Author Topic: Terrible Verizon DSL - The Plot Thickens (Read 8562 times)

Cyberdragon · « **on:** March 27, 2018, 11:13:20 pm »

Ah, yes...another DSL horror story...from our wonderful friends at Verizon...

Have you heard one this bad? I've mentioned this on the forum before...but now I've had ENOUGH!

I've always had terrible internet at my mom's house, but it's been absolute trash lately. How bad? We're supposed to get 1MBps...what we actually get is LITERALLY the speed of dial up...as in 56K modem dial-up. Apparently that's all you need to post on this forum...albeit at snail speed.

Most people scream and cry when they do the 56K modem challenge...WELL IMAGINE ~~LIVING~~ SLOWLY SINKING INTO INSANITY WITH IT! I've had enough now!

We have the modem connected properly, it's not the jack or cord (I tried different ones), and we've had the house recently rewired (the phone lines broke). No difference between WIFI and ethernet either, and the modem is less than a year old (we had it replaced because we had issues before).

They ran their stupid little speed test and said we're getting 680KBps, which is what Google says.

These apparently test raw throughput, not data integrity which is the issue. It's clearly evident when trying to do anything that most of that 680KBps is getting absolutely corrupted!

Chrome has a terrible time downloading anything, it drops and stays dead at zero often, only downloading in short bursts of a few KBps. Steam downloads things at about 10 to 60KBps (fluctuating wildly). An "internet health test" (apparently better than those stupid speed tests), says an average of 30KBps download, 10KBps upload! Absolute dial-up level shit!

Some programs can't even handle it and fail to operate (update and download failures).

They are going to increase us from the 1MBps plan to the 1.5MBps plan, but I'm pretty sure that won't make a damn bit of difference at this level of loss.

They said they "ran a test on our lines" and that they are "fine". Are they bullshitting us? Or is something else going on here?

I want them to actually send someone out here to show them the actual problem. Or are their "techs" to stupid to understand data integrity?

helius · « **Reply #1 on:** March 28, 2018, 12:06:40 am »

What do you mean, "the phone lines broke"?

Copper POTS are notoriously unreliable from corrosion and water ingress, limiting the usable life of a local loop to 10 years or less (more if fully underground). Maintenance costs are high and phone companies really want to minimize maintenance. How is your voice call quality?

coppice · « **Reply #2 on:** March 28, 2018, 12:17:03 am »

Is there phone service on the same pair as the DSL service, and is the phone actually used regularly? If you don't use a phone regularly on these lines, corrosion often causes troubles at the joints. If you do use a phone the DC in the loop is generally enough to reseal joints. Even if you don't have a phone, as long as there is DC on the pair you can try shorting the wires for a few bursts. The current is limited at the source, so a short is harmless. That may be enough to reseal bad joints.

Halcyon · « **Reply #3 on:** March 28, 2018, 12:42:11 am »

Quote from: helius on March 28, 2018, 12:06:40 am

Copper POTS are notoriously unreliable from corrosion and water ingress, limiting the usable life of a local loop to 10 years or less (more if fully underground). Maintenance costs are high and phone companies really want to minimize maintenance. How is your voice call quality?

Try and convince the Australian government of that! Apparently our 50 year old copper lines are perfectly suitable for today's broadband needs.

Cyberdragon · « **Reply #4 on:** March 28, 2018, 04:43:23 am »

Quote from: helius on March 28, 2018, 12:06:40 am

What do you mean, "the phone lines broke"?

Copper POTS are notoriously unreliable from corrosion and water ingress, limiting the usable life of a local loop to 10 years or less (more if fully underground). Maintenance costs are high and phone companies really want to minimize maintenance. How is your voice call quality?

It literally broke, the underground line snapped (tree root?). So they went ahead and rewired the whole house with an overhead (a few years ago).

Quote from: Halcyon on March 28, 2018, 12:42:11 am

Quote from: helius on March 28, 2018, 12:06:40 am
Copper POTS are notoriously unreliable from corrosion and water ingress, limiting the usable life of a local loop to 10 years or less (more if fully underground). Maintenance costs are high and phone companies really want to minimize maintenance. How is your voice call quality?

Try and convince the Australian government of that! Apparently our 50 year old copper lines are perfectly suitable for today's broadband needs.

