Thinking about leaving the UK

[BrianHG]

Thanks to a new absurdly stupid Quebec law coming on the books, not only have I been thinking of starting up a new company in San Fransisco area, but to also move part of my extended family/relatives and offer them work.

(Warning if you are thinking about vacationing in Quebec, it is with a sad heart that I would have to say after this summer, cancel all plans for your safety unless everyone in your party is fluent in French.)

  What's going on in Quebec now?  I lived just south of the border in the late 1970s and made a few trips into Canada and all of the French Canadians went out of their way to be rude if you didn't speak French.  I lived and worked in Saint Jean sur Richelieu, Quebec in the mid 1980s and they were still rude but once I made friends with a few of them, the rest of them accepted me. That said, I never felt unsafe, which is more than I can say about some places in the US that's been to. I later worked with Spar Aerospace in Toronto and I made several trips up there and I have to say that that was a very nice area but I don't know what the cost of living was like there.

     Quebec's new health-care language directive makes it illegal for hospitals to converse with you in any language other than French.  As an English only speaker living here in Quebec, if I were to get into an auto accident, and brought to a hospital, their staff will be legally prohibited from talking to me in English.  And I will not be able to understand anything if I might be asked to sign any paperwork as everything will now be uni-lingual French.

The health ministry produced the directive in response to the adoption two years ago of Bill 96, the Coalition Avenir Québec government’s overhaul of the Charter of the French Language. Bill 96 requires that all government workers, including those in hospitals and nursing homes, use French “systematically” in written and oral communications with their clients, with certain exceptions, like emergencies.

     Our government is now asking our healthcare workers to decide on the dot what legally constitutes an emergency in the eyes of the government, otherwise if they make a mistake, the language police will get you...  Next, what happens when said immediate emergency ends and you need basic care to get back on your feet?

     For a province which heavily relies on foreign tourism for a good chunk of their revenue, we have stupid politicians making stupid decisions further alienating us from the rest of the world.  It's time to leave.

[coppice]

What's the deal with UK EE jobs?   What caused that market to suck now?

The UK gave up, and chose to join the third world. Its a work in progress. Its not fuily there yet.

[coppice]

Have you Considered Asia?

CN, VN or Singapore perhaps?

China is a marmite choice. You'll love it or hate it. You don't find many western engineers working there, or even people like me who have spent a lot of time working there without living there (I lived in HK). There are quite a few East Europeans working in MNCs, though, who seem content with their situation. Maybe less so recently, with China's less welcoming attitude to high skilled foreigners.

Vietnam is limiting. There is a lot of assembly activity there now, assembling kits from Shenzhen, Japan, Korea and elsewhere. All the interesting stuff is done outside Vietnam. There is still a very limited amount of serious local engineering, despite the country having a pretty well educated workforce. Also, over the last 40 years the government keeps changing direction, with a huge impact on foreign people and businesses.

Singapore went from a great place for an engineer, to a terrible place as jobs moved to China, to a more stable place now. The government pumped a lot of money into R&D, distorting things, and maybe making them look better than a sustainable position in engineering might be. Nice place to live, though. Lots of foreigners who have spent years in Asia renting a home, seem to buy soon after they start working in Singapore.

Hong Kong was once a great choice, but makes no sense for an engineer today.

India has so many educated locals, its rare to see a foreigner working there, unless they are part of the management team of an MNC.

Thailand has had its appeal, but I haven't met any foreign engineers working there for a long time.

Korea seems to pull in quite a few western academics, but I don't see foreign engineers there beyond a few Chinese.

Japan is interesting. I've known western engineers working there, but more because they married a local woman, and settled with her, than direct career opportunities. Lots of people love the place. If you can't read and write, forget it.

[Zucca]

Italy!

No money, no moderb infrastructure, tons of slow no sense bureaucracy, many other problem... crime.
but you can live land eat ike a king with low money, especially in the South!

[bd139]

What's the deal with UK EE jobs?   What caused that market to suck now?

We're all doing software because it pays the bills.

[tggzzz]

What's the deal with UK EE jobs?   What caused that market to suck now?

We're all doing software because it pays the bills.

... and returning to our first love (hardware) when we retire.

