Theranos Elizabeth Holmes sold compilers to China?

[MrMobodies]

I was reading a Wikipedia article about Elizabeth Holmes to do with Theranos.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Holmes

Holmes attended St. John's School in Houston.[17] During high school, she was interested in computer programming and claims she started her first business selling C++ compilers to Chinese universities.[18] Her parents had arranged Mandarin Chinese home tutoring, and partway through high school, Holmes began attending Stanford University's summer Mandarin program.[19][11] In 2001, Holmes attended Stanford, where she studied chemical engineering, and worked as a student researcher and laboratory assistant in the School of Engineering.[16]

I find that hard to believe not all because of the recent fraud but it is in China and they seem surrounded by a lot of things so why would they need to buy it from her overseas?

I question is there anything unique about these compilers that the she was selling to the Universities there.

[MK14]

https://medium.com/cs183c-blitzscaling-class-collection/scaling-theranos-with-elizabeth-holmes-class-14-notes-of-stanford-university-s-cs183c-f2029b7c21a0

She seems to be talking about it (see link above) and said:

Question from the audience:
 What was the business in China?

Elizabeth Holmes: This was in my C++ days, I was looking at the fact that universities in China didn’t have access to compilers the way US universities did, so I was distributing compilers to Universities in China.

Did it make a lot of money?
 — No (laughter)

Wild speculation:
Could the business, be helping the Chinese, get around possible US export restrictions, against China, perhaps ?
Or companies that don't like to sell in China.

I.e. Be a sort of grey market or even illegal operation ?

[MK14]

Here is a direct link to her actually talking about it.

https://youtu.be/juhATwufdbc?list=PLnsTB8Q5VgnVzh1S-VMCXiuwJglk5AV--&t=4013

The link should start at around 1 hour and seven minutes, which is what I presume the REAL source of the information is from (as regards the Wiki in the opening post).

[SiliconWizard]

Alright but why would that matter? I know she fucked up, but are we going to endlessly dig up all the details of her past life? Why not try and find something from when she was a kid and stole some candy from her kindergarten buddies? *puzzled*

[MK14]

I have mixed feelings.
Maybe you are right, we shouldn't be discussing this.
On the other hand, it would be interesting to know if she was telling the truth or not, about selling the compilers in China.

find something from when she was a kid and stole some candy from her kindergarten buddies?

Actually, the real life arguing over her, has got much, much worse than that.

Would you believe, they are arguing over her family history, from the 1890's ?

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Elizabeth_Holmes

"The family’s wealth, power and political connections date to the 1890s, when Christian Rasmus Holmes, a Danish immigrant and physician, married Bettie Fleischmann, heiress to the namesake yeast fortune and a Cincinnati socialite with a fondness for Chinese bronzes

Back on topic, the 'Talk' page also discusses her Compiler selling activities.

Selling compilers to Chinese Universities
I highly doubt the veracity of the claim that a teenage Elizabeth Holmes sold C compilers which she wrote to Chinese Universities. At this time I know there were definitely free compilers like GNU which many programmers have and still do use for small projects. I don't know what the state of the Chinese university system was at the time, but I find it highly suspicious that a teenager with limited experience could take up the task of writing on a whim and then to sell it to a non-trivial institution such as a University. Do note that in the article source, there is no mention of the universities to which this compiler was sold nor the process of its design and manufacture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Margielamango (talk • contribs) 19:43, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Neither the source nor this Wikipedia article say she wrote the compilers. She just sold them. I guess she bought them wholesale in the US and sold them in China. It was in the late 1990s or early 2000s, so she may actually have sold boxes with DVDs and books. Or she may have sold licenses that she bought from the developer. Or maybe she had a contract with a company which made compilers and sold them for a premium... Many scenarios that are quite possible. Nothing special.
"free compilers like GNU which many programmers have and still do use for small projects" - Free compilers like GCC have always been used for huge projects, e.g. GNU/Linux, but other compilers may have advantages, e.g. you pretty much need Visual C++ if you want to build Windows programs. There are several other possible reasons why a university may prefer a specific compiler. Nothing suspicious here either. List of compilers#C++ compilers (And by the way, the source (and this article) say she sold C++ compilers, not C compilers. Closely related languages, but also quite different.)
Just to make this clear: I'm not trying to defend Holmes. Given here later history, it's possible she also lied about the compiler business. But so far, there's no good reason to doubt what's reported in a reliable source, and the part about the compilers hasn't been retracted.
P.S.: At least she admitted that her compiler business didn't make much money. Chrisahn (talk) 20:17, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

[I wanted a rude username]

free compilers like GNU ... for small projects.

