Tequipment international order requirements :o

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

For completeness I'll finish off the saga of my Fluke 1587 from Tequipment.
Last week I finally got my Fluke 1587 via Tequipment and comGateway. All there, all working well packed, via comGateWay cost an extra $66 net. But it is better than $1100 Aus.

It was still in the US when Paypay said that my dispute with Tequipment was finished, I had to escalate it to a claim or relinquish any dispute I had.
So I asked Paypal and Tequipment for a small extension. 10 days. But didn't receive an answer. Apart from the robot status responses that Paypal sends.
So on the last day I escalated to a claim, by this time it was in Sydney. My claim was that I wanted to inspect the goods and that Tequipment still owed me $32.99 by their calculations.
Anyway the day before my parcel arrived Paypal cancelled my claim in the form of another robot letter that said

Dear HFM,

We have concluded our investigation into your Buyer Claim. We regret to
inform you that we were unable to resolve this case because the complaint
was incomplete, issued incorrectly or outside the bounds of coverage as
defined in our User Agreement. As a result, we have not taken any action at
this time. Please be assured that this case has been noted in the seller's
record for future reference.

This is after I sent them details of Tequipment saying they would pay me the money after I closed the issue, not before, and text from Paypay that says you shouldn't close and issue unless you are satisfied.
I don't think that they even read the dialogue.

Anyway I wanted to test the resolution system and it failed.
It managed to also fail the Turing test at the same time.

So I crawled back to Tequipment and asked for the refund and they gave it to me straight away.

To wrap it up Tequipments website is a bit archaic. So check if they have the distribution rights before you send them any money. They did communicate with me fairly promptly and did what they said they would do throughout.

Paypal is probably just a front for the Cybermen.
 

[alm]

I don't think that they even read the dialogue.

Anyway I wanted to test the resolution system and it failed.
It managed to also fail the Turing test at the same time.

I wonder if failing the Turing test is a hiring requirement for Paypal customer service employees. I don't understand why people prefer Paypal to real credit card processors. Paypal customer service sucks from both the buyer and seller perspective. The only way to get a good experience is pray the transaction goes smoothly or that your problem exactly matches the Paypal conflict resolution scripts.

[tequipment]

Hello.  I thought I would comment.  Paypal does a pretty good job of screening fraud.  When you log in from an IP they do a bit of testing to see who you are and if they dont recognize you often they will flag the transaction.  On the credit card front we get many orders a DAY!! that are fraud... well if we mess up 1 out of 500.. poof there goes a few k down the drain.  So its the lesser of two evils sometimes.

I am always open to new ways to easily verify customers.  In fact I would love to hear it. We are straight forward here.  I am always looking for feedback. We are only as good as our ideas.  As for the website being archaic stay turned. 

Thanks
Evan Cirelli

[Hypernova]

Hello.  I thought I would comment.  Paypal does a pretty good job of screening fraud.  When you log in from an IP they do a bit of testing to see who you are and if they dont recognize you often they will flag the transaction.  On the credit card front we get many orders a DAY!! that are fraud... well if we mess up 1 out of 500.. poof there goes a few k down the drain.  So its the lesser of two evils sometimes.

I am always open to new ways to easily verify customers.  In fact I would love to hear it. We are straight forward here.  I am always looking for feedback. We are only as good as our ideas.  As for the website being archaic stay turned. 

Thanks
Evan Cirelli

Setup a skype call so you can talk to customers and have him show you the CC card instead of mailing a pic would be an idea. Would also be a chance to add more human touch that online stores tend to lack. Most fraudsters are a shy bunch.

And get rid of paper copy CC statement requirements since many these days don't have them. I had CC from three banks here and none have paper statements. Just keep the requirement to any statement with dude's name and address.

The point of this exercise to make sure CC/dude/address are all linked so what the piece of paper is shouldn't matter that much.

[tequipment]

Interesting.   My skype ID is tequipment1.  We all use skype.  I have a camera system where we can do live demos.  Maybe we should bring that back.

As for the card via skype.  Ive received statements for cards with 1 number different..  for a different card that was ordered.. its crazy.  As much as I would want to I dont think I could do that.  As for the camera.. yeah we could do that.  I had an option to do live chat with a cam but I thought it might be a problem with some out of control people.. you know 1 person can make a bad situation.. especially when we have 45 people here.

I like the idea of a human approach to sales and support.  Let me think about that.  I think we can work on that for sure!
Any more ideas?
Thanks
Evan

[Bored@Work]

Hello.  I thought I would comment.

Do you really want to go through all the discussion again?

Paypal does a pretty good job of screening fraud.  When you log in from an IP they do a bit of testing to see who you are and if they dont recognize you often they will flag the transaction.  On the credit card front we get many orders a DAY!! that are fraud... well if we mess up 1 out of 500.. poof there goes a few k down the drain.  So its the lesser of two evils sometimes.

