The Hyperloop: BUSTED

[stj]

you do.

[David Hess]

And all that doesn't even take in the political issues. Do you really think they could build such a system that only served the two end cities without requiring lots of stops at other cities along the route? This idea is a true turkey and a real fiscal boondoggle.

That is a feature which makes it politically possible.  Politicians and their friends can buy up the land where future train stops will be added at the other cities along the route just like with the DC to Dulles freeway.

[hayatepilot]

I don't think we have the technology to dig a 400 mile tunnel

Yes, it shouldn't be too difficult, because it wouldn't be that far underground. So after every couple of km one could make a opening to the surface to get the dirt out and bring machinery and people in.
Just many tunnels in series. 

Greetings

[Brutte]

Politicians and their friends can buy up the land where future train stops will be added at the other cities along the route just like with the DC to Dulles freeway.

Greed. The best part of US.

[Mark_Of_Sanity]

UPDATE

So a team of hyperloop engineers had a reddit session and I thought I'd share the link here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/4wck43/hi_were_mostly_engineers_here_at_hyperloop_one/

Also, one of them briefly addressed Thunderfoot, which I will quote here.

"I've got this one. I have watched the video, and made copious notes. Thunderf00t is a well known youtube science commentator, best known for debunking religious fundamentalists and understanding the surface-maximization of liquid alkali metals, published in Nature last year.

That aside, both hyperloop videos show a complete reluctance to engage with the real arguments. Sorry, but highlighting some semi-literate comments by your critics does not amount to engaging in a useful discussion. I would like to levitate this video into the sun.

Here are some specific points and rebuttals: -Thunderf00t primarily makes reference to the Hyperloop alpha whitepaper, written by some SpaceX employees in 2013. I saw no evidence of engagement with subsequent press releases by any of the hyperloop companies. In particular, TF doesn't seem to be aware that there is more than one hyperloop company. FYI, we are Hyperloop One, the company that has raised ~$108 and built the world's most powerful linear motor in 5 months. -Thunderf00t talks a good game about aerodynamics, but shows no evidence of even having read the wikipedia article on choked flow, duct flow, the Kantrowitz limit, or knowing any of the other 'first day on the job' level detail for our aero team. -One of Thunderf00t's technical gotchas was 'expansion joints are difficult', despite the fact that hydraulic cylinders exist, most steel rails are thermally pretensioned, and thermal expansion is probably something we thought of already. -Thunderf00t could have easily looked up our people on LinkedIn, checked their google scholar bona fides, whatever, but seemed more keen on a cheap take down than actually engaging with interesting and ongoing engineering challenges. -One symptom of the level of technical effort that went into TF's video is his careless assumption that 1g = 1m/s/s, as though Hyperloop was being built on some tiny moon of Jupiter. As a fellow academic, I was disappointed by TF's lack of intellectual humility in an area in which he is obviously not an expert. One would wonder why TF would put such hastily produced, easily debunked rubbish on his Patreon feed - people actually pay for that!

-Casey"


Thoughts?

p.s.

"$108" in the quote is meant to be $(10 to the power of 8 ).

[EEVblog]

So a team of hyperloop engineers had a reddit session and I thought I'd share the link here.
https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/4wck43/hi_were_mostly_engineers_here_at_hyperloop_one/

Also, one of them briefly addressed Thunderfoot, which I will quote here.

Thunderf00t could have easily looked up our people on LinkedIn, checked their google scholar bona fides, whatever, but seemed more keen on a cheap take down than actually engaging with interesting and ongoing engineering challenges.

uBeam have (had) the best acoustics experts on the planet, that doesn't make the idea the least bit practical.

-One symptom of the level of technical effort that went into TF's video is his careless assumption that 1g = 1m/s/s, as though Hyperloop was being built on some tiny moon of Jupiter. As a fellow academic, I was disappointed by TF's lack of intellectual humility in an area in which he is obviously not an expert. One would wonder why TF would put such hastily produced, easily debunked rubbish on his Patreon feed - people actually pay for that!
-Casey"

The inability of Casey to actually debunk his argument is duly noted. It was simply hand waving and throwing a few terms around.

[StuUK]

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Backfire_effect

[boffin]

i dont know why your all talking about surface-rail.

underground rail is more expensive to build - initially.
*BUT*
surface rail requires years of negiotiations over land leasing / purchase etc.
and you have issues with objects in the way of the route that cant be purchased and leveled,
not to mention the terrain will need to be leveled in places and built-up in others.

it's also more vulnerable to nature, accidents, and sabotage.

If you drive from LA to San Francisco you'll realize how easy it is to build surface rail on the bakerfields to gilroy section.  It's flat, wideopen, and mostly farmland. No point in tunnels.  Google for a picture of "Bakersfield" and you'll get the idea.

Will you need tunnels in and out of LA & San Fran?  Yes.

[mtdoc]

UPDATE

So a team of hyperloop engineers had a reddit session and I thought I'd share the link here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/4wck43/hi_were_mostly_engineers_here_at_hyperloop_one/

Thanks for the link Mark_Of_Sanity.  It's an interesting read. Kudos to Hyperloop One for doing that.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Backfire_effect

Yep.

