Author Topic: The purpose of your life and the origin of our universe.  (Read 4600 times)

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Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: The purpose of your life and the origin of our universe.
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2020, 11:00:14 am »
Animals are not given metacognition.. some homo sapiens too, to some extend dont use it very well, or not at all..
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 
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Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: The purpose of your life and the origin of our universe.
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2020, 03:18:49 pm »
We are a quantum fluctuation. Blame it on Heisenberg.
 

Offline unknownparticle

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Re: The purpose of your life and the origin of our universe.
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2020, 03:58:02 pm »
Humanity and indeed other life on earth has no cosmic significance, life is just a chance bio chemical occurance.  Each individuals life is what they make it, good or bad, worthwhile (to humanity) or not,  of any significance or not, etc, etc.  I think it is incredible that humans have the ability to explore, discover and work out at least some of what is going on in the universe, I only wish I had the brains to be a scientist and do that too. 

Ulmtimately though, what ever humanity achieves for itself will all be lost and annihalated when the universe finally succumbs to it's ultimate fait, and nothing and no being will ever know of our existance.  So, in effect, nothing actually matters.
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Offline paullo

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Re: The purpose of your life and the origin of our universe.
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2020, 04:32:14 pm »
There were never any good old days, they are today, they are tomorrow. It's a stupid thing we say cursing tomorrow with sorrow
 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: The purpose of your life and the origin of our universe.
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2020, 04:41:57 pm »


 ;D
 
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: The purpose of your life and the origin of our universe.
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2020, 04:30:48 am »
To increase entropy.

As a 'Murcan, I'm doing my part!

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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: The purpose of your life and the origin of our universe.
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2020, 07:04:52 am »
"Increasing entropy" that's how I was told, too.   ???

But when I look around I see a natural tendency toward structure.  Everything tend to lump together and grow into more and more complex structures, from supposedly big-bang blob of energy to nicely behaved galaxies, planets, filaments, whatever.  Same with matter we call as "alive".  Same with other more "virtual" structures, like society, or even thoughts, as in thinking, apparently everything tend to self organize into more and more complex "something".
 :o

For some reason, for now the Universe is busy doing exactly the opposite than diffusing itself into an eternal tranquility.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2020, 07:08:14 am by RoGeorge »
 
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: The purpose of your life and the origin of our universe.
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2020, 07:23:40 am »
Entropy doesn't care about the superficial things you consider "order".  A "structured" black hole contains far more entropy your genome does.  (Than the sum genomes of all currently-known life?  Guessing so.)  The overall systematic march towards higher entropy, does not at all preclude localized order -- that's a strawman -- and indeed if local order leads to higher overall disorder, in time, all the better.

Take even just the Earth for example.  So much entropy locked away in fossil coal, stuck there for eons.  Wouldn't have gone anywhere if not for humans!

Tim
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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: The purpose of your life and the origin of our universe.
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2020, 09:36:22 am »
Last phrase sounds like a guilt trip plug, but I'll assume it's just me.   ;D

The other side of burning that that coal was at great help in adding even more structure to this world.

First, it helped keeping more of us, the monkeys, alive.  Then, some of that coal was used to melt sand into microprocessors, some other part is used as we speak to power those processors.  Now, piles and piles of data are harvested and structured into databases and knowledge.

But why would a database structure be of any relevance relative to real world structures we were talking, by real world thinking matter and energy?

Without going into very bamboozling hypotheses like "we are living in a computer", there are clues that there is a direct equivalence between information and energy, the same equivalence as for the already accepted equivalence between energy and mass.

One of the most screaming evidence for the "information is energy" idea is the Maxwell's demon gedankenexperiment.  Apparently we would be able to get energy out of nothing if it were to have such a smart demon.  However, the most reasonable explanation for why this doesn't happen, and there is no paradox in it, is because the experiment completely ignores information.  The demon needs to know the velocity of each gas molecule (the state), and needs to know how they behave (the laws), so to anticipate when to slide the door open.

By accounting the quantity of information required for such a demon to operate, and the quantity of energy "gained" because of the demon's "knowledge" while operating the door, we can conclude there is a direct equivalence between information and energy, and we can find an E = mc2 formula, but between information and energy instead of between energy and mass.

So, at an optimistic stretch, we burnt some coal (matter), gained some very well structured computers in the process, and lots of databases (information), which information is equivalent with energy, as we just showed, and energy is equivalent with mass, as it was already known.

