financial backing, and a product plan that makes sense for an emerging market.  But a relatively green engineer will have a hard time getting hired at the earliest stage -- they need experts and people who can wear many hats.  Once the design and implementation phases get into gear there will be a need for less senior people, but the potential payoff will be smaller.  But by this time the risk is somewhat lessened (still pretty high though).  And hardware engineering is only one factor in a company's success.  Sales, marketing, *software*, availability of expansion capital, the competition,  the customers (and sometimes the politics) all have to come together.  And this is all generalization.  Good VCs look at all these factors and they still get it wrong more often than not.

Is it easy to be a middle manager?  That depends on you.  I'm a pretty crappy manager, and I despise the required rigid adherence to schedules (at least in the early stages of a significant technical challenge).  I'm a better team leader and mentor, but in the startup I did what I needed to do (and usually what I was supposed to do).  Fortunately, in the early stages I had a strong team of motivated engineers.  This is a big reason why I prefer startups -- we're all generally pulling in the same direction.  In an established company there are more conflicting and competing projects, and often more "empire building".  In my limited management career, I was always an engineer first, and usually took on some challenging and interesting tasks, while managing a few junior team members.  I expect that different companies have different policies on this. but I would never consider a position where I couldn't get my hands dirty.  In my experience, middle managers aren't compensated much better than good engineers.  Again --  other places, other outcomes.

Advice to my 25-year-old self?  Back then I was an engineering tech, or "associate engineer", doing what I enjoyed.  I had (and have) no degree, and wasn't making much money.  I suppose I would tell myself to hang in there, keep learning, and look for opportunities to grow.  Break out of your ruts.  Stay positive, make friends.   Which is what I did.  But as I said before, chaos reigns supreme.

I am a generalist, with a few areas of specialization and huge holes in my knowledge.  But being a generalist I am (perhaps) more able to use techniques common in one domain and apply them in others.  This lets me work around my knowledge gaps and occasionally yields an elegant solution.  But I also recognize when my limitations will create difficulties, and am not afraid to turn to experts for help.

[fourfathom]

And hardware engineering is only one factor in a company's success.  Sales, marketing, *software*, availability of expansion capital, the competition,  the customers (and sometimes the politics) all have to come together.

In writing this I was thinking of a company that plans to make products and sell them to customers.  But often the goal is to develop a product or technology and be acquired in the early stages.  A startup may be formed with a particular acquiring company in mind.  In this case sales, marketing, expansion etc, is less of an issue.

But in our case, the sales team was perhaps as important as the product itself.  As an engineer I like to badmouth sales, but our guys were critical to our success and to the expansion of our acquiring company (Cisco) as they penetrated the more traditional telecom market space.  Our sales team had earned the trust of our customers, not only while at Cerent, but in their previous jobs.  There weren't used-car salesmen, they were experts in the field, many with engineering backgrounds -- but still killer salesmen.