[Mark_Of_Sanity]

Another update to the discussion.



Note, I personaly don't care for the petty tones of people on either side.
Why not just have an investigative mind and just be willing to find the facts of the matter.
Discussion can only broaden our understanding of the subject.

Both TF, some Hyperloop engineers and this dude needlessly try and make this personal. smh

P.S.

Summary of the video is that in the case of leak, the system is designed to go through a rapid represurization of the tube
in a controlled fashion, and for all the cars to come to a stop. He also states that the shockwave doesn't exist although
I don't quite understand that point entirely. But the controlled repressurization makes sense if it can be done that is.

[Mark_Of_Sanity]

[dannyf]

Why not just have an investigative mind and just be willing to find the facts of the matter.

Quite a few factors make that mostly impossible: ego, personal interests, and (necessary) speculation, to name a few.

To me, this whole thing seems quite silly in that i don't see it being able to compete economically with other means of transportation. Unless that can be answer with a high degree of confidence, finding money for this is going to be difficult.

[Brumby]

Hold onto your hats .... or should I say stomachs:

Hyperloop: high-speed rail network that could come to Australia
http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/australian-economy/hyperloop-highspeed-rail-network-that-could-come-to-australia/news-story/704d2ee6a76b425d8d1c23e756f8fd85

[vk6zgo]

Hold onto your hats .... or should I say stomachs:

Hyperloop: high-speed rail network that could come to Australia
http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/australian-economy/hyperloop-highspeed-rail-network-that-could-come-to-australia/news-story/704d2ee6a76b425d8d1c23e756f8fd85

Not going to fly!!
The topography doesn't lend itself,plus NSW & Vic would have to  get Federal funds.
That would go over like a wrought iron hanglider with the other States.

Perfect proof to WA that the Vic/NSW axis,with the connivance of Canberra, were out to screw us out of a fair share of
our GST,whilst blowing Billions on a "toy".
The rumbles of Secession will start to appear.

WAexit,anyone??

[max_torque]

QUESTION:

Is current technology mass transit by rail limited by train velocity?

ANSWER:

No.


The limiting factors for the installation, adoption and use of mass rail transit, are, imo:

1) Ticket Cost
2) Infrastructure build and maintainance costs
3) Availability of land for use by said rail network (At least in the UK, where i live)


So the Hyperloop, assuming it can be made to work on a practical, day to day level, solves exactly none of those issues.


Hence, Hyperloop = pointless,  irrelevant of any engineering practicalities or solutions.

[David Hess]

So the Hyperloop, assuming it can be made to work on a practical, day to day level, solves exactly none of those issues.

And at least here in the US if the Hyperloop or any other train service *did* solve all of these problems and become competitive with airlines, TSA would step in and add security delays.  We have already had incidents with TSA conducting security checks (euphemism) of train and bus passengers at their destination.

Why at their destination?  Maybe because they are jerks.

[Corporate666]

QUESTION:

Is current technology mass transit by rail limited by train velocity?

ANSWER:

No.

The limiting factors for the installation, adoption and use of mass rail transit, are, imo:

1) Ticket Cost
2) Infrastructure build and maintainance costs
3) Availability of land for use by said rail network (At least in the UK, where i live)

Is that true, though?  Do you have supporting studies or documentation?  I'm not calling you out - rather I think we all have our own opinions that often aren't reality.  Me included regarding trains.

I can tell you that in the Boston to NYC corridor, Amtrak implemented the Acela high speed rail and over the years, it has slowly gobbled up market share from the airlines to the point that it now has something like 70%.  I have driven, flown, taken the bus and taken the train between the two cities and the high speed train is a really nice experience that I used to discount until I tried it.  The only downside is that it isn't faster.  That is the aspect they are working on.  They aren't working on making ticket prices cheaper.  Nor are they trying to lower maintenance costs.  Nor are they worrying about availability of land.  They have existing rail lines in densely populated areas (the only places where rail works), and the problem is upgrading old tracks, bridges, transfer points and tunnels to handle higher and higher speed trains.  The trains they use here could go quite a bit faster, but they lean into turns, and this makes them incompatible with many of the tunnels.   They are working on upgrading the bottlenecks one-by-one so that they can increase the speed of the trains, and they have already committed to buying a newer batch of trains which will be faster still.  So my anecdotal evidence is that it's all about speed - people are perfectly happy to pay the same price as a plane ticket in order to be able to show up 10 minutes before departure, sit in a comfy chair at a table, get WiFi internet, have a meal car with food and drink and arrive at Penn Station on a perfectly predictable schedule.  The straw that broke the camels (airlines) back was going from regular speed rail to high speed rail - that stole tons of airline market share.  Making it faster still will grab even more.

So the Hyperloop, assuming it can be made to work on a practical, day to day level, solves exactly none of those issues.

Issues which, IMO, are not issues.