If transitivity applies between information (\$I\$), energy (\$E\$) and mass (\$M\$) then
$$I \equiv E$$ as we just explained, and
$$E \equiv M$$ because E = mc2, which leads to \$I \equiv M\$, or else said
$$I \equiv E \equiv M$$
which reads as... ^-^ "all is one", but in a non-mystical sense.

Information is energy is mass (well, here the word "is" has the meaning of "can be converted into" rather than the meaning of "are the same").

In conclusion, we just structured the (local) Universe even more by burning those fossil fuels.  :D

I'm so proud of me and my fellow humans.   ;D
We, the stupid monkeys, burning coal and lowering local entropy together!  :-+
« Last Edit: January 31, 2020, 10:02:28 am by RoGeorge »
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: The purpose of your life and the origin of our universe.
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2020, 10:29:17 am »
Last phrase sounds like a guilt trip plug, but I'll assume it's just me.   ;D

It is what it is.  It's probably not a healthy lifestyle for humans, but the planet overall isn't going to care.  Egoists that we are, this is of course what we mean when we say we're "destroying the planet".  It can't possibly be literal: physically destroying the planet would require the Sun's total power output for a week, an amount of power we simply don't have control of.


Quote
The other side of burning that that coal was at great help in adding even more structure to this world.

First, it helped keeping more of us, the monkeys, alive.  Then, some of that coal was used to melt sand into microprocessors, some other part is used as we speak to power those processors.  Now, piles and piles of data are harvested and structured it into databases and knowledge.

But why would a database structure be of any relevance relative to real world structures we were talking, by real world thinking matter and energy?

Without going into very bamboozling hypotheses like "we are living in a computer", there are clues that there is a direct equivalence between information and energy, like there is the already accepted equivalence between energy and mass.

Well, right, and thus you can calculate the amount of entropy that all of those things contain.

I'll give you a head start: the entropy of any given material is not very different from any other.

Very high purity silicon crystal sounds like a low entropy material, but it has about the same heat capacity, binding energy, etc. as everything else.

So on a physical basis, we've drawn neat patterns in the sand, but all we have is still just a whole lot of sand, and the ocean of the cosmos is impossibly, unimaginably larger in comparison, ready to wipe away those patterns in an instant.  (Gosh, that's kind of a threatening way to put it, but in perspective, over billions or trillions of years, that's not undeserved I guess.)

Even if we had crafted "computronium", it's not obvious to me that it would have any higher or lower entropy than most other materials.  It's going to be an incredibly complex substance compared to a crystal, sure -- perhaps it would even release a measurable amount of energy when melted and crystallized into its component elements (and assuming it doesn't store a lot of chemical energy).  But that complexity means there's still more disorder left to go, and it need not be any higher entropy than, say, ordinary soda-lime glass.

No, material entropy is a big nothing-burger.  Doesn't even begin to register on our planet's energy balance, not by orders of orders of magnitude.

The highest entropy activities we're doing right now, have to do with transformation of bulk materials (concrete, iron?), and motive power (everything we use fuels for).  At least... that would be my guess.

We pass around a truly insignificant amount of information.  Our best computers are about 0.00001% efficient by an information-theoretic basis.  And those computers only make up a negligible fraction* of our total material output.  We're still very much in the industrial age, burning fuel for heat for the most part.  Our computers are quite useful to us, driving an excitingly disproportionate sum of our economy -- but are utterly, impossibly humble compared to the physical limits of the universe.

*In terms of, say, high-purity silicon output?  Which is what, a few million tonnes over the history of semiconductors?  We use gigatons of concrete and steel annually!

Imagine how much potential we would have, if we committed that much materiel to computation alone!  But then, we wouldn't even have the infrastructure or fuel reserves to power it, let alone the programs to run on it that would allow us to create and solve ever more advanced problems.  Problems like, oh I don't know, synthesizing complete manufacturing processes for new, ever more efficient and powerful computers. :)

That's the curse of the cave-man computation we are at: we aren't even advanced enough to save ourselves from our own inefficiency (again, in an information theoretic sense).

What we have today is far beyond the wildest dreams of any human of generations past, but we are at still such an incredibly early stage compared to the ultimate limits of these pursuits.

In case my point is not yet clear --

Quote
So, at an optimistic stretch, we burnt some coal (matter), gained some very well structured computers in the process, and lots of databases (information), which information is equivalent with energy, as we just showed, and energy is equivalent with mass, as it was already known.

The amount of coal we have burned is, I don't even know, I'd have to look it up -- say a million quads.  10^24 joules.