Exactly what I think the problem is. The telephone works fine, my mom uses it often (and for annoyingly long periods

). But I think they're "your lines are fine" bullshit is there lazy excuse for not wanting to rewire the city for proper DSL. The funny thing is, I looked up service stats for the city on Verizon DSL, and 99% get decent speeds. Of course, that's probably subscribed to speed, not actually recieving adiquately.

edpalmer42 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 28, 2018, 05:03:23 am »

What is the transfer rate between computers on the LAN - preferably wired rather than wireless?

Do you have/need DSL filters on each and every device on the phone line other than the modem?

Does your modem have a web page? Some of them allow you to see line parameters like gain, errors, etc. If you could post that info, someone might be able to help interpret the numbers.

Ed

retiredcaps · « **Reply #6 on:** March 28, 2018, 05:05:54 am »

Simple question/suggestion/test.

If you do an extended ping to 8.8.8.8, what results are you seeing (8.8.8.8 is Google's DNS server)? Here is an example from my machine ...

ping 8.8.8.8
PING 8.8.8.8 (8.8.8.

56(84) bytes of data.
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=1 ttl=60 time=31.9 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=2 ttl=60 time=31.9 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=3 ttl=60 time=45.7 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=4 ttl=60 time=41.0 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=5 ttl=60 time=47.6 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=6 ttl=60 time=44.4 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=7 ttl=60 time=55.2 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=8 ttl=60 time=54.3 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=9 ttl=60 time=47.7 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=10 ttl=60 time=34.1 ms
^C
--- 8.8.8.8 ping statistics ---
10 packets transmitted, 10 received, 0% packet loss, time 9012ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 31.910/43.427/55.291/8.118 ms

Cyberdragon · « **Reply #7 on:** March 28, 2018, 05:11:58 am »

Quote from: edpalmer42 on March 28, 2018, 05:03:23 am

What is the transfer rate between computers on the LAN - preferably wired rather than wireless?

Do you have/need DSL filters on each and every device on the phone line other than the modem?

Does your modem have a web page? Some of them allow you to see line parameters like gain, errors, etc. If you could post that info, someone might be able to help interpret the numbers.

Ed

We have filters, and only two phones, one regular and a wireless station, although it was just as bad with only one plugged in.

I could check the LAN transfer rate, but I highly doubt that's the problem.

No idea if there's a webpage.

EDIT: It does, but it's just some useless junk.

EDIT2: it's a D-Link DSL-2750B

Towger · « **Reply #8 on:** March 28, 2018, 05:25:18 am »

I am still in wonderment that you have 1MB and 1.5MB is considered a high speed upgrade!
What speed do neighbours get? Is the problem local to you, or the area.

Cyberdragon · « **Reply #9 on:** March 28, 2018, 05:46:42 am »

Quote from: Towger on March 28, 2018, 05:25:18 am

I am still in wonderment that you have 1MB and 1.5MB is considered a high speed upgrade!
What speed do neighbours get? Is the problem local to you, or the area.

My neighbors...have Comcast...

And bro...I said...I'm getting...

30KBps

Anything would be considered a high speed improvement at this point. I think they should try to get the megabyte through first.

EDIT: My mother is also technically challenged...so trying to convince her that they're screwing with us results in shouting.

I need to get on the phone myself...I won't tolerate a nanosecond of their bullshit.

edpalmer42 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 28, 2018, 06:10:33 am »

Quote from: Cyberdragon on March 28, 2018, 05:11:58 am

Quote from: edpalmer42 on March 28, 2018, 05:03:23 am
What is the transfer rate between computers on the LAN - preferably wired rather than wireless?

Do you have/need DSL filters on each and every device on the phone line other than the modem?

Does your modem have a web page? Some of them allow you to see line parameters like gain, errors, etc. If you could post that info, someone might be able to help interpret the numbers.

Ed

We have filters, and only two phones, one regular and a wireless station, although it was just as bad with only one plugged in.

I could check the LAN transfer rate, but I highly doubt that's the problem.

The problem is often found where you don't expect to find it. After all, if it was where you expected it to be, it wouldn't really be a problem, would it?

These are the kind of tests you have to do to rule out absolutely everything but the line/modem combination.

If your LAN throughput is good, i.e. over 90 Mbps for wired connections, it proves that those computers with those cables are working properly. If they can't get good Internet speeds, then the problem has to be in the line and/or modem.

If your LAN throughput is poor, you then have to repeat the test with the same computers and cables plugged into another switch to prove that those computers with those cables get good throughput on another switch, but not on Verizon's switch.