There's a very larger overlap between hardware and software in the industrial and embedded world. By that I mean many (but not all) functions can be implemented in either hardware or software.

Consequently partitioning is a key skill, and one that seems to be little understood. In particular, HR-droids pigeon hole human resources into hardware exclusive-or software.

[Siwastaja]

Scandinavia is possibly a good option, and yes, English is no problem there. Which is a good thing, because their local languages are not easy to learn IMO.

Yeah - one good thing here is that we are quite flexible in changing our office language to some sort of rally English when the first non-Finnish speaker pops up. This is probably because even we are ashamed of our English accent, we would be even more ashamed of not even trying, and leaving them out of the loop.

Otherwise than that, for Scandinavia, maybe prefer our Western neighbors; Finland is in quite a technological and economic decline. This doesn't mean here isn't anything, but expect to look for uncertain and possibly poorly paying startups instead of steady high-tech engineering jobs of the past (Nokia days). Unless you happen to find something specific which matches with your specific skill set, of course, but this pretty much applies everywhere.

[coppice]

Yeah - one good thing here is that we are quite flexible in changing our office language to some sort of rally English when the first non-Finnish speaker pops up. This is probably because even we are ashamed of our English accent, we would be even more ashamed of not even trying, and leaving them out of the loop.

Why would you be ashamed of an accent? You are expected to speak someone else's language with an accent. The average well educated Dutch or German speaks English with a fairly thick accent, but they speak it to a high standard and nobody cares about the accent...... at least not until it makes them say something that sounds funny to a native English speaker.

[os40la]

I'm not sure going from the UK to the US would be an improvement 

Not necessary. We (USA) do have some things that may be attractive. We drive on the correct side of the road, still use the imperial system to honor British history. The BBQ is world class. 

[BrianHG]

The BBQ is world class. 

As I am well aware my waist line will become world class is I am not super careful.
Seriously, if you are not from the USA and move to the USA and you do not know what you are doing, the first thing that will increase is your waistline / weight.

[nctnico]

Have you Considered Asia?

CN, VN or Singapore perhaps?

You can add Taiwan to the list.

[coppice]

Have you Considered Asia?

CN, VN or Singapore perhaps?

You can add Taiwan to the list.

Oh, I missed that one. Just 20 years ago I still heard western engineers living in Taiwan use terms like "the shit hole of Asia" to describe the place. I was travelling to Taiwan for short visits at that time, and it seemed a pretty nice place. I guess its about 10 years since I last went there, and it seemed like a nice place to be. I'm not sure what opportunity there is there for foreign engineers. They have lots of good people of their own, often the ones who are now the leaders in their fields. The foreign engineers I have met there have been employees of MNCs, stationed there by the parent company.

I wonder how much recent sabre rattling has really affected things in Taiwan?

[themadhippy]

 

We (USA) do have some things that may be attractive. We drive on the correct side of the road,

No you dont

still use the imperial system to honor British history.

Only cause yer too stupid /lazy to  deal with metric

The BBQ is world class

Youve not been to a south african  braai then

[coppice]

We (USA) do have some things that may be attractive. We drive on the correct side of the road,

No you dont

I'm not sure about that any more. For many years I thought the UK had the right idea. I keep my right hand on the steering wheel all the time, while I poke around at the gears and other controls with my less capable hand. Sounds right for a mostly right handed society. Now it seems to have flipped. I an trying to fiddle with small controls and screens with my left hand, which is a lot harder to do than using my right hand. Maybe the Americans planned a century ahead.

[os40la]

We (USA) do have some things that may be attractive. We drive on the correct side of the road,

No you dont

still use the imperial system to honor British history.

Only cause yer too stupid /lazy to  deal with metric

The BBQ is world class

Youve not been to a south african  braai then

I hope you took it that was just joking with my comment. It was meant to bust on us in the USA.    I think you have because you replied with what I was actually saying.
I have not been to South Africa, I can only assume what you said was true, no argument here. Have you tried BBQ in Korea or any other Asian country? They are also world class in my book as well. I’m scared to try Australian if fear of ruining my love of the BBQ here. 

[tggzzz]

We (USA) do have some things that may be attractive. We still use the imperial system to honor British history.

Nah. You short-change people.