Hence, Hyperloop = pointless,  irrelevant of any engineering practicalities or solutions.

I think people would absolutely pay a pretty penny to get between major population centers quickly.  A 30 minute express hyperloop from Boston to NYC could easily command $200 each-way ticket prices all day long.  That's around a 150 mile trip each way.

Sure, there are engineering challenges, but no way is it as much of a slam-dunk in the outrageous category as batterizer, solar roadways, the ultrasonic power thing or the other stuff Dave and Thunderfoot are comparing it to, IMO.

[jonovid]

Hyperloop: high-speed rail network that could come to Australia

  only in the  Australian Capital Territory. the centrifugal force of the Loop can be use to remove politicians from out of office, that outstay their use by date.    But Seriously Hyperloop should only be used for parcel express post.  Maglev Trains of 430 km/h (270 mph).for passengers on long journeys with no stopping along the way.

[amspire]

Hold onto your hats .... or should I say stomachs:

Hyperloop: high-speed rail network that could come to Australia
http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/australian-economy/hyperloop-highspeed-rail-network-that-could-come-to-australia/news-story/704d2ee6a76b425d8d1c23e756f8fd85

Not going to fly!!
The topography doesn't lend itself,plus NSW & Vic would have to  get Federal funds.
That would go over like a wrought iron hanglider with the other States.

I think Australia is the perfect place to propose the Hyperloop because we are fabulous at proposing high speed rail.
It is a form of national entertainment. I have a folder from the 1990 Very Fast Train Project Conference in Canberra. For only $150 million of government money and 5 Billion dollars of private enterprise investment and we were going to have a high speed Sydney to Melbourne train that was going to take 70% of the traffic away from the airways. The ticket price was going to be about $200 one way in today's money but I think that was before the airlines started really discounting the airfares.

If someone wants to come here and propose another High Speed Rail, we will welcome them even if the technology is impractical. It is not as if we are going to build anything.

[stj]

ticket price is everything, for passengers.

in the u.k. for example, the corruption is so bad that if you have to cross the country then it's much cheaper to fly than take a train.

for goods it's going to be different, your comparing a rail-car to the cost of trucking it by road.

[EEVblog]

I think people would absolutely pay a pretty penny to get between major population centers quickly.

I think so too. People will pay for speed and convenience.

Sure, there are engineering challenges, but no way is it as much of a slam-dunk in the outrageous category as batterizer, solar roadways, the ultrasonic power thing or the other stuff Dave and Thunderfoot are comparing it to, IMO.

The commercial Hyperloop is never going to happen, guaranteed by the laws of practical real world engineering. I'll happily take a bet on it.

[jonovid]

People will pay for speed and convenience.

  everybody's seeking to unlock Time travel  so just how do you get the DeLorean to hover? 

[amspire]

I think people would absolutely pay a pretty penny to get between major population centers quickly.

I think so too. People will pay for speed and convenience.

Had to laugh. The cost of a single ticket from Sydney to the City of Bathurst on our XPT train is $61 or $2.50 if you are entitled to a pensioner excursion ticket and it takes over 3 1/2 hours. The straight line distance is about 130km. The rail distance is about 200km.

For some reason, it is much more popular with pensioners then everyone else. Most people drive as it is quicker, cheaper and more convenient. I think it is only one passenger train a day on the line that serves the whole of Central NSW.

That is an indication of the state of our nationwide rail network. If you catch a suburban train from Sydney to Lithgow and catch a bus to Bathurst, it costs $8.80 but takes over 4 hours.

If we could have something like a regular country train service that could go at an average of 100kph at a cheap cost, that would be great.

[EEVblog]

Most people drive as it is quicker, cheaper and more convenient.

That was the point. Even if petrol was $5 a litre they'd still drive it if it's more convenient and faster.
If there was a suitable high speed train that was both of those things then people would use it.

[vk6zgo]

I think people would absolutely pay a pretty penny to get between major population centers quickly.

I think so too. People will pay for speed and convenience.

Had to laugh. The cost of a single ticket from Sydney to the City of Bathurst on our XPT train is $61 or $2.50 if you are entitled to a pensioner excursion ticket and it takes over 3 1/2 hours. The straight line distance is about 130km. The rail distance is about 200km.

For some reason, it is much more popular with pensioners then everyone else. Most people drive as it is quicker, cheaper and more convenient. I think it is only one passenger train a day on the line that serves the whole of Central NSW.

That is an indication of the state of our nationwide rail network. If you catch a suburban train from Sydney to Lithgow and catch a bus to Bathurst, it costs $8.80 but takes over 4 hours.

If we could have something like a regular country train service that could go at an average of 100kph at a cheap cost, that would be great.

"The Australind" over a similar distance,( Perth-Bunbury) takes 2Hrs 30 Mins.(an average of 66.8kmh).
Rail & road distances are near as dammit the same at 167 km for the train,& 170 by road.

PS:- "The Prospector" travels the 653 km to Kalgoorlie  in 6Hrs 45Mins (Average of 96.74 kmh)