Submersible missing while visiting Titanic wreck

[hans]

To be fair, if I was an engineer at OceanGate, the brutal honesty is the only product I can deliver. If the CEO doesn't take it, then go ahead and design your own vessel. I won't be putting my signature on it.

I did read about it, but I(we?) don't know the exact details of the encounter. Who resigned who? The lawsuit sounds more like the whistleblower disclosing confidential information. It sounds like a tantrum thrown as a result of the honesty. The guy still could have quit right on the spot.

You're right that in practice that stance isn't as clear cut. Some people may get heavily invested in a project, where they are operating in best beliefs they can turn it around. Maybe they make it their personal or professional mission to carry that out. Also quitting means no mortgage payments. But I think any engineer also knows that having a bit of "screw you money" as Dave has put it in many EEVblogs ago (episode 138), it's a good thing to have. No company should put you in a corner where your personal or professional well-being is affected by their poor decisions.

Look at the VW diesel gate. The mid-level managers and engineers responsible for implementation were also prosecuted. And rightly so. Even if no legal action is taken, such a scandal can take a huge hit to your career. Why risk it for the poor decisions of a CEO? Not worth it.. If the CEO fired Lochridge, then I would almost consider that doing a favor.

And "rightly so"? The engineers who wrote the code have families and mortgages to support, they were following the authority figure's commands. Interestingly, they are the ones to blame yet the exec's walk away, every time. We have the Code of Ethics but CEO's have none to follow. It's an entire system that is dysfunctional- the soldiers should walk out of the job?
As an engineer I've both whistleblown and done the "screw you" to any employer pushing me out of safe design. It's common for exec's to think they are outsmarting or working around something that is unfortunately extra work, like safety is.

OceanGate's engineering manager need to get fleeced. Read the lawsuit answer to complaints, Lochridge got sued "for stealing IP" and a bunch of other horseshit meant to punish him.
The small guy taking on Mr. Big Co. can ruin your life financially and end your career as well.

Maybe I miscommunicated what I said about "rightly so". I meant to say that if an engineer is commissioning a design that he/she knows is not safe or even fraudulant, and if it's bending over, then that's their ethical misjudgement at play. I think ethics and its consequences is not taught enough during engineering college, and what it means to commission something you know is potentially not right. Maybe engineer being a protected trade isn't as bad an idea? I hope we can then introduce some mandatory ethics courses, just like medical doctors will have to pass their patients&healthcare professional ethics, and also instantiate some official bodies where people can whistleblow. I agree with you that corporations are far too powerful in this, and should not go unpunished in this.

This stuff is not about playing with some Arduino's to blink some LEDs. There is a reason why some people choose to get into or choose to avoid certain industries; like automobile, aviation, medical or military, where people's life or health depend on your design decisions. I've (briefly) been in 2 of those 4 industries, and no I wouldn't want to go back. Pardon me for only wanting to work on "pet projects" level of criticality. One reason for that is I don't buy onto "I need to support my family" argument. It's a common phrashing to hear engineers demand top dollar salary because we can easily find other work. But carrying responsibility, especially as one goes higher up the chain, is part of that transaction.

I agree with you that unfortunately some (or can I say a lot?) organisations don't have ethics written all over them. Maybe even corrupt from within. I agree with you that the engineering manager can receive a large blame as well. Chasing former employees with lawsuits as punishment also looks like a big tamper tantrum. But I really have a hard time believing that a healthy work relationship is destructed overnight, out of the blue, because Lochridge called out on the design. At that point its perhaps more of a judgement call whether you want to pick the fight or walk out.

But as an outsider and "pet project"-engineer, I've quite an easy time saying that, and I don't know enough details to make a proper judgement.

[iMo]

..
It's still not that easy because the beacon has to be located outside the vessel yet controlled by ?... inside the vessel.
To get a wire from the inside to outside, you need a gland seal good for 5,500psi- that is a major major hurdle. And they usually cost a fortune and leak.
..

Could it be Titan has none wires going from the inside to outside (none seals needed), communicating wireless via the CF wall with the other systems located in the rear?

[Bud]

They have 96 hours of oxygen but do they have any food, let alone drinking water. And where/how they dispose their biologic waste.

[floobydust]

Maybe I miscommunicated what I said about "rightly so". I meant to say that if an engineer is commissioning a design that he/she knows is not safe or even fraudulant, and if it's bending over, then that's their ethical misjudgement at play. I think ethics and its consequences is not taught enough during engineering college, and what it means to commission something you know is potentially not right. Maybe engineer being a protected trade isn't as bad an idea? I hope we can then introduce some mandatory ethics courses, just like medical doctors will have to pass their patients&healthcare professional ethics, and also instantiate some official bodies where people can whistleblow. I agree with you that corporations are far too powerful in this, and should not go unpunished in this.

