Thinking about leaving the UK

[TimFox]

I'm not sure going from the UK to the US would be an improvement 

Not necessary. We (USA) do have some things that may be attractive. We drive on the correct side of the road, still use the imperial system to honor British history. The BBQ is world class. 

No, we use “conventional units”, not “imperial” units.
The most important difference between them is the US gallon vs. the imperial gallon (and the corresponding pints).

I thought the US used "Tyrant King George III With US Characteristics" units.

We went metric in 1959, but forgot to tell anyone.
The Declaration of Independence cites many bad acts of George III, but nothing about weights and measures.

[tooki]

And of course the rest of the world forgot to actually eliminate many non-metric things when they “went metric”. Tons and tons of pipes (and corresponding threads) remain non-metric, tire sizes are still that crazy mm/%/inch mess, and aviation still uses feet and nautical miles.

[watchmaker]

There are two ways to deal with measurement systems.  Get digital measuring instruments (calipers, mic, DRO)  Electrical engineers solved the problem. 

Just don't get confused if you are trying to land something on Mars!

[tggzzz]

I'm not sure going from the UK to the US would be an improvement 

Not necessary. We (USA) do have some things that may be attractive. We drive on the correct side of the road, still use the imperial system to honor British history. The BBQ is world class. 

No, we use “conventional units”, not “imperial” units.
The most important difference between them is the US gallon vs. the imperial gallon (and the corresponding pints).

And long ton vs short ton (c.f. metric ton)

[Sal Ammoniac]

   Yes, definitely avoid California and aim for some place like Florida or Texas where the economy is booming and the cities don't look like a third world ghetto.

The California economy is the 5th largest in the world, exceeding that of most countries, including the UK, France, and Italy.

California cities looking like third world ghettos is just propaganda. I've lived here most of my life and have rarely encountered anything like a third world ghetto in California cities. Yes, the big cities have some bad areas, but so do cities like London and Paris.

The weather is nice--no snow in the winter, but in the winter you can go skiing in the mountains in the morning and surfing in the Pacific in the afternoon. We have more national parks than any other state, including Yosemite, Death Valley, Redwood, Sequoia, and King's Canyon.

[os40la]

I'm not sure going from the UK to the US would be an improvement 

Not necessary. We (USA) do have some things that may be attractive. We drive on the correct side of the road, still use the imperial system to honor British history. The BBQ is world class. 

Wow, I didn't intend to start off a measuring unit debate when I was just joking with Dave’s comment. 
How about the whole world just switch to Smoot as a new standard and end this this for good. 

[deadly_penguin]

So this blew up.
I'm not thinking of leaving too soon, really when the next job change comes up - more for a change of scenery than anything, though more options than "tiny cash-strapped company or massive defence/consultancy firm" might be a nice addition.
I'd not really seen much about electronics in Scandinavia past the remains of Nokia, but that might be worth a better look. Norway/Denmark/Finland look nice if the work is there.

The wife's actually from California and I know how expensive it is, but some bits are nice and if the pay is enough it's got its attractions (though so does everywhere). My biggest problem with the States is how you feel like being fleeced all the time - tax isn't on the price tag, that's extra. Bloody tipping everywhere. Short measures at the pub (not pints, just disappointment). But whatever, they're livable. The whole healthcare thing looks nasty and off-putting, but hasn't bitten the inlaws.

[IanB]

California cities looking like third world ghettos is just propaganda. I've lived here most of my life and have rarely encountered anything like a third world ghetto in California cities. Yes, the big cities have some bad areas, but so do cities like London and Paris.

Portland (Oregon) is apparently a disaster area, and much of San Francisco is also very bad. Much of this is because the police generally ignore crime.

