Sun tax

[vad]

So it looks like Aussie solar users will soon have to pay utility companies if they send too much energy back into the grid during peak hours. I assume by peak hours, they mean when the sun is shining and people are at work. What would be your strategy for minimizing the electrical bill? Getting a Tesla Powerwall? Running the A/C in an empty house? A kill switch? Anything else?

https://9now.nine.com.au/a-current-affair/sun-tax-set-to-charge-solar-panel-owners-who-send-excess-electricity-back-to-the-grid-at-peak-times/8bb2e8e6-feb8-4620-b1aa-806539e252de

[aeberbach]

Your source is the worst tabloid garbage there is, the TV equivalent of National Enquirer. Don't believe any of it.

[tautech]

Your source is the worst tabloid garbage there is, the TV equivalent of National Enquirer. Don't believe any of it.

Please point us to the truth on this matter as it's also been on NZ news today.

[Psi]

I wonder how long before an average sized house can have enough batteries and solar to be totally off-grid.
(with all the better /cheaper /more efficient solar panels and batteries coming down the line)

I imagine that is what the power companies will be worried about long term.

[SiliconWizard]

From what I've read and gotten, the "sun tax" has been decided a few years ago and was meant to be active in 2025. Probably the reason why the news is reappearing as of late, as it should be coming in just a few months.

Apparently, the idea was to tax whatever electricity owners of solar panels reinject into the grid, at "peak" hours - allegedly because it would "congest" the grid. Which is understandable, but sort of ironic.
I don't know more details or whether it's actually going to be applied and how.

Still, that raises the valid point yet again of the storage of energy from solar panels.

[Psi]

I guess it makes sense if there is a surplus of electricity and many 1000's of solar grid-tie systems keep turning on/off based on the sun. Might be kind of annoying to deal with unless the power company had control over everyone's inverters and could turn them off on demand which they cannot atm.
But sadly, getting money from people is always going to be the go-to method to solve a problem, rather than a proper solution.

[tautech]

I wonder how long before an average sized house can have enough batteries and solar to be totally off-grid.
(with all the better /cheaper /more efficient solar panels and batteries coming down the line)

I imagine that is what the power companies will be worried about long term.

Yeah but in Oz (parts of) subsidies were given and a guaranteed grid by back price to ease the load on the network. Was popular but with a catch that the original installation could not be added to without the unit price paid being reduced.

Our Lad in Perth uprated from 10 to 21 panels but got less/unit but the additional power generated benefitted appliances that could be put on timer to only operate during the day.
Evening consumption was kept low so any credits they gained would cover evening use for them to end up ~neutral power cost.

[nctnico]

So it looks like Aussie solar users will soon have to pay utility companies if they send too much energy back into the grid during peak hours. I assume by peak hours, they mean when the sun is shining and people are at work. What would be your strategy for minimizing the electrical bill? Getting a Tesla Powerwall? Running the A/C in an empty house? A kill switch? Anything else?

https://9now.nine.com.au/a-current-affair/sun-tax-set-to-charge-solar-panel-owners-who-send-excess-electricity-back-to-the-grid-at-peak-times/8bb2e8e6-feb8-4620-b1aa-806539e252de

The Aussies are not the only ones getting shafted. From the end of this month I'll be paying 250 euro/year for supplying the grid with electricity from my solar panels. The amount is based on amount of energy I supply. Every energy supplier in the NL has or is going to charge solar panel owners for supplying energy.

I have been looking at batteries but realistically I would need a 3000kWh (yes, three thousand kWh) battery or storage system to avoid the charge and be (mostly) self-supplying where it comes to electrity. A 5kWh to 10kWh battery would smear out usage over a day but with the solar panels able to deliver 100kWh+ in a sunny week, it is clear that a small battery is not going to do much in terms of avoiding the tax.