This stuff is not about playing with some Arduino's to blink some LEDs. There is a reason why some people choose to get into or choose to avoid certain industries; like automobile, aviation, medical or military, where people's life or health depend on your design decisions. I've (briefly) been in 2 of those 4 industries, and no I wouldn't want to go back. Pardon me for only wanting to work on "pet projects" level of criticality. One reason for that is I don't buy onto "I need to support my family" argument. It's a common phrashing to hear engineers demand top dollar salary because we can easily find other work. But carrying responsibility, especially as one goes higher up the chain, is part of that transaction.

I agree with you that unfortunately some (or can I say a lot?) organisations don't have ethics written all over them. Maybe even corrupt from within. I agree with you that the engineering manager can receive a large blame as well. Chasing former employees with lawsuits as punishment also looks like a big tamper tantrum. But I really have a hard time believing that a healthy work relationship is destructed overnight, out of the blue, because Lochridge called out on the design. At that point its perhaps more of a judgement call whether you want to pick the fight or walk out.

But as an outsider and "pet project"-engineer, I've quite an easy time saying that, and I don't know enough details to make a proper judgement.

The problem is anyone can be an "engineering manager". How many of us have worked for cromagnons or PhD's that think they are above what we do, moderately annoying but a line gets crossed where fraud is being promoted.

I've been responsible for big scary projects, stamped drawings, signed off and directed young engineers and techs as well.
I've worked for at least 3 corrupt CEO's. One rolling out product that exploded and pushed me to approve it so he could keep selling it. Goodbye!
Whistleblew on two engineering managers where a project almost exploded, I had pictures. It was about keeping costs dirt cheap with no project delays, as priority #1.
Walked out on two companies because they weren't listening to me and defending reasonable safety pisses me off you won't be telling me how to do it. Fuck your Gantt chart and the crisis to get product out the door and money in for the investors, engineering manager bonus included. First and foremost, it shall be safe. Let's do it right.

I would say the engineering profession is no longer fun and recommend it to no one. There is increasing scope and responsibility for us yet projects are easily steamrolled, sabotaged by those having a purely egotistical or financial interest as they command us to make crap.

Just as a corporation is wrongly legally defined "as a person", CEO's and corporation's leaders are made of teflon and put the onus on the engineers to be honest.

[langwadt]

They have 96 hours of oxygen but do they have any food, let alone drinking water. And where/how they dispose their biologic waste.

you can do without food for several weeks. it wouldn't make sense to have oxygen for 96 hour and no water, with no water you might not make it through 96 hours

[gnuarm]

For a plane yes, for a sub- no.

Sorry, but with a deadman timer it would have been a big help.

Why is "activation" needed?  It could be active always when the sub is in the water.  Are we worried about too many submersibles being launched at the same time?

[gnuarm]

For a plane yes, for a sub- no.

Sorry, but with a deadman timer it would have been a big help.

It's still not that easy because the beacon has to be located outside the vessel yet controlled by ?... inside the vessel.

Why inside?  The beacon can contain the timer.  Why complicate things?  For that matter, have it always active.  Is it going to interfere with another rescue effort nearby?

[gnuarm]

It is a questionable design when the people inside have no means of opening the hatch in an emergency. Using a Playstation-type gamers pad to drive it raises a few questions. Was a proper risk analysis done on Titan? I wonder if they are playing Doom on a Windows PC whilst they wait for the inevitable.

What good does it do anyone to be able to open a hatch at 1,000 feet depth?  Not that you could anyway.  The hatch would be held closed by the pressure.

Opening it when it gets to the surface so you can get in some fresh air. It's amazing how handy that can be when you are stuck in vessel with a CEO or two.

Which space capsule was it that was lost because the hatch opened before the flotation was secured?  The astronaut almost died.  The ocean is not like your swimming pool.

Liberty Bell 7 second Mercury mission, the astronaut was Gus Grissom. It was about to be hoisted up by a helicopter when the hatch blew open and it started taking in water

Yeah, he was blamed for the premature release of the explosive bolts.  It was fairly recently they discovered a sneak path where static could blow the bolts and now realize this was how the hatch blew.

[mendip_discovery]

For a plane yes, for a sub- no.

Sorry, but with a deadman timer it would have been a big help.

It's still not that easy because the beacon has to be located outside the vessel yet controlled by ?... inside the vessel.
To get a wire from the inside to outside, you need a gland seal good for 5,500psi- that is a major major hurdle. And they usually cost a fortune and leak.

