Singapore tops global education rankings

[coppice]

Our "STEM" college graduates are having problem finding jobs.  Many of them are doing jobs barely requiring high school.  This is from US Department of Commerce, US Census Bureau (I added the bold):
"The U.S. Census Bureau reported today that 74 percent of those who have a bachelor's degree in science, technology, engineering and math — commonly referred to as STEM — are not employed in STEM occupations. "
^{http://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2014/cb14-130.html}

I don't know how meaningful those figures are. Anyone serious about a job above technician grade in science or engineering needs a masters these days. Most smart people leaving college at the batchelor level aren't really interested in a career in science or engineering. This has changed. A generation ago a batchelor's degree was the entry point for most technical work.

[Rick Law]

Our "STEM" college graduates are having problem finding jobs.  Many of them are doing jobs barely requiring high school.  This is from US Department of Commerce, US Census Bureau (I added the bold):
"The U.S. Census Bureau reported today that 74 percent of those who have a bachelor's degree in science, technology, engineering and math — commonly referred to as STEM — are not employed in STEM occupations. "
^{http://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2014/cb14-130.html}

I don't know how meaningful those figures are. Anyone serious about a job above technician grade in science or engineering needs a masters these days. Most smart people leaving college at the batchelor level aren't really interested in a career in science or engineering. This has changed. A generation ago a batchelor's degree was the entry point for most technical work.

"...Anyone serious about a job above technician grade in science or engineering needs a masters these days..."

But we are saying the largely same thing.  Being a bachelor's degree holder is not as good as it was.

A BS from MIT was getting noticed whereas a BS from an average state university is being snuffed at.  One can draw the conclusion that academically-average kids today is not as valuable as academically-average kids of a 20 years ago.

[tronde]

Statistics is statistics, you can also re-cut the data to see whatever you want to see.  So I agree that the ranking could be misleading.  However, it cannot be an excuse to hold back frequent self-reassessments.  Whether #2 or #42, an honest assessment of "how are we competing in the real-world" should be done and done frequently.

I do really agree that it makes sense to know your status. The problem is how do we get that information? Education is a big pond. A lot of people fish in that pond. Some want to understand (researchers), some want to prove that they are right and the other wrong (politicians and policy makers) and some have found a nice new way to make money (look up "Pearson and PISA").

I too feel that we are heading in the wrong direction. The problem is how we can get reliable information and knowledge? If we just test, and don't consider the strengts and weaknesses of the test we will probably never find the answer. We know that the politicians act in panic, and the only thing that matters is to be among the top.

It is one thing that is important to know about both TIMMS and PISA: The result of the test does not in any way affect the future of the pupil being tested. The test is anonymous, the result for any given indiidual is not known, and neither the pupil nor the school gets any feedback. We know for sure that a lot of pupils (at least in Europe) deliberately underperform because of this.

Given the differences in culture between the asian countries that are believed to be more likely to follow instructions from authorities and the western culture that is not as likely to follow them this important to consider.

I believe, but don't know, that the gap between east and west is a lot smaller than the test results indicates. This is not the same as we are good enough. This is more that the top four are less unique and probably not as good as we believe.


This is a rather easy to understand description of PISA from Ireland.
http://files.nesc.ie/nesc_secretariat_papers/No_2_pisa_report.pdf

[mtdoc]

The overarching trend of declining education, health care, job quality, etc in the US is part of a bigger problem of an empire in decline IMHO.  We've been holding up a facade of "exceptionalism" for the past 40 years but the underlying problems have been seeping through the cracks in that facade and becoming more and more visible.

All the while, we are told our unemployment rate is declining and the same data say those not working are increasing...  So, it is very clear things are not as it should be. 

   
Yep.

...
The biggest hurdle is something you alluded to: Thinking out of the box isn't encouraged.  That's a shame because it is the way to the very best results.
...

From personal experience (ie: not statistically significant), I did ran into more 1st generation immigrants from both Singapore (PISA#2) and Hong Kong (PISA#1) who can't "think out of the box" as compared to non-immigrant kids.  They also tend to be less out-going and more risk-averse.

This has been an observation since at least the 1980s when I first was involved in academia.    US students have not performed as well as Asian country students on standardized achievement tests for some time, yet somehow advances in science -i.e. new discoveries -  have come disproportionately from the US and other Western societies.  In the 1980s it was all about Japan and how their education system was putting out graduates who performed better on tests -  Yet their scientific community seemed to only excel at replicating and refining other's results, not producing a proportional amount of truly original research.  The conclusion of some who have looked at this anomaly has been that it reflects a cultural difference - that is the difference between a society that places value in conformity versus one where rebellion and "outside of the box" thinking is more valued.  The corresponding differences in other creative endeavors (music, etc) are also of note. We see the same trends now in engineering as well don't we? 

[Rick Law]

Statistics is statistics, you can also re-cut the data to see whatever you want to see.  So I agree that the ranking could be misleading.  However, it cannot be an excuse to hold back frequent self-reassessments.  Whether #2 or #42, an honest assessment of "how are we competing in the real-world" should be done and done frequently.