[TimFox]

Pints vary between the two countries (imperial vs. US measure) and tipping is a nuisance.
American health care is excellent, so long as the health insurance benefit from your employer is good.
Be sure to verify the insurance when negotiating employment.
Recent trends in healthcare are that city and suburban hospitals, etc. improve, but facilities are slipping in rural areas—probably not so important a difference for engineering jobs.
Another important consideration when comparing US regions is commuting:  highways, public transportation (if any), and distance between employment location and affordable housing.
Also if the areas of affordable housing are dull and boring.
Finally, the climate varies dramatically over the “lower 48”.  Many people are paranoid about cold weather (with seasonal variations) and find themselves in summers with lethal outdoor temperatures requiring air conditioning.

[Sal Ammoniac]

much of San Francisco is also very bad.

Again, propaganda. I live a 25-minute drive from SF and spend a lot of time there. Yes, the Tenderloin neighborhood is skudgy, but most of the rest is not. It's pretty much like most other cities. I love London, but wouldn't want to spend time in Brixton after dark, for example. Ditto for some parts of Paris.

[TimFox]

Sometimes, I ask my rural relatives if they are discussing the Chicago where I live, or the one they see on TV.

[CatalinaWOW]

   Yes, definitely avoid California and aim for some place like Florida or Texas where the economy is booming and the cities don't look like a third world ghetto.

The California economy is the 5th largest in the world, exceeding that of most countries, including the UK, France, and Italy.

California cities looking like third world ghettos is just propaganda. I've lived here most of my life and have rarely encountered anything like a third world ghetto in California cities. Yes, the big cities have some bad areas, but so do cities like London and Paris.

The weather is nice--no snow in the winter, but in the winter you can go skiing in the mountains in the morning and surfing in the Pacific in the afternoon. We have more national parks than any other state, including Yosemite, Death Valley, Redwood, Sequoia, and King's Canyon.

While this is all true, I did a happy dance on leaving California.  The problem is that California is too nice and is wall to wall people both because of natural increase and immigration, with a nice topping of visitors.  Freeways, beaches and recreation areas are all packed.   In the 1970s when I wanted to visit one of those parks it was just a matter of driving out there, and in off seasons you were almost alone.  Now at least three of those require reservations and are well attended year round.

Affordable housing is a long ways from baseball stadiums, theaters and other key facilities.  And taxes and prices are among the highest in the country.  If you like urban living, have a stake large enough to get close in housing, do your homework to avoid the ghetto areas (which are indeed a small part of the whole, but a small part of the fifth largest economy in the world is large relative to some countries) and don't mind sharing public spaces with lots of people California does indeed have many positive attributes.

[Benta]

I'd not really seen much about electronics in Scandinavia past the remains of Nokia, but that might be worth a better look. Norway/Denmark/Finland look nice if the work is there.

That's a very naïve view of the world.
If you only look for the 800-lb gorillas (eg, Nokia), options are very limited.
But the world is full of small/mid-sized companies bringing very innovative stuff out. Many are family or fund owned, and have a completely different attitude to employees than investor or shareholder companies have.

[SiliconWizard]

But, for engineering, the UK is still a world leader in many areas, especially in software and electronics.

You need to get out more. The UK is now so irrelevant to electronics that most of the component vendors who used to have substantial local sales operations in the UK now work through a tiny representative office, or the distributors.

Yes I figured that from one past forum user.

[RJSV]

   If you can, try to view the movie,
 'OFFICE SPACE'.
   That movie, at least the first 1/3 of it, attempts to capture (your) life, in a hypothetical 1987 tech start-up.   Exploring many myths, but they do capture some essential 'looks', with the concrete 'tilt-up' construction and half-partitions.

   Some of that movie is dated, but they do capture an essence, of the Santa Clara valley experience, that also applies to a few Los Angeles area city's, again circa 1987.

You had the blue collar folks, in mix with engineers, and a sarcastic dig, on contrasts;
   A magazine subscription vendor making more than his original title (Software Engineer).

   It's all 1987, in my opinion, but still more than simple comedy and satire.

- - Rick B.  near Santa Clara, CA.

[pcprogrammer]

   Yes, definitely avoid California and aim for some place like Florida or Texas where the economy is booming and the cities don't look like a third world ghetto.