This Titan sub is full of zip ties holding loose cables together, it's quite shoddy  any scuff and things get loose and wrecked. Under the pretty cover, the submersible looks kinda awful.

It doesn't need to electronic and fed by a wire through the hull, there are other engineering options to get around things. A few basic systems to help if things that go wrong. I can only assume the team who built this has never had a afternoon chat with a off shore worker or even a few drinks with a sub mariner (they dont make any sense until a few beers in) where they will talk to you about the amount of stuff they go through just to stay safe out at sea, I would repeat the info but I will get it wrong as I clearly can't keep pace with the drinking habits of these types.

[gnuarm]

..
It's still not that easy because the beacon has to be located outside the vessel yet controlled by ?... inside the vessel.
To get a wire from the inside to outside, you need a gland seal good for 5,500psi- that is a major major hurdle. And they usually cost a fortune and leak.
..

Could it be Titan has none wires going from the inside to outside (none seals needed), communicating wireless via the CF wall with the other systems located in the rear?

There's also the fact that wires through a bulkhead do not require a "gland".  They can pass through a permanent path. 

[gnuarm]

They have 96 hours of oxygen but do they have any food, let alone drinking water. And where/how they dispose their biologic waste.

Is any of this a real concern.  Three days without water might be pushing it, but food is just not an issue.  A few bottles of water are likely on board. 

[Zero999]

Oh no. It appears wokeness is partly responsible for this.  The CEO didn't want to hire ex-military submariners because they're typically 50 year old white guys because they aren't inspirational.
https://www.informationliberation.com/?id=63826


Great so they've employed young inspirational people and women, rather than choosing the best personnel based purely on merit. What could go wrong?

[pickle9000]

I think the pilot is both ex military and white.

[Stray Electron]

"the passengers were sealed inside the vessel by bolts applied from the outside" (and the bolts can not be opened from the inside)

What's not to like about that...

Honestly, that's a daredevil ride, and those happen to fail.

I doubt there's many other options than a massive number of bolts all around the outside, given the depth and pressures involved.
Even if you could move those bolts to the inside, i think that would probably make it less safe rather than more.

   I just watched an old interview with the spokesman for the sub's owners. It only uses 17 bolts to hold the hatch on. Surprisingly few for a hatch that is probably at least 18 inches in diameter.

   A yes, it uses a hand held Nintendo video game controller to operate the sub! 

[TheSteve]

For a plane yes, for a sub- no.

Sorry, but with a deadman timer it would have been a big help.

It's still not that easy because the beacon has to be located outside the vessel yet controlled by ?... inside the vessel.

Why inside?  The beacon can contain the timer.  Why complicate things?  For that matter, have it always active.  Is it going to interfere with another rescue effort nearby?

Exactly, have a self contained beacon unit bonded/strapped to the outside of the a hull. No holes needed.

[pickle9000]

I can't see a project like this happen without professional and experienced crew. OK maybe there are people in training but this is not a game. You have to have people in charge with connections to the industries and personnel that can make this happen. It's just too dangerous. 

[pickle9000]

So here is topic. I'm guessing the batteries are under the floor as well as everything else. In theory that means wires coming trough the hull from the thrusters and so on.

Can you lift the floor to get at everything while diving?

[Zero999]

For a plane yes, for a sub- no.

Sorry, but with a deadman timer it would have been a big help.

It's still not that easy because the beacon has to be located outside the vessel yet controlled by ?... inside the vessel.

Why inside?  The beacon can contain the timer.  Why complicate things?  For that matter, have it always active.  Is it going to interfere with another rescue effort nearby?

Exactly, have a self contained beacon unit bonded/strapped to the outside of the a hull. No holes needed.

They wanted to make it as cheap as possible, which meant using off the shelf parts.

And yes, making it always active would be a problem because it might interfere with another rescue mission and the loud 8.8kHz would also be annoying and even cause hearing damage.

[TimFox]

Oh no. It appears wokeness is partly responsible for this.  The CEO didn't want to hire ex-military submariners because they're typically 50 year old white guys because they aren't inspirational.
https://www.informationliberation.com/?id=63826


Great so they've employed young inspirational people and women, rather than choosing the best personnel based purely on merit. What could go wrong?

From that article:  "Former OceanGate director of marine operations David Lochridge -- one of those "50-year-old white guys" Rush wanted to avoid hiring for not being "inspirational" enough -- was fired by Rush in 2018 after he reportedly blew the whistle on OceanGate by raising safety concerns over their first-of-a-kind carbon fiber hull and other systems."

The problem with "merit" is how you define the metric.
On one end of the political spectrum, people discount "expertise".
On the other end of that spectrum, people discount "experience".