The amount of information we possess is... something like 10^22 bits?  Say that's stored at a whopping one electronvolt per bit (which seems like a pretty safe level near room temperature, and given a little idle power to run error correction with).  1eV is 1.6e-19 J, so the sum knowledge of the human race amounts to, not even a candy bar's worth of energy with that kind of storage.

Tim
« Last Edit: January 31, 2020, 10:44:05 am by T3sl4co1l »
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Online iMo

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Re: The purpose of your life and the origin of our universe.
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2020, 10:36:36 am »
The existence of our Universe and life on Earth is just a coincidence.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: The purpose of your life and the origin of our universe.
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2020, 12:27:44 pm »

Is this about the right time to bring up Baudrillard simulacra?
 

Offline DG41WV

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Re: The purpose of your life and the origin of our universe.
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2020, 01:32:56 pm »
Just do whatever your monkey brain tells you to do and try not to dig too deep. Ignorance is bliss.
 

Offline unknownparticle

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Re: The purpose of your life and the origin of our universe.
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2020, 04:25:28 pm »
Totally. There is sure to be an extinction level event just around the corner.
DC coupling is the devils work!!
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: The purpose of your life and the origin of our universe.
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2020, 06:51:28 pm »
Question asked to the teacher, how did the universe as we know it form.

In the early days of  the universe it was incredibly hot, so much so that energies and temperatures were far in excess of the best we can achieve these days, even with the largest particle accelerators, with the highest energies we can safely contain. The original universe was a single point, which rapidly expanded, and slowly cooled down. Eventually it cooled down to the point where electrons could combine with protons to form neutral hydrogen, and the photons thus could travel in long paths without colliding.  We can still see the remnants of this in the background radiation, though it is approaching absolute zero. Then the first suns formed, hot and bright, and they formed all sorts of exotic matter when they eventually went supernova, forming the first black holes.  As the universe expanded, the time it took for light to travel from the furtherest points got longer than the time since the universe began, and some of the oldest objects were lost forever from view. Thus we cannot see the furtherest galaxies, though we know from empirical evidence and deduction that they must be there, as there are echoes of the mass imprinted on the background.

Eventually the longest living brown dwarf suns also burnt out, forming the cool iron cores, which currently are circling the black holes illuminating the universe from Hawking radiation, giving us the energy we need to survive. There are occasional mergers of these black holes, but they are luckily not common, the radiation is deadly for large distances, energies approaching the early days of the universe, around 14 billion years after it was formed, out of a singularity quantum fluctuation. The odd iron core will fall in, but those events can be predicted long in advance, and we move far enough away so that we are not destroyed from the deadly heat.

It is hard to imagine a universe where there is so much energy that material is not all a nice comfortable solid, with the exception of the life giving supercold helium we need to survive. imagine where things that we consider immutable, like hydrogen, carbon, iron and nickel, are hot enough that they actually flow, and can form gases that are incredibly corrosive to us, and where chemical reactions occur almost at the speed of light.

However, this is only the introduction, and the full course material will be the occupation of those students who chose this course, and who complete the study period and pass. Class will occur at the beginning of the semester for those who qualify.
 
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Offline VK3DRB

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Re: The purpose of your life and the origin of our universe.
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2020, 12:17:53 am »
Why are we here?

Here are a few answers, some of which may be not politically correct:

1. To finish the "To Do" list presented to me on my wedding day. "And when you get to the bottom of the list, here is another one."
2. To pay taxes upon taxes, unless you are super wealthy.
3. To fill your brain with electronics theory. A form of self flagellation?
4. To contribute to the bank accounts of the rich and powerful. After all, Bezos and Gates need more money, don't they?
5. To love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Boy have I fallen short - I often think about electronics. And finishing that dreaded list.
6. To go forth and multiply. Yep done that, and I can even do long division without a calculator.
7. Forty-two.
and for the young...
8. Your mobile phone.

Actually the reason we are here is fundamentally is a very good question. But there will be an answer.

A question I asked a minister once was "If your parents had never met, would you have been born?" His answer was... "Good question!"
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: The purpose of your life and the origin of our universe.
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2020, 12:20:56 am »
We are a quantum fluctuation. Blame it on Heisenberg.

You can't be certain about that.
 
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Offline Brumby

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Re: The purpose of your life and the origin of our universe.
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2020, 12:22:23 am »
Animals are not given metacognition.. some homo sapiens too, to some extend dont use it very well, or not at all..

Recursive thinking..... ?

There's a disaster waiting to happen ... ... ... or has it happened already?
 