Seriously though ...

[magic]

I have mixed feelings.
Maybe you are right, we shouldn't be discussing this.
On the other hand, it would be interesting to know if she was telling the truth or not, about selling the compilers in China.

Maybe it would be but you will never know because there are no sources of information besides her
Unless you are willing to go to China to knock on each university's door and ask if anyone remembers her

[tooki]

free compilers like GNU ... for small projects.

Yeah that line made me chuckle, too. "Small projects" like all of Linux, BSD, etc.; macOS and nearly all software on it; and all of iOS (including tvOS, watchOS, etc) and all software running on them. Yeah, just little dinky projects…

[MK14]

I have mixed feelings.
Maybe you are right, we shouldn't be discussing this.
On the other hand, it would be interesting to know if she was telling the truth or not, about selling the compilers in China.

Maybe it would be but you will never know because there are no sources of information besides her
Unless you are willing to go to China to knock on each university's door and ask if anyone remembers her

That is a very good point!

But I still think it can be analysed/verified, to some extent.

If it had been via the UK, there are internet records, where you can look up (limited, i.e. all except extremely small ones) companies, history, including who the directors were and annual financial accounts.

I am at least a little bit suspicious of her 'story' about selling the compilers. But as you are effectively saying, there is too little information, especially from other sources/people. For us to reliably reach accurate/verified conclusions.

tl;dr
It MIGHT be true, but does sound like it may not really be true.

On the other hand, there could be other parties, with real information. Which could end up being put into this thread.

For quite a long time, there have been and are a number of free compilers and some compilers used for microcontrollers, supplied by the manufacturers, are also free. So, a University, anywhere in the world. Shouldn't have any major difficulties getting at least some compilers, even if they had no money/budget.

Not trying to be rude about China or political, here. But some internet people, commenting about this issue, seem to be saying that in China, they might use pirated versions of the software (e.g. windows), anyway. Making her story, even more dubious.

EDIT: As regards free compilers, there are probably hundreds, if not a thousand or more, free ones available.
I have NOT mentioned C++ specifically, because some sources say it was a C compiler.

[MK14]

Thanks, blueskull. That is a very informative post!

That strengthens the idea, that she might not be telling the truth.

For IP products, the laws in China have a mandatory license term, which means if you don't sell to China, we take it anyways.

That, makes me especially suspicious. Because it should mean that the Universities, can just use the software, anyway.

EDIT:
I'm trying to guess what it could have been (if they were telling the truth).
There have been (expensive) advanced Intel C++ compilers. But most people/entities, don't really need it. You only really need it, if you are selling huge amounts of software and need every last cpu cycle of performance. E.g. for the latest games. Or it is being run on thousands of computers (i.e. a powerful cluster super computer).

As regards embedded systems, there are usually free alternatives to paid software. Which are usually perfectly good enough, unless you are doing bigger projects. Which might benefit from better debugging and saving on microcontroller costs, because of more efficient optimisation options.

[donotdespisethesnake]

I am at least a little bit suspicious of her 'story' about selling the compilers.

The word she uses is "distributing". We might assume that running a business implies selling, but that is not the word she used.

Maybe she wrote a web page in Mandarin with a download link to a GCC package, and asked for donations. She also says she didn't make money, maybe because people thought why pay for something I can get for free anyway?

Considering the embellishments people apply on their CV, this does not seem like a big deal. Federico Must claimed to have a PhD from MIT right there on his business card, as well as claiming other degress, that turned out to be lies. He never even attended.

[MK14]

I am at least a little bit suspicious of her 'story' about selling the compilers.

The word she uses is "distributing". We might assume that running a business implies selling, but that is not the word she used.

Maybe she wrote a web page in Mandarin with a download link to a GCC package, and asked for donations. She also says she didn't make money, maybe because people thought why pay for something I can get for free anyway?

Considering the embellishments people apply on their CV, this does not seem like a big deal. Federico Must claimed to have a PhD from MIT right there on his business card, as well as claiming other degress, that turned out to be lies. He never even attended.