[Stray Electron]

It is a questionable design when the people inside have no means of opening the hatch in an emergency. Using a Playstation-type gamers pad to drive it raises a few questions. Was a proper risk analysis done on Titan? I wonder if they are playing Doom on a Windows PC whilst they wait for the inevitable.

What good does it do anyone to be able to open a hatch at 1,000 feet depth?  Not that you could anyway.  The hatch would be held closed by the pressure.

Opening it when it gets to the surface so you can get in some fresh air. It's amazing how handy that can be when you are stuck in vessel with a CEO or two.

Which space capsule was it that was lost because the hatch opened before the flotation was secured?  The astronaut almost died.  The ocean is not like your swimming pool.

Liberty Bell 7 second Mercury mission, the astronaut was Gus Grissom. It was about to be hoisted up by a helicopter when the hatch blew open and it started taking in water

  Old Gus was madder than hell after they got him to the ship!  It seems that the rescue swimmers were more concerned about getting a cable onto the sinking Liberty Bell 7 than they were about rescuing him and he said that his space suit was rapidly filling with water and dragging him underwater.   

  Gus complained for YEARS afterward that he didn't blow the hatch but for years NASA insisted that it was the only way that the hatch could have been blown. It wasn't until many years after his death that NASA finally admitted that it was possible to blow the hatch without him doing it.

[TimFox]

I remember the old U-boat and submarine movies where the first thing the captain did, before arriving at the battlefront, was to dive past the depth specification for the vessel to look for leaks before they would interfere with the mission.

[pickle9000]

It is a questionable design when the people inside have no means of opening the hatch in an emergency. Using a Playstation-type gamers pad to drive it raises a few questions. Was a proper risk analysis done on Titan? I wonder if they are playing Doom on a Windows PC whilst they wait for the inevitable.

What good does it do anyone to be able to open a hatch at 1,000 feet depth?  Not that you could anyway.  The hatch would be held closed by the pressure.

Opening it when it gets to the surface so you can get in some fresh air. It's amazing how handy that can be when you are stuck in vessel with a CEO or two.

Which space capsule was it that was lost because the hatch opened before the flotation was secured?  The astronaut almost died.  The ocean is not like your swimming pool.

Liberty Bell 7 second Mercury mission, the astronaut was Gus Grissom. It was about to be hoisted up by a helicopter when the hatch blew open and it started taking in water

  Old Gus was madder than hell after they got him to the ship!  It seems that the rescue swimmers were more concerned about getting a cable onto the sinking Liberty Bell 7 than they were about rescuing him and he said that his space suit was rapidly filling with water and dragging him underwater.   

  Gus complained for YEARS afterward that he didn't blow the hatch but for years NASA insisted that it was the only way that the hatch could have been blown. It wasn't until many years after his death that NASA finally admitted that it was possible to blow the hatch without him doing it.

The Liberty Bell 7 has been recovered and the control panel switch position was not toggled.

[Stray Electron]

I remember the old U-boat and submarine movies where the first thing the captain did, before arriving at the battlefront, was to dive past the depth specification for the vessel to look for leaks before they would interfere with the mission.

  Yeah, well any kind of idiocy is survivable in the movies.  Real life, not so much.

[Stray Electron]

The Liberty Bell 7 has been recovered and the control panel switch position was not toggled.

  I know. I've seen it and I was able handle and examine some of the electrical components from it. It's absolutely amazing that they were finally able to recover it. And it was/is still in VERY GOOD condition! https://cosmo.org/event-pictures/view/liberty-bell-7-recovery

[Zero999]

Oh no. It appears wokeness is partly responsible for this.  The CEO didn't want to hire ex-military submariners because they're typically 50 year old white guys because they aren't inspirational.
https://www.informationliberation.com/?id=63826
Great so they've employed young inspirational people and women, rather than choosing the best personnel based purely on merit. What could go wrong?

From that article:  "Former OceanGate director of marine operations David Lochridge -- one of those "50-year-old white guys" Rush wanted to avoid hiring for not being "inspirational" enough -- was fired by Rush in 2018 after he reportedly blew the whistle on OceanGate by raising safety concerns over their first-of-a-kind carbon fiber hull and other systems."

The problem with "merit" is how you define the metric.
On one end of the political spectrum, people discount "expertise".
On the other end of that spectrum, people discount "experience".

In my book merit means characteristics such as expertise, experience, intelligence, assertiveness, composure etc. i.e. criteria which are important for doing the job. The other characteristics mentioned by the CEO, i.e. being white, male and over 50, so long as the person is in good health of course, are irreverent.