In the NL there is also the system of getting a kWh for a kWh as long as you consume more than you produce. In my mind this should be an incentive for the power companies to invest in storage. But that isn't happening at a large enough scale. So I agree with Psi about getting money from people is not the solution.

[SiliconWizard]

You pay for supplying energy. Isn't that a good deal?

[tautech]

You pay for supplying energy. Isn't that a good deal?

Only the Power & Line Co's would think and dumb Gubbermints let them get away with it.

[Xena E]

Anecdotal, but an SA acquaintance of mine says that there was a move by Escom to be paid a levy from people who just self generate!

If true what are they going to be paid for? Because they own all the electrons ?

Nothing to do with feed in, just money grabbing from people trying to help themselves who are pissed off with load shedding because the company is being run into the ground by mismanagement, and corruption.

In the UK wind farm operators are paid for turning off generation at times of low demand. Undesirable but an unfortunate fact that renewable are the easiest generation facilities to shut down and start up on demand.

Pumped storage reservoirs are the best current technology to deal with this but new ones in a crowded island like the UK take up too much real estate: individual home storage is doable if there's enough capacity to generate as may be the case in Australia,

Here I'm about able to be off grid 7 months of the year with PV/ battery, which is a problem now during the other five months as the utility companies keep jacking the daily meter charge.

I'd get more panels but I'm maxed out with size as it is.

[aeberbach]

Your source is the worst tabloid garbage there is, the TV equivalent of National Enquirer. Don't believe any of it.

Please point us to the truth on this matter as it's also been on NZ news today.

I think those claiming a Sun Tax would be the ones needing to provide some kind of source, but that's not what they do, it's about selling advertising on the show not verifiable facts.

Further reading ("https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-25/australians-with-rooftop-solar-charged-export-electricity-grid/100026336) says it is a proposal by the Australian Energy Market Commission. A fair way from the "soon, a solar switch will be flicked and it'll be the power punters who pay" garbage of Current Affair.

ABC quote: "The AEMC said the recommendation was not designed to create mandatory export charges, but to create more flexibility and pricing options."
also: "Among a raft of changes put forward in a draft determination released on Thursday is the removal of a prohibition on charging for energy exported into the grid."
AEMC Chief Executive Ben Barr: "The consultation with the poles and wires businesses and the Australian Energy Regulator signing off on any changes will take over 12 [months] to two years,"

So, PV owners TO PAY!? Greedy greenies get SOLAR SLUGGED?! No. Nothing will change for some time and many things could happen.

[wraper]

In the NL there is also the system of getting a kWh for a kWh as long as you consume more than you produce. In my mind this should be an incentive for the power companies to invest in storage. But that isn't happening at a large enough scale. So I agree with Psi about getting money from people is not the solution.

In Latvia there was the same incentive implemented when electricity price gone up to insane level in 2022. A LOT of people installed solar panels at an overprice due to high demand. Then year an a half later it turned out they duped everyone  , so now you get only a 1/4 reimbursement at best for electricity you supplied to the grid.

[wraper]

Your source is the worst tabloid garbage there is, the TV equivalent of National Enquirer. Don't believe any of it.

Please point us to the truth on this matter as it's also been on NZ news today.

I think those claiming a Sun Tax would be the ones needing to provide some kind of source, but that's not what they do, it's about selling advertising on the show not verifiable facts.

It's not a Wikipedia  . Not to say what effing source should they claim if it's the law, how often you see news providing a link to the law rather than just discussing it? Also you clearly don't bother to google before claiming BS. https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/article/2024/may/17/energy-companies-charging-nsw-solar-panel-owners-for-exporting-power-criticised-by-lobby-group

[tom66]

Not sure how long it lasts but due to Octopus Energy participating in the ESO program I've read stories of people doing insane grid arbitrage and profiting as a result using their home batteries.  Buying electricity at 7.5p/kWh off peak and selling it at peak time at £4/kWh.  Even with a 10kWh battery if you manage that more than 10 times a year you'll pay back the battery very quickly indeed, especially with the other energy shifting benefits that can come as a result.  Sadly I do not yet have a home battery so cannot benefit...