The California economy is the 5th largest in the world, exceeding that of most countries, including the UK, France, and Italy.

Is this mostly due to the movie industry? For sure an industry where big money flows around.

Or is it still due to engineering with big companies like Apple and Google. (Or a sum of the lot of course)

California cities looking like third world ghettos is just propaganda. I've lived here most of my life and have rarely encountered anything like a third world ghetto in California cities. Yes, the big cities have some bad areas, but so do cities like London and Paris.

As do many other big cities. I never want to live in a city anymore. Way to many people and noise. Though nature can be noisy too  Birds can be very loud, but over here there are lots of moments of almost complete silence. Lovely.

The weather is nice--no snow in the winter, but in the winter you can go skiing in the mountains in the morning and surfing in the Pacific in the afternoon. We have more national parks than any other state, including Yosemite, Death Valley, Redwood, Sequoia, and King's Canyon.

Many years back we visited some of those national parks and very nice indeed. No idea about their state now, with climate change and rise of tourism.

But there is also that big crack underneath the ground that hangs like a sword of Damocles above the region. What are the risks in the foreseeable future with that one.

And not to forget the drought and the forest fires that seem to rampart the region. This seems to be a risk in lots of countries now a days. Might not be to big of a problem when living in a bigger city though.

[Siwastaja]

The UK is now so irrelevant to electronics that most of the component vendors who used to have substantial local sales operations in the UK now work through a tiny representative office, or the distributors.

Yes I figured that from one past forum user.

Shh, saying it out loud is a conspiracy theory which might get you banned.

[jfiresto]

   If you can, try to view the movie,
 'OFFICE SPACE'.
   That movie, at least the first 1/3 of it, attempts to capture (your) life, in a hypothetical 1987 tech start-up.   Exploring many myths, but they do capture some essential 'looks', with the concrete 'tilt-up' construction and half-partitions....

Was there a remake about a decade later? In the "Office Space" I saw, directed by Mike Judge, the guys were busy fixing bank software for the year 2000 problem, a problem some were probably still creating in 1987.

Did Mr. Gibbons remember to put the new cover sheet on his last TPS report?

[Zero999]

I really don't think the UK is that bad.

Every country has its problems, the biggest issues for the UK right now are the crumbling social safety net and social services like healthcare, public works, etc...  It is not a great situation.  Hopefully it will improve, but it will be a long way to go before it is back like it was in the mid 2000s, where politicians were being moaned at that GP appointments were offered too promptly.

What makes you think it'll get any better? I hate to get political, but we really haven't had a propper change of government. It's just an illusion: same crappy policies, just different branding.

Thanks to a new absurdly stupid Quebec law coming on the books, not only have I been thinking of starting up a new company in San Fransisco area, but to also move part of my extended family/relatives and offer them work.

(Warning if you are thinking about vacationing in Quebec, it is with a sad heart that I would have to say after this summer, cancel all plans for your safety unless everyone in your party is fluent in French.)

  What's going on in Quebec now?  I lived just south of the border in the late 1970s and made a few trips into Canada and all of the French Canadians went out of their way to be rude if you didn't speak French.  I lived and worked in Saint Jean sur Richelieu, Quebec in the mid 1980s and they were still rude but once I made friends with a few of them, the rest of them accepted me. That said, I never felt unsafe, which is more than I can say about some places in the US that's been to. I later worked with Spar Aerospace in Toronto and I made several trips up there and I have to say that that was a very nice area but I don't know what the cost of living was like there.

     Quebec's new health-care language directive makes it illegal for hospitals to converse with you in any language other than French.  As an English only speaker living here in Quebec, if I were to get into an auto accident, and brought to a hospital, their staff will be legally prohibited from talking to me in English.  And I will not be able to understand anything if I might be asked to sign any paperwork as everything will now be uni-lingual French.

How much does it cost to hire an interpreter or why not learn French? I had a similar issue when I was on holiday in France, in the late 90s, but fortunately my rusty French was enough to get  by.

