What would you do with 1500W of solar panels (in Australia)

[DTJ]

A half hypothetical question - what would you do with 1.5kW of solar panels in good condition?

They are currently part of a grid connect system that might be decommissioned, due to some standards changes they cannot be installed (roof mounted) in another grid connect system. I think sticking with a 12/24Vdc system gets around any legal issues regarding mains wiring etc.


Some options:

1) Flog them off to camper van and 4WD'ers to mount on their roofs for 12/24V systems.

2) Rig them up for supplying a DC boost element fitted to the solar hot water system (messy and has issues i.e. can't boost at night).

3) Rig up a DC system for heating the house in winter - heating element + fan + controller.

4) Something else?

[gildasd]

A slow electric chair that only works at noon on a sunny day? Get Abbott to fund it, then blow the cash on marching powder and other basic perversions.

[ICR9000]

Get some batteries to start with hook em up and let them keep the charge up on them.
Then build from there with more batteries for a rainy day.  ( week )  ( cyclone ) 

[fourtytwo42]

2) Rig them up for supplying a DC boost element fitted to the solar hot water system (messy and has issues i.e. can't boost at night).

You don't say what voltage you could get out of the whole string but I use a 1Kw array (4 x 60cell panels) to generate all my hot water here in the UK (brrrr) so you should have no problems in Aus. Water is cooler in morning but providing you have a well insulated tank still around 55C in my case from a max of 65C in the day.
Whats messy ? I just use my existing 3Kw/240V heater fitted in the tank, no plumbing at all

[DTJ]

Get some batteries to start with hook em up and let them keep the charge up on them.
Then build from there with more batteries for a rainy day.  ( week )  ( cyclone ) 

Batteries are $$$ and I'm a tight wad!

2) Rig them up for supplying a DC boost element fitted to the solar hot water system (messy and has issues i.e. can't boost at night).

You don't say what voltage you could get out of the whole string but I use a 1Kw array (4 x 60cell panels) to generate all my hot water here in the UK (brrrr) so you should have no problems in Aus. Water is cooler in morning but providing you have a well insulated tank still around 55C in my case from a max of 65C in the day.
Whats messy ? I just use my existing 3Kw/240V heater fitted in the tank, no plumbing at all

That's interesting. They are 27 cell panels. I thought it might get messy as some temp regulation would be needed (our HWS is electric boosted solar). There's a bi-metal switch that opens if the electric booster pushes the temp too high. I'm not sure the switch would like switching a couple of hundred volts DC @ 5A or whatever.

Using them that way would be a problem for us as we use a lot of hot water at night (4 person household) and need the tank boosted overnight.

[technix]

You can hunt for UPS systems that accepts both solar panels and grid power as battery charging sources. Those systems cannot feed energy back the grid. This way the product of those panels are not tied to the grid, yet your family circuit can still use it. If it produces enough energy and you have a large enough battery capacity you can even go off grid with this.

Speaking of off grid, if your area gets enough rain you can collect and filter for drinking. This way your water supply is also off grid. For the gas you can switch to electric cooking if you have adequate power capacity, and solar water heating for showers. This can result in your home go entirely off grid, and cease emitting CO2.

[David Hess]

Independently mount them free standing and use a plug-in grid tie inverter.  Since it plugs in, it is a temporary installation.  At least that is what we do in the states when code enforcement prevents permanent installation.

[ICR9000]

Yep that,s what I was getting at. 
With all that hardware who would want and need the grid in Australian Sunlight. lol 

[technix]

Yep that,s what I was getting at. 
With all that hardware who would want and need the grid in Australian Sunlight. lol 

Go off grid, stop producing CO2, and try stopping the Earth from getting even warmer than we like.

[fourtytwo42]

2) Rig them up for supplying a DC boost element fitted to the solar hot water system (messy and has issues i.e. can't boost at night).

You don't say what voltage you could get out of the whole string but I use a 1Kw array (4 x 60cell panels) to generate all my hot water here in the UK (brrrr) so you should have no problems in Aus. Water is cooler in morning but providing you have a well insulated tank still around 55C in my case from a max of 65C in the day.
Whats messy ? I just use my existing 3Kw/240V heater fitted in the tank, no plumbing at all

That's interesting. They are 27 cell panels. I thought it might get messy as some temp regulation would be needed (our HWS is electric boosted solar). There's a bi-metal switch that opens if the electric booster pushes the temp too high. I'm not sure the switch would like switching a couple of hundred volts DC @ 5A or whatever.

Using them that way would be a problem for us as we use a lot of hot water at night (4 person household) and need the tank boosted overnight.

Ahh sort of 12V/120W ok, well your right about the thermostat switch and with only ~42V MPP you would only get ~90W from a standard 240V heater if directly connected. I solve both problems using a custom boost converter, I don't know if there are suitable commercial products, if not others suggestions of a plug in gti may be better for you (although buyer beware of the cheap Ch*n*se fake ones).
Also not sure about the boost at night issue, does it get dark real early there or something or perhaps you have no insulation on your store!
Anyway why isn't this thread in renewables for others to find/comment on ?