How many pounds are there in a hundredweight or ton, and litres in a gallon?

[IanB]

We (USA) do have some things that may be attractive. We still use the imperial system to honor British history.

Nah. You short-change people.

How many pounds are there in a hundredweight or ton, and litres in a gallon?

A slightly more subtle one: how many fluid ounces are there in a fluid ounce?

[coppice]

We (USA) do have some things that may be attractive. We still use the imperial system to honor British history.

Nah. You short-change people.

How many pounds are there in a hundredweight or ton, and litres in a gallon?

A slightly more subtle one: how many fluid ounces are there in a fluid ounce?

Or what is the ratio between one ton in the US, and another ton in the US.

[CatalinaWOW]

It is certainly interesting to hear "too stupid and lazy" to change to the simpler system.  While there are elements of truth to the statement, it is probably close to the ultimate self contradictory argument.  Think of the inverse.  The English system is too complex for stupid and lazy people to use.

On the original topic, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.  I have multiple friends and relatives who have emigrated from here in the US to the UK because it is "better" there.  Your personal situation in the UK has to be so bad that another location will overcome all of the disruption of a move.  And wherever you move there will be drawbacks.  You are the only one that can put a weight on those drawbacks, and it is guaranteed that there will be some that you don't foresee.

Coppice's comment about people in a new location being about like those where you came from has a core truth.  Yes people are different the world over, but some individuals adapt readily to change and can fit in almost anywhere, others not so much.  Know yourself (and your family) before you commit to any change.

[os40la]

We (USA) do have some things that may be attractive. We still use the imperial system to honor British history.

Nah. You short-change people.

How many pounds are there in a hundredweight or ton, and litres in a gallon?

A slightly more subtle one: how many fluid ounces are there in a fluid ounce?

Or what is the ratio between one ton in the US, and another ton in the US.

Probably my weight if I keep eating BBQ. around 93kg?

[os40la]

On the original topic, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.  I have multiple friends and relatives who have emigrated from here in the US to the UK because it is "better" there.  Your personal situation in the UK has to be so bad that another location will overcome all of the disruption of a move.  And wherever you move there will be drawbacks.  You are the only one that can put a weight on those drawbacks, and it is guaranteed that there will be some that you don't foresee.

Coppice's comment about people in a new location being about like those where you came from has a core truth.  Yes people are different the world over, but some individuals adapt readily to change and can fit in almost anywhere, others not so much.  Know yourself (and your family) before you commit to any change.

I agree. Every place will have it pluses and minuses. Even moving within the same Country can be challenging. Like others have said, You really need to factor in any Language barrier you may have.

[Siwastaja]

Yeah - one good thing here is that we are quite flexible in changing our office language to some sort of rally English when the first non-Finnish speaker pops up. This is probably because even we are ashamed of our English accent, we would be even more ashamed of not even trying, and leaving them out of the loop.

Why would you be ashamed of an accent?

There is no rational reason, it's a cultural thing of being ashamed about the assumed perception by others. Some kind of "we are from small country and need to represent ourselves well in the eyes of the wide world". The result of this is often much more awkward than just being relaxed.

[coppice]

Coppice's comment about people in a new location being about like those where you came from has a core truth.  Yes people are different the world over, but some individuals adapt readily to change and can fit in almost anywhere, others not so much.  Know yourself (and your family) before you commit to any change.

That wasn't my comment. I think its wrong. We are all biologically the same, but culture shapes people in different places very differently.

[TimFox]

I'm not sure going from the UK to the US would be an improvement 

Not necessary. We (USA) do have some things that may be attractive. We drive on the correct side of the road, still use the imperial system to honor British history. The BBQ is world class. 

No, we use “conventional units”, not “imperial” units.
The most important difference between them is the US gallon vs. the imperial gallon (and the corresponding pints).

[coppice]

I'm not sure going from the UK to the US would be an improvement 

Not necessary. We (USA) do have some things that may be attractive. We drive on the correct side of the road, still use the imperial system to honor British history. The BBQ is world class. 

No, we use “conventional units”, not “imperial” units.
The most important difference between them is the US gallon vs. the imperial gallon (and the corresponding pints).

I thought the US used "Tyrant King George III With US Characteristics" units.