Thinking about leaving the UK

[deadly_penguin]

I'm a fairly recent Electronics grad working for a big research centre designing custom instruments and sensors; great job, but my wife and I are looking hard at leaving the UK in the next few years but not sure where.
The wife is American - so that's an option - and Germany looks like there's plenty of choice in Engineering and might be better to live than the States, but beyond that I've no idea.

Has anyone who upped and left got any advice or any regrets?

[Andy Watson]

My regret is not leaving when I had the chance(s).

[Benta]

Look towards the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden) and the Netherlands.
An issue you shouldn't overlook is the language barrier, and in all the above English is no problem at all.
Germany, Austria, Switzerland are a bit more difficult. In electronics it's no big deal, but everyday life will be a challenge.
For South Europe, you'll certainly need to learn the local language before even going there.

Good Luck.

[nctnico]

Look towards the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden) and the Netherlands.
An issue you shouldn't overlook is the language barrier, and in all the above English is no problem at all.
Germany, Austria, Switzerland are a bit more difficult. In electronics it's no big deal, but everyday life will be a challenge.
For South Europe, you'll certainly need to learn the local language before even going there.

I second this. You could add Belgium to the list but only the Dutch speaking part.

In any other country, you will have to learn the local language. In Germany, France and Italy you won't get far using English for an engineering job either. In France the people working at the work permit office for foreigners don't speak any other language than French. Odd but true.

[coppice]

I'm a fairly recent Electronics grad working for a big research centre designing custom instruments and sensors; great job, but my wife and I are looking hard at leaving the UK in the next few years but not sure where.
The wife is American - so that's an option - and Germany looks like there's plenty of choice in Engineering and might be better to live than the States, but beyond that I've no idea.

Well, of course you are thinking of leaving the UK with your engineering degree. Why would anyone in the UK get an engineering degree. especially electronics, if its not to find employment abroad?

I know a lot of people who went to the US and stayed. I also know a number who went to the US childless, but when they had children, and those children approached school age, they reconsidered and moved back to the UK. That was a long time ago. Maybe they would be less likely to return today. If you have contacts somewhere with good engineering prospects make use of that. It can be hard settling in a new place, but contacts help enormously. If you have skills people are falling over backwards to get, you may get great support from a potential employer. If you have more generic skills maybe you will have to figure all the local stuff yourself. That can be hard, especially if there are any language barriers. Its amazing how far speaking English will take you in a work environment, but outside work local languages can be really important, especially when interacting with officialdom.

If your wife is American, can family there help you? US companies have a reputation for poor benefits (e.g. short holidays), but one area they can be very good is helping people settle in and get productive quickly. Germany has been a good choice, but their industries seem to be having a rough time at the moment.

Has anyone who upped and left got any advice or any regrets?

If you roam the world you will find quite a cohort of engineers who left the UK. You certainly won't be alone in doing this. Most people don't return to the UK unless something goes horribly wrong, although I think quite a few, like me, return for retirement. Despite some ups and downs, going abroad for life and work was the best thing I ever did.

[jonovid]

if heading for Australia your probably 50ys too late, as Sydney & Melbourne are getting overcrowded too.
but if your prepared to go bush, life can be comfortably affordable. just avoid buying property near national parks that are the high fire risk areas.
or low-lying country on the banks of a river that are the floodplains.

[jonpaul]

Relocate: Germany....High energy cost, bad transport, most DE firms have fled to Hungary, Romainia, etc.

USA: Depends on the state, TX good, CA , NY, bad.

Switzerland has any advantages and a strong electronics/tech industry but very high cost of living.

j

[SiliconWizard]

From what I am seeing, Switzerland is on the verge of declining - may be not obvious yet, but it's already not what it used to be. Still, a strong industry in high-tech areas, if you have the skills.

Scandinavia is possibly a good option, and yes, English is no problem there. Which is a good thing, because their local languages are not easy to learn IMO. The cost of living tends to be very high, but salaries are proportional. Just make sure you negotiate your salary according to the local context, and not according to your own references from your home country.

[IanB]

USA: Depends on the state, TX good, CA , NY, bad.

California has high living costs, but the quality of life can be good, and compensates.

Just make sure you negotiate your salary according to the local context, and not according to your own references from your home country.

This for sure. Do plenty of research.

[Stray Electron]

  I would think that Canada or Australia or any of the other former UK countries would be a natural choice for you. I really don't know about Australia but I know that Canada has a lot of high tech electronics industries. 