[Red Squirrel]

You could probably run part of your house off them, maybe setup a separate electrical system with some "solar" outlets.  Could power stuff like TV and other electronics that arn't super important but nice to have.   

What exactly are the regulations that stopped them from being allowed to be used though?  Seems if they can't be used they might not be of a use for anyone in that particular jurisdiction.  Or are they legally usable at a smaller scale? 

[DTJ]

You could probably run part of your house off them, maybe setup a separate electrical system with some "solar" outlets.  Could power stuff like TV and other electronics that arn't super important but nice to have.   

What exactly are the regulations that stopped them from being allowed to be used though?  Seems if they can't be used they might not be of a use for anyone in that particular jurisdiction.  Or are they legally usable at a smaller scale?

I'd have legal issues doing that - fixed mains wiring etc.

You could probably run part of your house off them, maybe setup a separate electrical system with some "solar" outlets.  Could power stuff like TV and other electronics that arn't super important but nice to have.   

What exactly are the regulations that stopped them from being allowed to be used though?  Seems if they can't be used they might not be of a use for anyone in that particular jurisdiction.  Or are they legally usable at a smaller scale? 

From what I can tell in Australia there has been a few standards changes in regard to solar panels & inverters. If the panels are not listed on current approved items list then you cannot relocate, re-use or add to that panel array. I think it relates to fire safety even though they are pretty much all glass and aluminium. I believe they can be re-used if ground mounted. I think the restrictions only apply if they are hooked up for mains generation - I'm not sure they could police a low voltage DC installation.

[DTJ]

Ahh sort of 12V/120W ok, well your right about the thermostat switch and with only ~42V MPP you would only get ~90W from a standard 240V heater if directly connected. I solve both problems using a custom boost converter, I don't know if there are suitable commercial products, if not others suggestions of a plug in gti may be better for you (although buyer beware of the cheap Ch*n*se fake ones).
Also not sure about the boost at night issue, does it get dark real early there or something or perhaps you have no insulation on your store!
Anyway why isn't this thread in renewables for others to find/comment on ?

It's heading into winter here so it gets dark around 5:30pm. Solar output drops very quickly after 4:00pm.
The HWS insulation is ok, the problem is 4 people showering and using hot water every evening.



Re posting in the renewables section:Oooops - it will be next time!

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

I'm almost certain they are still legal.
But you can't obtain any subsidy for them from the CEFC.

If you keep them at Extra Low Voltage it will be legal for you to wire them. (<120v) dc. nominal.

I would use them as thermal heating like https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/solar-pv-is-now-the-most-cost-efective-energy-source/
water or slab.

or sell them on gumtree.

[DTJ]

What regulatory thing makes them illegal? If it's something regarding substandard insulation level, then you can also retrofit an extra layer of DC/DC converter that's UL (or whatever AU counterpart) certified, unless your local law is so stupid that it practically drives engineers nuts.

I don't know exactly but I've been told its something to do with fire standards and the panels. They are "safe" to continue using but you can't re-install them or add more panels to an array. As a consequence I'm looking at having to trash a 1500W system and put a new larger system in rather than just adding panels to what I have.

Bureaucracy gone mad.

[DTJ]

I'm almost certain they are still legal.
But you can't obtain any subsidy for them from the CEFC.

If you keep them at Extra Low Voltage it will be legal for you to wire them. (<120v) dc. nominal.

I would use them as thermal heating like https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/solar-pv-is-now-the-most-cost-efective-energy-source/
water or slab.

or sell them on gumtree.

Reading on whirlpool.com it seems panels cannot legally be removed and refitted to a roof unless they are on a list of approved panels. My panels are only 5 years old but not on the list.  It seems to be a quite widespread issue.

I like the heating idea - it would be nice to have free heating in winter.

Scumtree is starting to look more likely.............

[DTJ]

Independently mount them free standing and use a plug-in grid tie inverter.  Since it plugs in, it is a temporary installation.  At least that is what we do in the states when code enforcement prevents permanent installation.

I had not heard of plug in grid tie inverters. I had a quick look and it seems they are not legal in Australia (yet??).

[DTJ]

How about something ambitious? Such as using the panel array to power your house, as well to charge a battery bank that powers your house at night. Then use grid power only to fill in the gap on a bad weather day, but never feed back to the grid?
If you can prove that your system never dumps energy to grid, they have no reason to get you into any trouble. The downside is you need to build your own energy storage infrastructure.

A battery system would be nice but I don't have the dollars, time or inclination to go that way just yet.

The government has it tied up neatly here if it's electrically connected to fixed mains wiring then they have the last say on if its legal.


Supposedly we cannot even do DIY Ethernet cable installations in our own homes here in Australia.

[TerraHertz]

Over-regulation in Australia has long been past the point where the only sane thing to do is to quietly ignore it.

Your problem seems to be, you want to have a larger solar array, but can't extend your existing array due to red-tape bullshit. Right?

So... remove the existing panels. Get a new system installed that meets regulations, and the inverter has 'capacity to expand in future.' Check that expansion capacity would suit some panels with V,I specs that just happen to match your old ones.