I think they should do that in the UK, but only allow English and prehaps Welsh. That would certainly cut down on health tourism and save the NHS money on hiring interpreters for those who don't speak English.

I'm a fairly recent Electronics grad working for a big research centre designing custom instruments and sensors; great job, but my wife and I are looking hard at leaving the UK in the next few years but not sure where.
The wife is American - so that's an option - and Germany looks like there's plenty of choice in Engineering and might be better to live than the States, but beyond that I've no idea.

Has anyone who upped and left got any advice or any regrets?

Why? I know this counry is in decline, but the same could be said about much of the West. It's just the UK is going downhill faster at the moment.

Perhaps you should stay in the hope to salvage things.

[tom66]

much of San Francisco is also very bad.

Again, propaganda. I live a 25-minute drive from SF and spend a lot of time there. Yes, the Tenderloin neighborhood is skudgy, but most of the rest is not. It's pretty much like most other cities. I love London, but wouldn't want to spend time in Brixton after dark, for example. Ditto for some parts of Paris.

Brixton is pretty gentrified now. Mostly full of clubbers and ravers at night in the centre.  I'd not want to hang around there just because of how busy it is (I don't like busy places), but it's reasonably safe if you keep your wits about you.

The real troubling areas are those undergoing that gentrification process... Bow, Dagenham, Hackney are dodgy day and night.  And I wouldn't recommend walking through as a lone woman in any area of London at night.

I really don't think the UK is that bad.

Every country has its problems, the biggest issues for the UK right now are the crumbling social safety net and social services like healthcare, public works, etc...  It is not a great situation.  Hopefully it will improve, but it will be a long way to go before it is back like it was in the mid 2000s, where politicians were being moaned at that GP appointments were offered too promptly.

What makes you think it'll get any better? I hate to get political, but we really haven't had a propper change of government. It's just an illusion: same crappy policies, just different branding.

I think that instead of outright, almost ideological incompetence (e.g. Rwanda policy = £0.5bn for six guys to leave, five voluntarily on a pre-existing scheme, lol) we have the adults back in charge.  Yes, the Lab government are going to be limited to what they can change, but I think suggesting they can change nothing about the UK is wrong. 

[coppice]

I really don't think the UK is that bad.

Every country has its problems, the biggest issues for the UK right now are the crumbling social safety net and social services like healthcare, public works, etc...  It is not a great situation.  Hopefully it will improve, but it will be a long way to go before it is back like it was in the mid 2000s, where politicians were being moaned at that GP appointments were offered too promptly.

What makes you think it'll get any better? I hate to get political, but we really haven't had a propper change of government. It's just an illusion: same crappy policies, just different branding.

People act like those things exist in isolation. They actually ride on the surpluses the economy is generating. Britain has no plan at all for getting its economy pumping at a pace needed to generate the money to pay for all these services. Services like the NHS are bloated with massive amounts of admin staff, and could be cleaned up a lot, but you can't finance social services unless you generate a lot of cash.

[Zero999]

I really don't think the UK is that bad.

Every country has its problems, the biggest issues for the UK right now are the crumbling social safety net and social services like healthcare, public works, etc...  It is not a great situation.  Hopefully it will improve, but it will be a long way to go before it is back like it was in the mid 2000s, where politicians were being moaned at that GP appointments were offered too promptly.

What makes you think it'll get any better? I hate to get political, but we really haven't had a propper change of government. It's just an illusion: same crappy policies, just different branding.

I think that instead of outright, almost ideological incompetence (e.g. Rwanda policy = £0.5bn for six guys to leave, five voluntarily on a pre-existing scheme, lol) we have the adults back in charge.  Yes, the Lab government are going to be limited to what they can change, but I think suggesting they can change nothing about the UK is wrong.

I agree with your criticsms of the previous government, but you're very naive (perhaps you're too young to remember Blair) if you think this new one is any better.   And that adults back in charge comment is priceless. Have you heard of some of the silly things they've said? They're no more grown up, then the previous clowns. 