[mikeselectricstuff]

If the issue is too much export, surely the solution would be to incentivise users to allow remote control of export limits by the utility.


 

[wraper]

Not sure how long it lasts but due to Octopus Energy participating in the ESO program I've read stories of people doing insane grid arbitrage and profiting as a result using their home batteries.  Buying electricity at 7.5p/kWh off peak and selling it at peak time at £4/kWh.  Even with a 10kWh battery if you manage that more than 10 times a year you'll pay back the battery very quickly indeed, especially with the other energy shifting benefits that can come as a result.  Sadly I do not yet have a home battery so cannot benefit...

And frankly there is nothing bad about it. They basically act as a battery storage power station supporting the grid at peak hours.

[mikeselectricstuff]

The Aussies are not the only ones getting shafted. From the end of this month I'll be paying 250 euro/year for supplying the grid with electricity from my solar panels. The amount is based on amount of energy I supply. Every energy supplier in the NL has or is going to charge solar panel owners for supplying energy.

Presumably that's offset against the  amount you get paid for the export, otherwise you'd just stop exporting. Seems it would be fairer to just adjust what they pay per kWh based on demand, though that might mean upgrades to their metering systems.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Not sure how long it lasts but due to Octopus Energy participating in the ESO program I've read stories of people doing insane grid arbitrage and profiting as a result using their home batteries.  Buying electricity at 7.5p/kWh off peak and selling it at peak time at £4/kWh.  Even with a 10kWh battery if you manage that more than 10 times a year you'll pay back the battery very quickly indeed, especially with the other energy shifting benefits that can come as a result.  Sadly I do not yet have a home battery so cannot benefit...

And frankly there is nothing bad about it. They basically act as a battery storage power station supporting the grid at peak hours.

And cheaper in the short term than building more generation capacity

[nctnico]

In the NL there is also the system of getting a kWh for a kWh as long as you consume more than you produce. In my mind this should be an incentive for the power companies to invest in storage. But that isn't happening at a large enough scale. So I agree with Psi about getting money from people is not the solution.

In Latvia there was the same incentive implemented when electricity price gone up to insane level in 2022. A LOT of people installed solar panels at an overprice due to high demand. Then year an a half later it turned out they duped everyone  , so now you get only a 1/4 reimbursement at best for electricity you supplied to the grid.

Yes. And I also installed solar panels early 2023 but I kept an eye on the costs. I got some quotes like 7000 euro for 12 panels with a projected break even point after 6 years based on 40ct/kWh. That didn't make sense to me because electricity prices wouldn't stay high forever. So I went for a DIY solution costing half. At this moment electricity prices are back to 22ct/kWh over here as I had predicted. Together with the 'sun tax' my panels save me around 700 euro this year (2024) instead of 1200 euro last year (2023). My break even point went from 2.5 years to 4.5 years. The people who paid full price to an installer, are looking at a break even close to 10 years though.

[hans]

But.. it's also opportunism to the max. Buy low sell high is typical stock trader/entrepreneurial mindset.

This is also an issue on multiple levels. Generation of electricity does not have to a problem per se: we just turn up our gas generators, although those are expensive to run.

Another issue is grid capacity, especially on a mid to local level when we have introduced many higher loads with heat pumps, more airconditioners, charging electric cars and induction stoves. Then we also add some reverse electricity flow with micro solar panel or wind generation, add some batteries that do whatever their owner sees fit, and we have created a far more chaotic system than just the large supplier => variable demand electricity system we used to have. Note that many electricity systems are only fused for that last scenario, not for the phantom currents that are supplied between neighbouring houses that run through the local wiring. Theoretically you could have 0A transformer current while still overloading cables.
I'm not surprised at all that a financial curtailment incentive is now introduced at more places.