Then once the legions of inspectors have left, put your old panels back up there and wire them into the inverter yourself.

Btw, I'm very interested to see some actual references for these 'rule changes'. Can you post some links, so I don't have to start cold searching, please?

I wonder if it may have anything to do with what I found in some old second hand panels? See here: http://everist.org/NobLog/20160504_solar_panels_vs_emp.htm
Long story short, the cell reverse protection diodes, if semi-shorted by lightning, can become solar-powered resistors and on sunny days potentially set fire to stuff.

Here's an alternative idea, if you're uncomfortable with red-tape cutting. You could dispose of the 'unapproved' panels by giving them to me. I'm collecting panels, for when I move out of the city in a few years. My current property though large,  is mostly tree-shaded. So solar panels are no use here. But I do have plenty of room to store them.

Supposedly we cannot even do DIY Ethernet cable installations in our own homes here in Australia.

You're obviously spending far too much time listening to red-tape retards. And contractors with high hourly rates.

[Halcyon]

Supposedly we cannot even do DIY Ethernet cable installations in our own homes here in Australia.

You're obviously spending far too much time listening to red-tape retards. And contractors with high hourly rates.

Agreed, provided you know what you're doing.

After NBN Co's "trained" and accredited contractors came and installed the copper lead-in from the street, I ended up having to replace the socket and doing it properly myself because they screwed it up.

I've probably wired more sockets, terminated more patch panels and run more twisted pair cable than any of the other jokers who came to my place.

[David Hess]

Independently mount them free standing and use a plug-in grid tie inverter.  Since it plugs in, it is a temporary installation.  At least that is what we do in the states when code enforcement prevents permanent installation.

I had not heard of plug in grid tie inverters. I had a quick look and it seems they are not legal in Australia (yet??).

I would not necessarily use a grid tie inverter that was specifically designed for plug-in operation; there are a lot of these coming out of China which are of questionable quality.  But a unit which is otherwise approved for use in your area can also be used this way.  If I were doing this, I would build a cart and install an outlet for it.

[Red Squirrel]

How about something ambitious? Such as using the panel array to power your house, as well to charge a battery bank that powers your house at night. Then use grid power only to fill in the gap on a bad weather day, but never feed back to the grid?
If you can prove that your system never dumps energy to grid, they have no reason to get you into any trouble. The downside is you need to build your own energy storage infrastructure.

A battery system would be nice but I don't have the dollars, time or inclination to go that way just yet.

The government has it tied up neatly here if it's electrically connected to fixed mains wiring then they have the last say on if its legal.


Supposedly we cannot even do DIY Ethernet cable installations in our own homes here in Australia.

Wow that's ridiculous.  This kinda stuff actually pisses me off, because other governments see this and are like "good idea, we should do that here too!".    So many restrictions now days about what we can do on our own property.  This is not what our ancestors fought for.   Where I live this kind of stuff is not as strict, but if you really read into it, there's still lot of restrictions.  Technically you're not suppose to do your own electrical unless it's inspected etc.  Thankfully they don't really enforce any of that though.

Suppose one option might be to use solar to power something completely separate from the house, like a shed.  Assuming that's not illegal too. 

[DTJ]

Your problem seems to be, you want to have a larger solar array, but can't extend your existing array due to red-tape bullshit. Right?

So... remove the existing panels. Get a new system installed that meets regulations, and the inverter has 'capacity to expand in future.' Check that expansion capacity would suit some panels with V,I specs that just happen to match your old ones.

Then once the legions of inspectors have left, put your old panels back up there and wire them into the inverter yourself.

Btw, I'm very interested to see some actual references for these 'rule changes'. Can you post some links, so I don't have to start cold searching, please?

Supposedly we cannot even do DIY Ethernet cable installations in our own homes here in Australia.

You're obviously spending far too much time listening to red-tape retards. And contractors with high hourly rates.

TerraHertz - check out some of these links, there might be some useful info. I have found some rules vary state to state (Aus) particularly in regards to feed in tariffs and inverter sizes.


https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=2624827


Sales BS mainly in this link:
https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/dont-buy-second-hand-solar-home/

Approved PV panels. As I understand it panels not on this list cannot be installed onto rooftops:
https://www.solaraccreditation.com.au/dam/solar-accred/solar-products/pv-modules-list/PV%20Modules%20List%20170317.pdf

Above link seems dodgy, try this one:
http://www.cleanenergyregulator.gov.au/DocumentAssets/Pages/CEC-approved-PV-modules.aspx



In regard to red tape - I ignore most of it (comms & data cabling, plumbing etc etc) other than swapping out faulty GPOs, switches and light fittings I tend to leave mains stuff alone. 
The shite quality work I've had electricians do at my house does leave me wondering though!

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

Be aware there is a difference between what is accredited and what is illegal.

If it is not accredited then you can't get the solar certificates (money) for installing them. But I don't know why they would be illegal to install.

As to the inverter, there was a rule change in 2015. The inverter needs to have an earth fault indicator.  So an old inverter would probably be illegal to install.