That is a very good point.
So, even if she only very slightly "sold" (I like your GCC webpage example) one or more pieces of software. She could technically be telling the truth. But in practice, it is close to lying.

Example:
Someone could write a CV (Résumé), which says they have been an electronics technical author, covering many aspects of electronics. Read by a huge number of people.

Without mentioning, that it was ONLY on EEVBLOG forums, because of their post count of 3 posts.

[donotdespisethesnake]

I don't know about others, but in my career as an engineer I never had to worry too much about liars. Sure, some engineers brag a lot more than their incompetence, but few I recall told outright lies. However, in my forays into the management world, outright lies is more the norm.

I worked for a startup, and the founders' pitch to investors included the phrase "we have patented technology". No only did they not have a single patent grant, they didn't even have any patent applications! To my possibly naive mind, that is basic fraud. I raised concerns with others, but no one else was troubled. "You have to bend the truth a bit to get investment" was the phrase. I guess that serious investors who exercise due diligence are wise to that, and can sniff out "vaporware", because we never did get any venture capital. I got to the point where I just couldn't tell whether what we were doing was a real attempt at business or an investment scam, and I had to quit.

Apparently the saying is "fake it until you make it". That is the equivalent of "lie and hope you don't get found out", which seems to be the basis of a lot of business. On many occasions I came out of meeting asking "Was X true?", with the answer "no, but they don't know that".

It seems obvious that Theranos was a fraud, but actually their business model was normal, and lies on the extreme end of a continuum. Compare with Waterseer, who raised funds for a bogs technology, eventually end up selling repackaged dehumidifiers. Was that a scam, or just over promising to get to a viable business?

[MK14]

I don't know about others, but in my career as an engineer I never had to worry too much about liars. Sure, some engineers brag a lot more than their incompetence, but few I recall told outright lies. However, in my forays into the management world, outright lies is more the norm.

Your experience, sounds fairly typical.

If an engineer, says pin 1 is +12 Volts and pin 2 is 0 volts/ground. But they are lying, and it is the other way round. They wouldn't get very far in engineering, as the devices would probably break, or blow a fuse or something.
So engineers, really need to tell the truth.

I can understand some of the need to be economical with the truth, when managing things.
E.g. If you tell the customer that they can get a much better widget, than you are selling, for half the price, better quality and reliability, from another supplier. Then telling them, would probably lose you business.

It would be like a major supermarket, on its shelves, saying something like ...

Our Flour is £1.99, but Lidl sell a bigger, better tasting bag for only £0.49
Our Sugar is £1.49, but Aldi sell a bigger one, which doesn't clump up in hot water, for only £0.39
Our Vegetables are only £2.49, but Sainsbury's have a special on better tasting ones, for only £0.99

So, absolute truth, is a tricky subject area.

[Mr. Scram]

Alright but why would that matter? I know she fucked up, but are we going to endlessly dig up all the details of her past life? Why not try and find something from when she was a kid and stole some candy from her kindergarten buddies? *puzzled*

People love heroes and villains even if the real world is much more nuanced and complicated. The latter is boring and tiresome.

[MK14]

I think it is all too easy to over think or "engineer", ways in which she was telling the truth.

Thinking about things, in more detail. I can't see how she could have done it as her own business, while at high school (if I understand things, correctly).
Because the organisations which own the original software, wouldn't necessarily accept such a person to be one of their distributors.

Surely she should have said the name of the owner of the C/C++ compiler, such as Intel, Microsoft, etc.

Thinking about this further. I think that the independent C/C++ compilers, where they are sold. Don't have anything like the sales volume to pay for an independent sales entity (distributor). That is why, such things are usually sold, directly by the business (who wrote the compiler), often using internet pages.

tl/dr
If it was very expensive/big, they surely would have refused to deal with her (a high school student).
If it was cheap, it couldn't have the resources to pay for distributors.
So I think the story is sounding increasingly fishy (not 100% truthful).

EDIT:
But, as said by other(s), in this thread. We can never be 100% sure, either way.
It is speculation, rather than innocent until proven guilty in August 2020 (at least one source seems to say, that is when the upcoming trial starts, on considerably more serious matters, than selling C/C++ compilers or not).

[SiliconWizard]

Actually, the real life arguing over her, has got much, much worse than that.

Would you believe, they are arguing over her family history, from the 1890's ?