Quote

No idea if there's a webpage.

EDIT: It does, but it's just some useless junk.

EDIT2: it's a D-Link DSL-2750B

Well, I just googled for some info on the DSL-2750B and under the Status tab there appears to be a Statistics button that includes Errors and Drops on both receive and transmit. There's also an xDSL page that includes things like SNR Margin, Attenuation, Attainable Rate, Actual Rate, HEC Errors, OCD Errors, LCD Errors, Bit Errors, etc. You can even do an ADSL BER Test. Does your modem show anything like that? I know that some ISPs don't let customers access those pages.

Tracking down problems like this is a royal PITA. One bad cable, one loose screw, one loose connector and your throughput tanks. Everything has to be absolutely perfect. And your ISP, whoever it is, doesn't want to roll a truck and spend an hour to find that the problem is in your equipment. That's why they install equipment to allow them to test remotely. In your case, those tests are saying that the ISP's equipment is working properly so you have to do the legwork to prove that's not the case.

Ed

Cyberdragon · « **Reply #11 on:** March 28, 2018, 06:25:28 am »

I usually only have one device connected at a time. And it's always crap. My computer is also new and works fine elsewhere.

I see none of that. And the diagnostic basically just goes "K, green, you's connected, totes peachy o'er here"

Halcyon · « **Reply #12 on:** March 28, 2018, 06:25:39 am »

Some modems will give you signal-to-noise and other stats. If your modem is maxing out the gain (I think they go up to something like 21 dB) and your SNR sucks, it's a line issue. But it depends on how long the cable is between you and the exchange.

This graph will give you some idea of attainable sync speeds.

Cyberdragon · « **Reply #13 on:** March 28, 2018, 06:34:26 am »

I just said...I see absolute basic connection info. Devices conneced, firmware info, the fact that it is actually DSL (no shit Sherlock Modems), a few IPs, and that it's set to 1MBps by the ISP.

And the K, tote's fine meter. This is the diagnostic page...

tautech · « **Reply #14 on:** March 28, 2018, 06:38:19 am »

Your local telco box will be the problem just as ours was for many years.
When they installed ours (yay) and we were able to get DSL instead of only dial up, then we thought yahoo .....for a while.

Turned out it was fitted with SH old HW and DSL #1, only capable of a theoretical 2 MB/s but really as it's copper backhauled over 4km 1.7MB/s only at some ungodly hour with a tail wind and a downhill run.

At this time of day (7-9pm) our connection was bloody useless with only a few 10's of kB/s obtainable and after a couple of years chasing the infrastructure providers right to the top brass we got utterly sick of waiting for upgrades (planned and costed) and pulled the pin on a copper connection and went for a 10km 5GHz microwave link with another ISP and connected our landline phone to it too for less than previous total costs for at least a 10x better service. Now, well so you want to watch some online video......on how many devices at once ?

Whoever is responsible for infrastructure upgrades in your part of the world should be contacted to find out about upgrade rollouts and then maybe it's time to look hard at other alternatives.

Halcyon · « **Reply #15 on:** March 28, 2018, 06:41:31 am »

Wow, that's terrible. It tells you exactly nothing.

I don't suppose you have another modem you can try?

tautech · « **Reply #16 on:** March 28, 2018, 06:49:31 am »

Quote from: Halcyon on March 28, 2018, 06:41:31 am

Wow, that's terrible. It tells you exactly nothing.

I don't suppose you have another modem you can try?

Several modems we used would report 6MB+ connection capability to the shitty Conklin's in the local cabinet but the copper that supplied them wasn't up to the task of providing enough data for the # of end user subscribers.
I'll bet quids this the same problem Cyberdragon has.

Cyberdragon · « **Reply #17 on:** March 28, 2018, 06:58:26 am »

Quote

Whoever is responsible for infrastructure upgrades in your part of the world should be contacted to find out about upgrade rollouts and then maybe it's time to look hard at other alternatives.

I know damn well it's their problem. They're lazy bastards that don't want to fix it.

I seriously hope their shit gets hit with lightning and blows the ass out of everything. Then they'll have to change it.

tautech · « **Reply #18 on:** March 28, 2018, 07:15:51 am »

Quote from: Cyberdragon on March 28, 2018, 06:58:26 am

Quote
Whoever is responsible for infrastructure upgrades in your part of the world should be contacted to find out about upgrade rollouts and then maybe it's time to look hard at other alternatives.