So you really think your potential foreign customers are criminals? Guilty until proven innocent. Why don't you do the obvious then, and stop marketing and selling internationally if it is too difficult and risky for you?

And regarding what a user reported about your PayPal dispute behaviour, I don't think it is acceptable to coerce people into withdrawing a PayPal complaint, giving up their rights.

[tequipment]

What is your order number?  I will take care of it.  But normally I would say to add the address in paypal.  Verify it there so you can use it when you need to then there are no issues.

Evan

[Lightages]

Evan. I brought this up in the start of this thread. I cannot send you any paper copies of something I don't get copies myself. I only get electronic statements. Anyone can fake a paper copy so it is really a waste of time.

I tried buying from you a number of times and I was refused because I refused to do something I didn't want to, that is give you my credit card information that I as a credit card holder agreed to not give away or lose MY protection against fraud. I also could not give you this as I could not get it myself.

When I was in my country of financial record and tried to buy from your company I called an verified that the item would be delivered before I had to leave for Chile again. A few days before the end of my stay I called and the item had not even been shipped yet. I cancelled the order. I am now dealing with another company because they worked with me to get a way to deliver to my address in Chile without me breaking my agreement with my credit issuer.

I would be very happy to deal with your company but all I got was road blocks. Trust goes both ways and when a company assumes I am the criminal and they are to be trusted no matter what, well.....

[Corporate666]

I can't understand people whining about this... if this is the way TE Equipment wants to do business, but you don't like it.. then just either accept that these are their conditions, or buy somewhere else.

Some folks are overly worried about sending their credit card info by email.  Those people do not realize that it is the SELLER who takes 100% of the risk in a credit card transaction.  If the buyer just calls the bank and says they never got the product, the bank immediately takes all of the money from the seller, and charges the seller a fee to process the dispute.  If the seller wins, he gets most of the money back, after 2-3 months.  If he does not win, then the money - and product - is gone forever.

For those that are not familiar with the chargeback process, you get a letter telling you the customer is disputing the charge.  Generally, you are not allowed to contact the customer.  The bank will ask for a copy of the order with signature, copy of the tracking number, proof of delivery with signature, etc.  For online sales, you almost never have a signed order, nor do you have a signature upon delivery.  For international orders, you often don't even have confirmation it was delivered at all.  And international customers almost always place the blame for everything on the seller.  They will choose the cheapest shipping option, then complain to the seller that it's taking too long.  Or they will choose a non-trackable shipping option to save money, but threaten to dispute the charge if the items aren't in their hands in 2 weeks.  If you are selling something for $20 that cost you $5, then you can afford to lose money on the occasional order.  If you are selling $1,000 pieces of equipment where your profit is $50, then you can't. 

And make no mistake... there are websites and groups out there where scammers will talk about companies they were able to scam.  So if someone discovers that TE (or some other supplier) will send a package without tracking to a far away country without requiring additional information... then someone will post that on a website where scammers hang out and TE can expect 100 orders the next day - all scams.

At the end of the day, the problem is that people tend to be cheap and want their cake and to eat it too.  They want express shipping at an economy price, and they don't want to take any risk to make that happen. 

So for buyers who are complaining, just use any of the dozens of forwarding services... or use PayPal, or add the forwarding service address as a ship-to address with your credit card bank, or pay extra for FedEx International Economy and get your 10 kilo package with full tracking in 3-5 days for $350 in shipping fees.

[Lightages]

I understand that a company needs to protect its profits and security. I have no problem with that. I also have the right to protect mine and the first time I deal a company is the same concern for me. I tried to deal with them and it didn't work. I made the problem public just like the scammers would make this public. My motive was to save the time others on this forum of trying to buy from Tequiment if they were in a similar situation. It is up to Tequipment to do something to make dealings with people who have my concerns or not. They appear to be trying to make some changes so I am willing to change too?

How can sharing information ever be whining? If they want to advertise internationally, they shouldn't treat international customers any different than the potential scamming customers in the US, IMHO. It was their choice to sponsor Dave's international blog.....

[Bored@Work]

I can't understand people whining about this...

This is not whining. You apparently didn't notice hat tequipment decided to dig up that almost one year old thread. Tequipment, not we. You apparently didn't notice that tequipment tries to convince us foreigners to fork money over, but still treats us as if we are criminals should we dare to try. Tequipment is currently all over the forum, posting to whatever instrument thread where they think they can generate some business.

if this is the way TE Equipment wants to do business, but you don't like it.. then just either accept that these are their conditions, or buy somewhere else.

Then they should stop go on our tits. Yes, we got it, they don't want our business. We already got it one year ago. So why on earth do they again crawl out of their hole insulting us? Leave us alone, we got it.