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Elizabeth_Holmes

Why am I not surprised?

[edy]

Isn't there a trial coming up and what, if any, jail time is she facing for defrauding investors? And what about her CEO and love-interest partner Mr. "Sunny" Balwani who probably enabled the whole fiasco? I bet you her defence will argue she was naive and Balwani took advantage of this. She will wriggle out of it somehow with her puppy dog facial expression and altered voice, just wait and see.

Just look at this photo... "I had no idea what was going on, it was all Balwani's idea... I am just as much a victim as everyone else":



The defence will say... She was still a teen when she met Balwani, fresh after getting into university and then deciding to dropout, vulnerable and having no business experience, she became seduced by new boyfriend and much older Balwani with his MBA degree and his dot-com millions to pursue Theranos as a start-up... he groomed her into this role and he controlled all the investor financials, while all she did was work on the technology. Balwani will get the lions share of the sentence (jail time and penalties) while Holmes will get a slap on the wrist. Well played!

The funny/sad thing is, if it hadn't gotten so big so fast and so greedy they could have probably duped quite a bit of money out of investors and walked away with several tens of millions each.. certainly good enough for a 20-something to live on for an entire life and more than most people would ever hope to earn an entire lifetime. And they probably wouldn't be in any real trouble... a lot of startups end up bilking investors and slowly fizzle. High stakes gambling... some make it and many lose. Honestly I don't think she had the intent to defraud initially but when she got wrapped up in the whole game and it took a life of its own, she didn't have the moral and ethical fortitude to put on the brakes. She went along and then began to even lie outright hoping the technology would eventually catch up with the expectations they had promised.

[edy]

I forgot to mention, there may be some psychological personality issue involved. Here's the HBO documentary:



[ADDED LATER:]

By the way she is looking for investors for a new startup  ... with Theranos either having already (or on the verge of declaring bankruptcy) and while she awaits trial this summer and may go to jail. I wonder if she will be able to run the company from prison? Maybe one of those country-club jails like Martha Stewart stayed in.

It seems most of the money that poured into Theranos was from a bunch of rich people who probably deserved to lose it for not doing even basic vetting. That was just dumb, but hey they were hypnotized by Elizabeth's unblinking psychopathic glare and deepened voice. 

What Elizabeth Holmes should go to jail for is not that she took money from dumb greedy rich billionaire men... it should be to take responsibility for the fact that the company was irresponsibly dishing out medical lab results which were wrong and causing patient suffering and potential harm by having doctors rely on adulterated and inaccurate diagnostic data. Businesses fail, they screw up, they make bad decisions, they lose money, they go bankrupt, etc. Life goes on, people try again and maybe succeed the next time. But when the top executives and richest people in the organization are being warned repeatedly by workers and know they are producing erroneous life-changing medical lab results to clients, that is not just a business mistake... that is just immoral unethical deceit. Just take the quote from the following linked article:

"Certainly when big investors lose money, it may not be a significant problem because they always seem to have more money,” he added. “But the larger issue involves patient harm. And, for many of the patients harmed by Theranos’ testing methods, that harm is lasting, whether it’s financial or physical."

https://www.darkintelligencegroup.com/the-dark-report/laboratory-compliance/many-patients-harmed-theranos/

[Domagoj T]

[magic]

Just look at this photo... "I had no idea what was going on, it was all Balwani's idea... I am just as much a victim as everyone else"

Haha, true. But seriously, do you know what's the chance of this really being the case? She admittedly does look more dumb than malicious to me...

Honestly I don't think she had the intent to defraud initially but when she got wrapped up in the whole game and it took a life of its own, she didn't have the moral and ethical fortitude to put on the brakes. She went along and then began to even lie outright hoping the technology would eventually catch up with the expectations they had promised.

Typical startup, too bad that they tried it in medicine

[Bud]

Well, as long as she sold just "one" compiler set to China, she qualified for " i sold compilers to China" 

[I wanted a rude username]

" i sold compilers to China"

To be extra pedantic, wouldn't she need to sell at least two of them? 

[MK14]

To be extra pedantic, wouldn't she need to sell at least two of them? 

Well, to be extra extra extra pedantic. If it was a C AND C++ compiler (which it somewhat seems to be, from the very vague reports). You could argue, it was two compilers (for the price of one). So, a single sale would count.