[nctnico]

Not sure how long it lasts but due to Octopus Energy participating in the ESO program I've read stories of people doing insane grid arbitrage and profiting as a result using their home batteries.  Buying electricity at 7.5p/kWh off peak and selling it at peak time at £4/kWh.  Even with a 10kWh battery if you manage that more than 10 times a year you'll pay back the battery very quickly indeed, especially with the other energy shifting benefits that can come as a result.  Sadly I do not yet have a home battery so cannot benefit...

I would be cautious about that. If a lot of people start doing that, prices will level out and you'll also be competing with large scale battery storage somewhere in the near future. You'll need to have a good insight and make projections (scenarios) to see how much you can gain from having a battery and use it that way.

[aeberbach]

Not sure how long it lasts but due to Octopus Energy participating in the ESO program I've read stories of people doing insane grid arbitrage and profiting as a result using their home batteries.  Buying electricity at 7.5p/kWh off peak and selling it at peak time at £4/kWh.  Even with a 10kWh battery if you manage that more than 10 times a year you'll pay back the battery very quickly indeed, especially with the other energy shifting benefits that can come as a result.  Sadly I do not yet have a home battery so cannot benefit...

And frankly there is nothing bad about it. They basically act as a battery storage power station supporting the grid at peak hours.

As the Octopus CEO said in Forbes recently, it's a "virtual power plant". Much cheaper and more flexible than the other kind.

Your source is the worst tabloid garbage there is, the TV equivalent of National Enquirer. Don't believe any of it.

Please point us to the truth on this matter as it's also been on NZ news today.

I think those claiming a Sun Tax would be the ones needing to provide some kind of source, but that's not what they do, it's about selling advertising on the show not verifiable facts.

It's not a Wikipedia  .

It's not good journalism without a source, it's hearsay. Probably wikipedia is better at it than most traditional media outlets, but The Guardian is better than most. Speaking of your article, Ausgrid is a distributor, not a retailer. How it affects consumers remains to be seen - again, many things could happen.

[Kleinstein]

I have been looking at batteries but realistically I would need a 3000kWh (yes, three thousand kWh) battery or storage system to avoid the charge and be (mostly) self-supplying where it comes to electrity. A 5kWh to 10kWh battery would smear out usage over a day but with the solar panels able to deliver 100kWh+ in a sunny week, it is clear that a small battery is not going to do much in terms of avoiding the tax.

Battery storrage does not make much sense for a longer time frame than a few days at most. For the longer time other solutions (e.g. producing hydrogen or run energy intensive jobs at times when there is sun) make more sense. This includes not using the power at some times when there is really to much.

Somehow the energy companies have missed the point of installing enough grid capacita and storrage  / use on command to adapt to the fluctuations.
Private PV systems may need a way to make them stop sending the power to the grid in a more controlled way (not just from to high a voltage or frequency).

[wraper]

It's not good journalism without a source, it's hearsay. Probably wikipedia is better at it than most traditional media outlets, but The Guardian is better than most. Speaking of your article, Ausgrid is a distributor, not a retailer. How it affects consumers remains to be seen - again, many things could happen.

Again, what effing source? And it's not a court. Guardian turned trash on the level of The Sun.
Not to say at the end of the article:

Minister Bowen didn't address whether he could guarantee power retailers wouldn't increase their charges to solar customers in the future.
A spokesperson for his office said the new rules were implemented under the previous government and the Albanese government was getting on with delivering a reliable renewables plan.
STATEMENT FROM ENERGY MINISTER CHRIS BOWEN'S OFFICE
Australians know that renewables are the cheapest form of energy, which is why so many households are benefitting from cheaper bills because of solar panels on their rooves.
Recent market body reports show a 71 per cent drop in wholesale prices due in large part to increased rooftop solar.
The latest rule change, which was presided over by Angus Taylor in 2021.
The Albanese Government is getting on with implementing a Reliable Renewables Plan, while the Opposition is calling for a 'pause', risking reliability and lower bills