I know damn well it's their problem. They're lazy bastards that don't want to fix it.

I seriously hope their shit gets hit with lightning and blows the ass out of everything. Then they'll have to change it.

You'll find with investigation it's not broken, therefore doesn't need fixing. YES really !
It's not their fault everybody comes home and wants to be on the 'net at the same time !

Their backhaul connection will be working to capacity and the local link to mums house will report good connection capability and unless they've promised 'X#' MB/s to your door there's shit all you can do other than go 3,4 or 5G wireless or LOS microwave like we did.

I've bashed my head against just this wall for at least a couple of years, even petitioning all the locals on the same telco box for all sorts of demographic data to make 'quality' submissions to 'prove' need of an upgrade.
Got nowhere !

4 months of microwave link and now I never care if a file or image looks big, I just click it anyway.

Do yourself and your graying/balding head on this matter a favor and look for a better alternative.
Old saying: wife happy, everybody happy !

BrianHG · « **Reply #19 on:** March 28, 2018, 07:25:36 am »

At my old house, I was on the 8mb dsl, and outside the effective range. When I started, I paid for a 4mb connection. There were some hiccups and on occasion, whenever the phone ringed or I tapped the hangup, connection rate dropped down to a puny speed, though 4mb was still reported by the modem. My only effective solution was to move the modem to the basement where the telco wires came in, wire the modem right onto the wires, and I added 2, not 1, but 2 line filter in series before the phone line fed the rest of the house. It worked like a charm for 2 years and I had the best consistent connection in my neighborhood for 2 years. Then, when the telco offered 6mb, I upgraded and still everything was great. Then, during the last year, the telco upgraded all local 6mb connections to 8mb for free. Holy crap, my performance took such a nose dive, you wouldn't believe. I didn't know why since the 8mb upgrade was done to everyone without my notice. But noticing the modem reporting a 8mb connection a few days later, and realizing this was the cause of the crap, I had to call up my telco's ISP to demand a slow-down, limit my rate to 6mb. It took me a bloody hour to convince the damn tech that this was truly an improvement as he kept reading on his screen that I had an error free 8mb connection and it should be full speed now. Once finally done, everything ran at full speed once more.

Lesson, the techs don't know all the ins and outs of these stupid modems & their head-ends. There is a mix of wire lengths, wire quality, head end modems and home dsl modems with differing qualities and sometimes maxing thing out may read good on the modem tests and specs, but, this doesn't necessarily mean crap in the real world.

If you have an 8mb connection and modem, and you dont want to wire the modem like I said, or try a different DSL modem, I can only recommend asking your ISP to drop your maximum download & upload speed by 1 notch to see if that cleans up the data hiccups. Sadly, you may be in a situation where you need to do a bit of everything while there may not be anything your telco may be able to do to improve anything since they have to work by the 'book'.

tautech · « **Reply #20 on:** March 28, 2018, 07:51:06 am »

To all that find themselves in a similar pickle:

What's your hobby/profession ? Electronics of course !
Learn about DSL technology....there's at least 3 versions here in NZ. A(Asymmetrical)DSL 1, ASDL2 and ADSL2+.
Each use different backhaul technologies from Conklin 2MB/s protocol over copper pairs to ADSL2+ that's commonly connected directly to fiber.
End user performance is directly related to 3 things: backhaul capacity, DSL type and congestion.

How do you find what you have ?
Well you modem can only tell you (only if you have admin access/rights) line attenuation and theoretical connection speed. Sure it might have printed on it it's ADSL2+ or whatever but it doesn't indicate the type or capability of the DSLAM you're connected to !

Get to know the telco guys on the ground, cups of tea or a chat about what they do in the course of a day...what's the local problems....what sort of HW is in the local telco box (think mini exchange).....what's the infrastructure really like, OK or f**ked ? Where's the closest fiber ?
It can go on and on.....like 'my hobby's electronics' .....leading to some 'shop talk' and maybe what theirs is.
You wouldn't have some single strand hookup wire for breadboard jumpers would you mate ? ....and so on.
(roll on my shelf and a pot of Scotchlok telco connectors, thanks very much guys)

They are your/our window into what your local telco has or doesn't as far as 'net connection capability.....use them just like their bosses are using/f**king you !

As Brian points out there are a few things you can do for yourself to gain a few % improvement.
Hardwire filter at the point of entry and a dedicated line direct to your modem.
Make that dedicated wire a CAT5 or better.