  What part of the States is your wife from and is she wanting to get back there? 

  Two out of my three cousins in England left and went to Australia and Scotland and they have no regrets.

[BrianHG]

USA: Depends on the state, TX good, CA , NY, bad.

California has high living costs, but the quality of life can be good, and compensates.

Yes, when moving to the USA, your expected income will be a big factor regarding where you can live in comfort.

[Stray Electron]

USA: Depends on the state, TX good, CA , NY, bad.

California has high living costs, but the quality of life can be good, and compensates.

Yes, when moving to the USA, your expected income will be a big factor regarding where you can live in comfort.

   Yes, definitely avoid California and aim for some place like Florida or Texas where the economy is booming and the cities don't look like a third world ghetto.

[brucehoult]

Has anyone who upped and left got any advice or any regrets?

I'm from New Zealand, not the UK, and in fact have somehow never been there despite 3/4 of my ancestors coming from the UK in the late 19th century (my maternal grandfather had a Danish mother and Swedish father).

I've worked for a company in Russia for over four years, including three years living there. I was the only foreigner in the company, but everyone had good written English, and 90%+ were good with conversations too. I only needed Russian language for shops and supermarkets (mostly for reading product labels, only a couple of phrases at checkout e.g. recognising "Do you need a bag?" and answering appropriately) and McD etc (same ... "For here or to go?"), taxis, restaurants, signs on the street and in the metro (entry, exit, transfer ...). Perhaps more importantly, they *like* English-speaking people (even if their government doesn't).

Ukraine is similar, in fact even easier for English-speaking people, something close to my experiences in Sweden maybe, but not quite Denmark. Much easier than Germany or Austria or Switzerland or .. eek .. France  And Kyiv, Odesa, Kharkiv are not Moscow, but they're all amazing very pleasant and advanced cities.

Or were, before the current unfortunate situation.

Once the war is over, Ukraine (almost anywhere) will very quickly be a great place to be. And Moscow and St Petersburg too.

They will both (sadly...) have a big shortage of men. And not only in terms of skilled workers, if you know what I mean.

In terms of lifestyle, New Zealand and Australia are both great. The thing about NZ is ... it really would be a lot better if you can bring your work with you. Remote work for US or European companies (as I'm doing now) is a lot easier to arrange now than it was before COVID, and a California salary while living in uncrowded, quiet New Zealand is the best of both worlds.

I hated living in California (SFBA). It's just awful. There are beautiful places but the traffic is awful, the car pakrs are all full, and the trails and beaches etc crowded as hell. The medical system and insurance is a nightmare, and anything to do with cars (DMV, insurance, ...) is almost as bad. The only thing I really liked there was the after work public lectures by famous guests at places like Google and Facebook and Stanford, and being able to drop in to just the conference sessions you were interested in at Moscone or San Jose Convention Center etc rather than having to get international flights and hotels and dedicate a whole week.

[tggzzz]

With problems such as the OP's, correct answers are easy to find. But it is much more important to find the correct questions. By that I mean the questions where the answers push the decision in this direction or that direction.

In that vein, perhaps ways of finding the important questions are:

• in books about becoming an expat, or
• differences encountered when someone moved to the UK, often found in decent newspapers/magazines
• visiting a likely place, and doing a few everyday things there - i.e. not tourist things
• working out what you want to move to, rather than what you are moving away from

And after all that, remember the old anecdote...

Man goes into a shop and says "I'm thinking of moving here; what are people like?". Shopkeeper responds "What are people like where you come from?". "Oh pretty friendly and helpful". And the shopkeeper notes "Yup, they are like that here".
A week later another man goes into the same shop and says "I'm thinking of moving here; what are people like?". Shopkeeper responds "What are people like where you come from?". "Oh a bit stand-offish, mean and snobbish". And the shopkeeper notes "Yup, they are like that here".

In other words, "people are people, the whole world over", and "you can escape from anything except yourself".

[nctnico]

In other words, "people are people, the whole world over", and "you can escape from anything except yourself".

Wrong. Having travelled quite a bit myself I can definitely say that people are culturally different and hence more open / helpfull compared to others depending on location. This will be different between areas in countries as well. I know several people who moved about 100km inside the Netherlands because they couldn't get along with the locals in an area and felt right at home 100km away. Ofcourse, the reverse can also be true. Either way it is important to figure out if you can get along with the locals if you want to move to a different place.