...
I too feel that we are heading in the wrong direction. The problem is how we can get reliable information and knowledge? If we just test, and don't consider the strengts and weaknesses of the test we will probably never find the answer. We know that the politicians act in panic, and the only thing that matters is to be among the top.
...
It is one thing that is important to know about both TIMMS and PISA: The result of the test does not in any way affect the future of the pupil being tested
...

re: "how we can get reliable information and knowledge?"

This is where the world is an unfair world.  With a kid in school, both me and my wife do a lot of research.  A kid without education-focused parent would probably be at a disadvantage.

I learned what are the "reliable" sources.  Many "reliable sources" will have their own biases but I learned to mentally filter the noise out while get to the music.  Much good information can be obtained by combining sources, but then of course I am collecting info and making decisions with the full load of my own biases.

re: "TIMMS and PISA: The result of the test does not in any way affect the future of the pupil being tested"

It may not affect individuals directly but it will affect the nation or region which will end up affecting the individual indirectly.  A company selecting a facility location will not select a place where an educated work force is hard to get.

[tronde]

re: "how we can get reliable information and knowledge?"

This is where the world is an unfair world.  With a kid in school, both me and my wife do a lot of research.  A kid without education-focused parent would probably be at a disadvantage.

I learned what are the "reliable" sources.  Many "reliable sources" will have their own biases but I learned to mentally filter the noise out while get to the music.  Much good information can be obtained by combining sources, but then of course I am collecting info and making decisions with the full load of my own biases.

re: "TIMMS and PISA: The result of the test does not in any way affect the future of the pupil being tested"

It may not affect individuals directly but it will affect the nation or region which will end up affecting the individual indirectly.  A company selecting a facility location will not select a place where an educated work force is hard to get.

Its OK that you or me or any other induviduals can find "reliable sources". But - what about when your politicians cherry-pick results as they find them suitable to their agenda? Is that OK? The mix of education and politics is more like advanced mud wrestling than science, so don't expect them to have your best in mind.

The problem with the fact that the test does not affect the pupils directly is a real problem because the test result will be more or less flawed. Do you think a 12 year old boy tired of school bother much about the nations best 10 years ahead? I have a lot of experience with 16 - 19 year old boys tired of school, and I can tell you they don't give shit about it.

These tests are considered important by most governments, and they use them to change the educational system. Sometimes they panic, and make changes every three year when a new test is published.

The real problem is not that the US or UK or Norway or any country is not on the top. The real problem is that almost all developed nations are performing equally poor (or good if you are an optimist). And as I said; I  do really believe the gap between east and west is smaller than we can read from the results.

The big question for me is how this can happen when we have a lot of different school systems and lot of different cultures but still almost the same performance. What kind of changes to a given school system will prove much better than any other in this environment?

[rstofer]

Its OK that you or me or any other induviduals can find "reliable sources". But - what about when your politicians cherry-pick results as they find them suitable to their agenda? Is that OK? The mix of education and politics is more like advanced mud wrestling than science, so don't expect them to have your best in mind.

With a TRILLION dollars up for grabs in the US alone, you can certainly expect politicians, unions, teachers and everybody else in the process trying to get a large piece of the pie.

The problem with the fact that the test does not affect the pupils directly is a real problem because the test result will be more or less flawed. Do you think a 12 year old boy tired of school bother much about the nations best 10 years ahead? I have a lot of experience with 16 - 19 year old boys tired of school, and I can tell you they don't give shit about it.

These tests are considered important by most governments, and they use them to change the educational system. Sometimes they panic, and make changes every three year when a new test is published.

The real problem is not that the US or UK or Norway or any country is not on the top. The real problem is that almost all developed nations are performing equally poor (or good if you are an optimist). And as I said; I  do really believe the gap between east and west is smaller than we can read from the results.

The big question for me is how this can happen when we have a lot of different school systems and lot of different cultures but still almost the same performance. What kind of changes to a given school system will prove much better than any other in this environment?

You are right about the kids not performing for the tests.  On one test, the entire grade level boycotted the test (whatever it was).  The test wasn't mandatory, it didn't affect their graduation/promotion so they just decided to boycott the process.  I'm just cynical enough to suspect there was a little guidance in that decision.

There is concern that the US is over-testing.  Teachers teach the test (because they are graded on their student's performance) and little else.  That may be ok if the material on the test is correctly chosen.  There has been a lot of printer's ink spilled by newspapers reporting anecdotes related to testing.  Like the problem where the teacher was dinged because little Sally didn't improve year over year because she maxed the test the first time.  Sometimes the stories are so outrageous you just know they are real!

[SeanB]

Well, the dept of Education is celebrating this test.

http://mybroadband.co.za/news/government/189948-anc-government-celebrates-finishing-last-in-maths-and-science-study.html

[rstofer]

Well, the dept of Education is celebrating this test.

http://mybroadband.co.za/news/government/189948-anc-government-celebrates-finishing-last-in-maths-and-science-study.html

You just have to love statistical statements like "most improved".  It's pretty easy to show improvement if you start from the very bottom.

[SeanB]

Sadly they have been digging for a while.........