Offline hamster_nz

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Re: The purpose of your life and the origin of our universe.
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2020, 01:02:59 am »
At the end, its all about low temperature chemical reactions at the surface on earth, and will stop once it reached equilibrium if there is no space colonization, or just wait till the sun goes bang/expand and roast everything.

Like a really faint blip in pico or femto seconds at universe's clock.

Got to do something with all that low-entropy sunlight...

I am more amazed with how slow life progresses. Things happen in pico and nanosecond timescales...
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Offline TerraHertz

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Re: The purpose of your life and the origin of our universe.
« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2020, 02:25:03 am »
All the evolutionary stages of non-sentient life have no 'purpose', they just are, like rocks and sky. Physical memes, ie assemblages of functional self-replicating information, instantiated in constructs of complex molecules, existing wherever energy flows and chemical conditions permit.

Once sentience develops, it has the capability of choosing purpose for itself. However it still has to work its way through the thickets of many dysfunctional, parasitic worldview memes. Such as belief systems that insist 'purpose' is imposed from claimed external entities, without actually being able to demonstrate true sources or proof of concept.

Eventually, if it's lucky, sentience arrives at a belief system that enables both personal choice of purpose, AND a functional scientific approach to learning and investigation of reality. If it's even luckier (or stronge enough) sentience can hold onto this, despite efforts of The Stupid to drag it back down into more primitive meme sets.

And then... Sentience develops the branches of science required to effectively manipulate the underlying chemical coding schemes of their own physical bodies. Now it's a loop, with feedback.  Genes --> physical form --> sentience --> genes.

We're close to that point. Unfortunately it's a point past which all bets are off. There are infinitely many diverging paths, most with pretty grim destinations.

Technology is incompatible with species. You can't maintain species consistency of code-base, when some individuals have the tech to modify their own code at will. Not to mention performing involuntary mass-edits (or kills) on others via contagious gene-editing vectors.

However there are some paths, for some, that have great outcomes. It's all about the purpose you choose for yourself.

Anyone have a good source of telomerase?

----
Btw, did you know the Wuhan corona-virus just happens to be highly selective for individuals of Asian genetic heritage?
  https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.26.919985v1.full
  Single-cell RNA expression profiling of ACE2, the putative receptor of Wuhan 2019-nCov

And some familiar names turn up...
  https://futurism.com/neoscope/recent-simulation-coronavirus-killed-65-million-people

Incidentally, if you want to see a fine example of the variation of search result themes between google and duckduckgo, give each of them the search term "coronavirus patent Gates"


Surely you didn't imagine such tools would be used wisely?
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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: The purpose of your life and the origin of our universe.
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2020, 07:54:25 am »
As the universe expanded, the time it took for light to travel from the furtherest points got longer than the time since the universe began, and some of the oldest objects were lost forever from view. Thus we cannot see the furtherest galaxies, though we know from empirical evidence and deduction that they must be there, as there are echoes of the mass imprinted on the background.

About that, looking outside of our observable Universe is trivial if we start considering information, in this case memory is the key.

All we have to do is to send a telescope near the edge of our observable sphere.  The telescope will have it's own observable sphere, and some of that sphere will be outside of ours.  So, the telescope can look for us outside of our own observable Universe, then re-transmit all to us.  Same as in the ancient times, when people used to use smoke signals, or shouting orders from one to another in the battle.

Hard in practice to have an outpost at the edge of the Universe, but perfectly doable in theory.   ;D

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: The purpose of your life and the origin of our universe.
« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2020, 10:41:35 am »
All we have to do is to send a telescope near the edge of our observable sphere.  The telescope will have it's own observable sphere, and some of that sphere will be outside of ours.  So, the telescope can look for us outside of our own observable Universe, then re-transmit all to us.
Since information can travel at most at the speed of light, by the time that information from the telescope arrives to us, our own observable universe has expanded to cover the telescopes observable universe at the time it sent the transmission.

So no, that won't work.

The volume of the universe we can observe expands at the speed of light.  This has nothing to do with inflation, but just the fact that information travels at light speed.

You can shift the sphere of the universe you can observe by moving, and observe things before others elsewhere in the universe, but when you transmit any information, by the time the information can arrive anywhere, the observable universe at the destination has expanded to cover the volume the information is about.  You can do a simple flat 2D model of this, and visualize it easily; in 3D, it is a bit mind-boggling.
 

Offline thinkfat

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Re: The purpose of your life and the origin of our universe.
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2020, 10:45:18 am »
I am very fond of wearing my digital watch.
Everybody likes gadgets. Until they try to make them.
 

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