[Messtechniker]

To start with, get yourself a good mobile with a good translator
for the target language.

[pcprogrammer]

They will both (sadly...) have a big shortage of men. And not only in terms of skilled workers, if you know what I mean.

The OP mentioned his wife, so not a good selling point?

A bit of a problem with wanting to move elsewhere because of some dislikes to the place you are, is the availability of suitable work. Working remotely won't always be possible and when an office visit is needed it becomes more expensive and troublesome when you live in the sticks.

I'm originally from Den Haag (The Hague) and moved with my parents to Zoetermeer which is a commuting city near The Hague and after that moved to Delft which was nice in the beginning but after so many years parking your car(s) became a nightmare. The we moved a bit further south to a newly build housing estate near Rotterdam, basically because the work was there. Had my own one man business by then. Hated the place due to noisy neighbors and when the opportunity came up we moved even further south to a small village near Roermond. Was also nice for so many years, but got crowded more and more. Now that we don't work anymore we live in a small village in rural France and it is tranquil, but for someone in electronics not a lot of opportunities around.

Moving to the Netherlands to get away from England might become a disappointment when looking for better living circumstances. Don't think it will be that different from living in the UK. But it is a country where English is spoken by most of the people, and I can state that this is very different in France, at least in the part where we live. Few that speak English even though it is a mandatory subject at school.

We have been to country side Sweden for a holiday, and I have to say that not to many people spoke English down there. But it may differ in the cities and less rural places.

[tggzzz]

In other words, "people are people, the whole world over", and "you can escape from anything except yourself".

Wrong. Having travelled quite a bit myself I can definitely say that people are culturally different and hence more open / helpfull compared to others depending on location. This will be different between areas in countries as well. I know several people who moved about 100km inside the Netherlands because they couldn't get along with the locals in an area and felt right at home 100km away. Ofcourse, the reverse can also be true. Either way it is important to figure out if you can get along with the locals if you want to move to a different place.

In topics like this, for every example there will be a counterexample. Recursively. Ad infinitum. World without end.

It is up to the OP to determine which are the important concepts and questions, not you or me.

[tooki]

An issue you shouldn't overlook is the language barrier, and in all the above English is no problem at all.
Germany, Austria, Switzerland are a bit more difficult. In electronics it's no big deal, but everyday life will be a challenge.

In the past much more so than now, at least for Switzerland. Here in Zurich, 30 years ago you never heard English out on the street. (As a native English speaker, it was rare and memorable to hear English back then.) Now it’s a literally everyday occurrence. More and more companies let you correspond with them in English (like health insurance, telecom, etc). I’m not saying that learning German isn’t a huge advantage, just that you can get by with English far better now than in the past.

From what I am seeing, Switzerland is on the verge of declining - may be not obvious yet, but it's already not what it used to be. Still, a strong industry in high-tech areas, if you have the skills.

There are ample signs of the decline because it happened long ago, it’s nothing new. If anything, and this is the surprising part, is that it actually appears to be on the rise. There is very strong demand for electronics technicians and engineers right now.

Switzerland has any advantages and a strong electronics/tech industry but very high cost of living.

Cost of living here is high, but inflation has been low. The cost of living in desirable parts of USA, for example, has largely caught up with here!!  (The last few times I’ve been back to USA to visit I’ve been absolutely shocked at how expensive things have gotten there.)

And of course Swiss wages more than make up for cost of living, and the quality of life is excellent.


However, as non-EU citizens, you will need patience to get into Switzerland, because CH and EU citizens must be given priority over “third country” nationals in jobs. There’s a quota on third country work permits, and they run out quickly. You’ll need to get a company to sponsor you. It can be a lot easier to do an international transfer within a company (e.g. work for them in another country first).

(Pre-Brexit this would have been a simple affair for you, as you then had the legal right to move here and bring your spouse.)

[brucehoult]

They will both (sadly...) have a big shortage of men. And not only in terms of skilled workers, if you know what I mean.

The OP mentioned his wife, so not a good selling point?

Possibly OP is not the only person thinking of such a move?

We have been to country side Sweden for a holiday, and I have to say that not to many people spoke English down there. But it may differ in the cities and less rural places.

I was mostly in the south, Malmo (which is where one of my great-grandfathers was from) and Helsingborg, in 2009 and 2017. I found that if a shop had 2 or 3 people working there then probably one would speak English. Or any teenager.