This is what I told them a year ago:

I noticed that some time ago, too, when I considered ordering from them. I took my business elsewhere. In my experience, companies doing things like this are usually not terribly interested in getting my business anyhow, so going elsewhere is a win-win situation for both. We are not in the 90th any more, and if they are really interested in international business they should try to find a credit card processor who is prepared to properly validate cards used for online purchases.

One year later the above is still valid for me. One year later they still haven't solved their (their, not our) problem. They still treat international credit card users a badly. They still request paperwork many people just don't have, and some people consider a privacy intrusion.

So again, why did they decide to go on our tits again? One year ago they got told not to bother unless they fixed their problem.

Oh, and thank you for your pointless credit card lecture. Hint, things are not the same all over the world.

[Corporate666]

This is not whining. You apparently didn't notice hat tequipment decided to dig up that almost one year old thread. Tequipment, not we. You apparently didn't notice that tequipment tries to convince us foreigners to fork money over, but still treats us as if we are criminals should we dare to try. Tequipment is currently all over the forum, posting to whatever instrument thread where they think they can generate some business.

I'm not sure what the age of the thread has to do with anything - IMO it's been whining from the beginning.  It seems TE's order terms are pretty clearly laid out.  The good news is that you are free not to buy from them.  There is a pizza shop near me that only takes credit cards if you pick up your food.  So I choose not to buy pizza there.  But I don't stop in every day on my way home to tell them that I think their policy sucks and I'm angry they consider me a criminal and I won't be buying pizza there.  I just shop elsewhere.

Then they should stop go on our tits. Yes, we got it, they don't want our business. We already got it one year ago. So why on earth do they again crawl out of their hole insulting us? Leave us alone, we got it.

This is what I told them a year ago:

I noticed that some time ago, too, when I considered ordering from them. I took my business elsewhere. In my experience, companies doing things like this are usually not terribly interested in getting my business anyhow, so going elsewhere is a win-win situation for both. We are not in the 90th any more, and if they are really interested in international business they should try to find a credit card processor who is prepared to properly validate cards used for online purchases.

One year later the above is still valid for me. One year later they still haven't solved their (their, not our) problem. They still treat international credit card users a badly. They still request paperwork many people just don't have, and some people consider a privacy intrusion.

So again, why did they decide to go on our tits again? One year ago they got told not to bother unless they fixed their problem.

Ahh, sorry, I didn't realize Dave had appointed you the designated forum spokesman 

Oh, and thank you for your pointless credit card lecture. Hint, things are not the same all over the world.

Actually they aren't... they are the same rules for everyone.  And TE is based in the USA, so the same rules I deal with are the only ones that matter.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

Ahh, sorry, I didn't realize Dave had appointed you the designated forum spokesman 

Oh, and thank you for your pointless credit card lecture. Hint, things are not the same all over the world.

Actually they aren't... they are the same rules for everyone.  And TE is based in the USA, so the same rules I deal with are the only ones that matter.

Dont feed the troll.

[Corporate666]

Ahh, sorry, I didn't realize Dave had appointed you the designated forum spokesman 

Oh, and thank you for your pointless credit card lecture. Hint, things are not the same all over the world.

Actually they aren't... they are the same rules for everyone.  And TE is based in the USA, so the same rules I deal with are the only ones that matter.

Dont feed the troll.

Who are you accusing of being a troll?  Whether it's me or Bored, everyone is free to speak their mind without childish name calling.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

Corporate666, I was accusing you of trolling, but I didn't realise until now that it was ambiguous.

It sounded to me like you were trolling, but if you weren't then sorry for the offence.

If you were not trolling then I think it is time for you to realise that the rules are not the same for everyone, whether it is with TE, Agilent, Fluke, EBay or Citigroup.

And TE is based in the USA, so the same rules I deal with are the only ones that matter.

I am not really sure what you meant by this, but it did seem to be trolling too.

[Tepe]

Actually they aren't... they are the same rules for everyone.  And TE is based in the USA, so the same rules I deal with are the only ones that matter.

The rules for the cards are not the same everywhere, and that may even include the possibility of getting a chargeback, a printed credit card statement, etc., etc. Amazingly, places even exist where the seller is guaranteed to get his money and you can pay online without having to scan papers you don't have.

[tequipment]

International orders require extra fraud screening, lots of extra paperwork, and a host of other issues.  So yes we have rules.  Im listening if you have ideas but what I sometimes hear is we should just process orders blindly then I would lose a lot of money for so many people unfortunately try to pass fraudulent orders off internationally.

As for generating business, I am not all over this forum.  I am designing several things and was looking back on a post to see what someone said. 

We have had orders with credit card copies that come back fraud.  So yes we have to screen orders.  And yes we are always open to ideas.  Constructive ones.  I like to understand so I can evolve and grow.  In 10 years we have gone from 4 people to 48.  I am always willing to learn something new and improve. 