At the end of the day your supplier's HW and congestion have the greatest impact on 'net connection speed providing you have your 'house in order'.

Cyberdragon · « **Reply #21 on:** March 28, 2018, 07:57:01 am »

Quote from: tautech on March 28, 2018, 07:15:51 am

Quote from: Cyberdragon on March 28, 2018, 06:58:26 am
Quote
Whoever is responsible for infrastructure upgrades in your part of the world should be contacted to find out about upgrade rollouts and then maybe it's time to look hard at other alternatives.

I know damn well it's their problem. They're lazy bastards that don't want to fix it.

I seriously hope their shit gets hit with lightning and blows the ass out of everything. Then they'll have to change it.
You'll find with investigation it's not broken, therefore doesn't need fixing. YES really !
It's not their fault everybody comes home and wants to be on the 'net at the same time !

Their backhaul connection will be working to capacity and the local link to mums house will report good connection capability and unless they've promised 'X#' MB/s to your door there's shit all you can do other than go 3,4 or 5G wireless or LOS microwave like we did.

I've bashed my head against just this wall for at least a couple of years, even petitioning all the locals on the same telco box for all sorts of demographic data to make 'quality' submissions to 'prove' need of an upgrade.
Got nowhere !
4 months of microwave link and now I never care if a file or image looks big, I just click it anyway.

Do yourself and your graying/balding head on this matter a favor and look for a better alternative.
Old saying: wife happy, everybody happy !

Nobody's on the internet at 4am though...still garbage as always.

Comcast says we have to get a damn bundle...which means buying new cellphones.

Assuming we can get around that, we can't run a new cable line for internet either since it's a rental. Any chance of getting a box that does cable TV and internet through one connection?

tautech · « **Reply #22 on:** March 28, 2018, 08:18:42 am »

Cyberdragon
I look back now and wonder why it took me so long to take the leap....a few things. Our copper was pretty bad every winter as it was installed some 50 years back when I was at primary school BUT it was 'upgraded' read; all faults found and fixed, well very nearly all. Techs told me my old 'drycore' copper was preferable for signal strength as it was a heavier gauge the the newer grease filled cable (we have 2 going past our door) so with that in mind and hope that an upgrade would go ahead we waited....and waited....and waited.

But then one day our landline died BUT the 'net still worked

Some ham fisted tech had been in a pillar or our local box and knocked off one of our wires for our ph/'net DSL pair and bugger me only the phone was affected, not so much the 'net. I can't give any quantitative % of now much it affected the 'net but it was bugger all. Techs told me that DSL would work with 'one leg down'.

Many of the 'cable' TV suppliers have 'net subscription capabilities these days and there's a few in NZ, Netflix probably the most popular. The wife has a sub but I don't bother as with a decent connection now you can find most things online and just stream them......from a proxy server if necessary.

BrianHG · « **Reply #23 on:** March 28, 2018, 08:21:13 am »

If you have access to the phone line entry into your house, the only test I can think of is do a quick wiring of the modem to the wires entering the house & disconnect the rest of the house temporarily, since you are up at 4am, you can try this...

If there is an improvement, upgrading from 1mb to 1.5mb will actually make things worse (unless you are changing modems and changing modulation types) as your problem is wiring load&noise.

If the direct wire test truly makes a difference, I'm afraid your telco/ISP will never be able to help you unless you once again change ASDL format/modem, and/or, keep you modem wired at the line coming into your house and take your line filters & place them there before the phone line proceeds to the rest of your house.

And, those single block line filter transformers designed to be hand wired like this actually perform worse than using 2 small black box filters which are designed to go inbetween the phone wall jack and the phone. I don't know why, but, when my line was services and the telco put in a professional box, problems came back & I disconnected it and re-wired my 2 cheapo tiny boxes.

fourtytwo42 · « **Reply #24 on:** March 28, 2018, 09:30:04 am »

IMOP there is only one way to deal with persistant DSL problems and thats equip yourself with a modem that supports diagnostic tools like DSLstats http://dslstats.me.uk/ this has allowed me to prove problems to my ISP such that I have the highest linespeed by far in our village

Unfortunatly many modems simply have a green dslok led or similar that is completely an utterly useless!!

Enclosed are some example plots that have helped me diagnose my problems.

BTW my modem is a W8960 with Broadcom chipset but only the older models firmware support Telnet access


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Author Topic: Terrible Verizon DSL - The Plot Thickens (Read 8562 times)

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