[jonpaul]

99% of Swiss in German zone are fluent in English.

Less so in French area (Geneva) and even less in Italian ..Tessiono.

Very hard to get Swiss residence.

Jon

[tszaboo]

In other words, "people are people, the whole world over", and "you can escape from anything except yourself".

Wrong. Having travelled quite a bit myself I can definitely say that people are culturally different and hence more open / helpfull compared to others depending on location. This will be different between areas in countries as well. I know several people who moved about 100km inside the Netherlands because they couldn't get along with the locals in an area and felt right at home 100km away. Ofcourse, the reverse can also be true. Either way it is important to figure out if you can get along with the locals if you want to move to a different place.

It's kind of both. I've lived in 3 countries and worked in 4. It's amazing how much difference you get just by moving 100km. For example just across the border in Belgium, a road construction will last a month, a year or forever. Here they write on the construction the date and hour when it ends. They speak the same* language, houses look the same, people look the same. But when you arrive at 16:45 into a shop and the seller look at you like you are about to commit murder, because the shop closes at 17:00. And the country is  forcing you to do all your groceries on Saturday because nothing is open during weekdays.
Here the most issue seems to be housing related, and daycare costs.
Quality of life comes down to being able to get the basic day to day things done. And the fact that you are not even prepared to the curveball a country is able to throw at you. Like you would expect internet without a monthly data cap and it isn't.
You can advice someone to move here because it's honestly good, and then they have 3 children, and cannot afford daycare and forced to live in a tiny apartment paying way too much rent. And eat food that tastes like sawdust mixed with sugar.
Or you move to USA, and then the power goes out for a week and according to the locals that's "normal" while in Europe you are used to having 1 minute power outage every 2 years.
And why both? I think it matters a lot more how are the people you surround yourself with. A company with woke HR or a toxic coworker could as much make your life hell as an upstairs neighbor that has legs made out of lead and likes stomping around every day.

[tom66]

I really don't think the UK is that bad.

Every country has its problems, the biggest issues for the UK right now are the crumbling social safety net and social services like healthcare, public works, etc...  It is not a great situation.  Hopefully it will improve, but it will be a long way to go before it is back like it was in the mid 2000s, where politicians were being moaned at that GP appointments were offered too promptly.

But, for engineering, the UK is still a world leader in many areas, especially in software and electronics.

The US is great in terms of engineering salaries and I can't say I haven't been tempted... But there are lots of problems.  The places where salaries are great are the most crowded and polluted.  Healthcare is pretty bad in some states too, even with private care.  (A friend had to wait 8 weeks for a cancer screening.  It was covered by his insurance no problem, but they just didn't have any appointments for that long.)  There are also much higher rates of violent crime and disorder, and a greater chance of being caught in the crossfire in some cities... I would never live in LA for instance (visiting it was fun, but that's all.)  Also issues with harder drug abuse and homelessness which make the UK seem like it actually cares for homeless people, in comparison.  There is also the non-zero chance of a Trump second term.

I would say the UK is a tale of two nations in many respects, and opportunities in the south of the country, around the London belt, are far better than in other areas.  This is one major disadvantage as the cost of housing is so much higher in these areas due to the concentration of these jobs.  But if you can afford to buy a house in those areas, then it just becomes a part of the cost of living calculus.

[pcprogrammer]

Healthcare and waiting times are becoming more and more problematic everywhere. I have to wait till the end of November to see a rheumatologist about my Fibromyalgia. Physiotherapy also has waiting lists of more then six weeks.

And don't expect it to be better in the Netherlands. There too are problems with finding new medical workers, resulting in lots of work pressure, stress and long waiting lists.

[coppice]

But, for engineering, the UK is still a world leader in many areas, especially in software and electronics.

You need to get out more. The UK is now so irrelevant to electronics that most of the component vendors who used to have substantial local sales operations in the UK now work through a tiny representative office, or the distributors. The UK is still a leader in some areas of engineering. Travel the world and you'll find a lot of UK civil engineers behind some of the most spectacular structures being built. For software, games still seems to be pretty active in the UK. Apart from ARM, who in the UK is really significant in electronics? Even ARM keeps mulling the idea of leaving. In the 90s there were still signs of life. A number of players, like CSR and Virata, popped up and did well globally, but the follow on has been very weak.