Thanks
Evan Cirelli

TEquipment.NET

[M. András]

shipping option with tracking and signature upon arrival to the destination, then that way you can prove they got the goods, ups has it fedex too, and i guess all the major freight companies

[FJV]

Had to include a copy of a credit card statement for an order, however someone I know and can trust does accounting.

He made copy of a credit card statement with only the information they need and the rest he erased, as it was "none of their business".
After this the order went through without any problem.

So maybe asking what information they need and whether you can use a copy of a credit card statement with only that information and all other information erased is an option.

[Lightages]

So maybe asking what information they need and whether you can use a copy of a credit card statement with only that information and all other information erased is an option.

Except I do not get a paper copy of my statement. And anything that can be altered and then accepted can also be altered falsely or faked entirely and accepted.

[M. András]

same with digital formats even signed ones

[Corporate666]

Corporate666, I was accusing you of trolling, but I didn't realise until now that it was ambiguous.

It sounded to me like you were trolling, but if you weren't then sorry for the offence.

If you were not trolling then I think it is time for you to realise that the rules are not the same for everyone, whether it is with TE, Agilent, Fluke, EBay or Citigroup.

And TE is based in the USA, so the same rules I deal with are the only ones that matter.

I am not really sure what you meant by this, but it did seem to be trolling too.

I don't see how giving the other side is "trolling"?  But no problem, I'm not offended.  Many customers are not aware of how it works for the business - and I doubt TE wants to get into that, so I pointed out how the other side of the coin so that people could understand perhaps why TE has these policies in place. 

As for "the rules in the USA are the only ones that matter", I mean that the rules and restrictions and regulations regarding credit cards are subject to USA rules when the company charging the card is in the USA.  As a USA seller, if I take a credit card from Malaysia, I am not subject to Malaysian law on the transaction, but rather US law.  Many people don't realize how the whole credit card process works on the back end, but it is really one-sided in favor of the consumer.  Most sellers get burned a few times before they feel the need to take steps to protect themselves.

[Corporate666]

Actually they aren't... they are the same rules for everyone.  And TE is based in the USA, so the same rules I deal with are the only ones that matter.

The rules for the cards are not the same everywhere, and that may even include the possibility of getting a chargeback, a printed credit card statement, etc., etc. Amazingly, places even exist where the seller is guaranteed to get his money and you can pay online without having to scan papers you don't have.

Each country may have specific regulations on banks regarding credit cards, but that's not what I am referring to.  I'm talking about the "VISA network" regulations that merchants are bound by.  There are some small differences in different parts of the world (for example, in Latin America and Asia, automatic installment payments are supported - whereas in Europe and the USA they are not).  But in general, the rules a merchant must abide by - their agreement with Visa/MasterCard/AMEX/Discover is the same for a merchant in Japan or one in the USA or one in France - and that includes the rules and mechanisms that control chargebacks.  And in regards to chargebacks, there is nowhere that the merchant is guaranteed to get payment for all charges - because a major part of the VISA/MC/AMEX/Discover network is the chargeback process.  You can't be a merchant accepting those cards without agreeing to the dispute process.

[Tepe]

But in general, the rules a merchant must abide by - their agreement with Visa/MasterCard/AMEX/Discover is the same for a merchant in Japan or one in the USA or one in France - and that includes the rules and mechanisms that control chargebacks.

Visa/MasterCard/AMEX/Discover are as bound by the laws of the countries they operate in as everybody else. The US is but a small part of the world.

[Wuerstchenhund]

You will probably find its part of their record keeping requirements with their VISA/MasterCard payment processor.

Hardly, as it violates the PCI-DSS standard which every merchant has to comply with.

It's not just Tequipment, it's most businesses that ship internationally.

It's most American businesses that do stuff like this. I order quite a lot of stuff globally, and so far it's only been US merchants that came up with that nonsense.

Honestly, I don't see the big deal.

Of couse not, unless your credit card gets abused and your CC provider finds out that you did something stupid like sending pictures of both sides of your credit card and maybe even a scan of your CC statement via unencrypted email. Most CC providers explicity prohibit taking copies of your CC card anyways, so you would be violating those terms, too.

Your thinking is one of the reason CC fraud is so common.

In many cases you are lucky they are even willing to ship overseas, with all the extra overhead for customs forms, export restrictions, and whatever. Do you really think they enjoy having to manually process documentation for international orders if they didn't have to?

Sorry but that's stupid. If a reseller is overwhelmed by filling out a simple form which takes less than 5mins then he simply should not offer his stuff aborad, period. At the end of the day, it's the seller who should be thankful when customers carry their business to him and not to one of the many competitors, not the other way around.