I could write a long post about why Labour are no different, but there's no point, since this not the place. All I'll say is the Uniparty have won again. More chaos and corruption will prevale.

I really don't think the UK is that bad.

Every country has its problems, the biggest issues for the UK right now are the crumbling social safety net and social services like healthcare, public works, etc...  It is not a great situation.  Hopefully it will improve, but it will be a long way to go before it is back like it was in the mid 2000s, where politicians were being moaned at that GP appointments were offered too promptly.

What makes you think it'll get any better? I hate to get political, but we really haven't had a propper change of government. It's just an illusion: same crappy policies, just different branding.

People act like those things exist in isolation. They actually ride on the surpluses the economy is generating. Britain has no plan at all for getting its economy pumping at a pace needed to generate the money to pay for all these services. Services like the NHS are bloated with massive amounts of admin staff, and could be cleaned up a lot, but you can't finance social services unless you generate a lot of cash.

Yes and to cap it off, the mainstream media all push pro-NHS propaganda, like it's the best system in the world. No government can do anything to improve it, or else.

[tggzzz]

I really don't think the UK is that bad.

Every country has its problems, the biggest issues for the UK right now are the crumbling social safety net and social services like healthcare, public works, etc...  It is not a great situation.  Hopefully it will improve, but it will be a long way to go before it is back like it was in the mid 2000s, where politicians were being moaned at that GP appointments were offered too promptly.

What makes you think it'll get any better? I hate to get political, but we really haven't had a propper change of government. It's just an illusion: same crappy policies, just different branding.

I think that instead of outright, almost ideological incompetence (e.g. Rwanda policy = £0.5bn for six guys to leave, five voluntarily on a pre-existing scheme, lol) we have the adults back in charge.  Yes, the Lab government are going to be limited to what they can change, but I think suggesting they can change nothing about the UK is wrong.

I agree with your criticsms of the previous government, but you're very naive (perhaps you're too young to remember Blair) if you think this new one is any better.   And that adults back in charge comment is priceless. Have you heard of some of the silly things they've said? They're no more grown up, then the previous clowns. 

I could write a long post about why Labour are no different, but there's no point, since this not the place. All I'll say is the Uniparty have won again. More chaos and corruption will prevale.

Since we are discussing POLITICS, I'll note all the alternatives are worse. Welcome to the Weimar Republic MkII.

Now, lest we fill the void left by Faringdon/Treez, can we get back to electronics and related topics, please.

Pretty please.

[brucehoult]

As do many other big cities. I never want to live in a city anymore. Way to many people and noise. Though nature can be noisy too  Birds can be very loud, but over here there are lots of moments of almost complete silence. Lovely.

2015-2018 I was living in fairly central Moscow (500m from the "3rd Ring Road", which has 5 lanes in each direction), then 2019 in San Francisco (or at least Fremont).

Now I live in the Far North of New Zealand, on a narrow strip of land between two dairy farms. I can not see any other houses. Other than bords or the farmer cruising past occasionally on his tractor or quad bike, the only sound I usually hear external to the house is flights from Auckland to Tokyo, Seoul, Beijing, or Taipei climbing out at 30,000 or 32,000 feet as they pass overhead (just about to initial cruise altitude) 175 km from Auckland airport.

It's got to be pretty quiet to hear those.

[coppice]

I think that instead of outright, almost ideological incompetence (e.g. Rwanda policy = £0.5bn for six guys to leave, five voluntarily on a pre-existing scheme, lol) we have the adults back in charge.  Yes, the Lab government are going to be limited to what they can change, but I think suggesting they can change nothing about the UK is wrong.

Did you miss the most important documentaries in UK political history - Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minister. To this day ex-ministers reference those as an accurate depiction of government. It doesn't matter who you vote for, the government (i.e. civil service) gets in. The elected are puppets to draw attention away from real power. Why do you think countries like the US and UK end up with two leading parties that make very different noises, but end up doing roughly the same thing?