Submersible missing while visiting Titanic wreck

[tom66]

Seeing on the news that two C-17's plus a 747 have been despatched to provide supplies for the search effort.  In addition there are at least 20 vessels searching, deployment of the US and Canadian Coast Guards, a French ROV has been moved over at speed from a research institute in France to help the search, and a cable laying vessel has come from the Bahamas (it is said to possess additional deep diving equipment and ROVs).

If they DO rescue these guys, I hope that they pick up the tab for this.  It must be approaching $50 million now.

[pickle9000]

Today's newspaper article about previous warnings and refusals to submit for certification on this project mentioned that the viewport was only certified for depths < 1300 m.
The shipwreck site is at roughly 4000 m depth.

I've been wondering how many subs are certified and what that means. Certainly safety is a thing and I don't want to understate its importance. In the world of electronics medical equipment is regulated and certified as are things that directly connect to the power grid. Heavy equipment used off road is engineered not certified. Look at the railway industry the locomotives and cars are regulated but the equipment the constructs the tracks is not.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Wow, was I wrong on the banging. You have to give RollingStone a pat on the back for the reporting. How is it a magazine with that kind of name breaks so many big new stories? Not to mention trusted.

The short answer, this guy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah_Shachtman

[TimFox]

Today's newspaper article about previous warnings and refusals to submit for certification on this project mentioned that the viewport was only certified for depths < 1300 m.
The shipwreck site is at roughly 4000 m depth.

I've been wondering how many subs are certified and what that means. Certainly safety is a thing and I don't want to understate its importance. In the world of electronics medical equipment is regulated and certified as are things that directly connect to the power grid. Heavy equipment used off road is engineered not certified. Look at the railway industry the locomotives and cars are regulated but the equipment the constructs the tracks is not.

According to the same newspaper article (NY Times, June 21, 2023, p A9):
There is a  "Manned Underwater Vehicles" committee of the "Marine Technology Society" for submersible craft.
Their experts had warned about this submersible before.
A private company "DNV" in "risk assessment" does this kind of certification for classification standards.
see  https://www.dnv.com/services/manned-submersibles-1102
OceanGate claimed their unit met or exceeded DNV's criteria, but had no plans to submit it for formal certification.

[Bud]

So there will be two wrecks on the ocean floor now, and another company will make an attraction show out of this, hopefully this time with certified diving vehicles.

[floobydust]

Today's newspaper article about previous warnings and refusals to submit for certification on this project mentioned that the viewport was only certified for depths < 1300 m.
The shipwreck site is at roughly 4000 m depth.

I've been wondering how many subs are certified and what that means. Certainly safety is a thing and I don't want to understate its importance. In the world of electronics medical equipment is regulated and certified as are things that directly connect to the power grid. Heavy equipment used off road is engineered not certified. Look at the railway industry the locomotives and cars are regulated but the equipment the constructs the tracks is not.

This incident makes engineering look shitty when it's yet another corrupt CEO fraudulently gaming things.
OceanGate immediately fired and then sued the whistleblower David Lochridge FFS, that was how bad it is.

Engineering professional associations put the burden on the engineer, as if we are are supposed to quit our jobs and whistle blow, as a solution to corrupt leadership. Are they paying our legal fees, mortgage payments during the unemployment period for being "the good guy"?

Dennis Muilenburg got his $62M parachute and is sipping mai tai's on the beach, after heading new cheapola Flair Airlines. Let the tradition continue.

Safety certification doesn't mean much, it's not the answer. Boeing had the same attitude, that all the red tape was cumbersome and in the way, so they circumvented the FAA. You can lie to an agency, or subvert them as well.

We don't have a system to police and enforce unapproved cowboy products that can kill people, or the corrupt executives running the show.

[hans]

To be fair, if I was an engineer at OceanGate, the brutal honesty is the only product I can deliver. If the CEO doesn't take it, then go ahead and design your own vessel. I won't be putting my signature on it.

I did read about it, but I(we?) don't know the exact details of the encounter. Who resigned who? The lawsuit sounds more like the whistleblower disclosing confidential information. It sounds like a tantrum thrown as a result of the honesty. The guy still could have quit right on the spot. It's not always clear who is the dramaqueen in such a case IMO.

You're right that in practice that stance isn't as clear cut. Some people may get heavily invested in a project, where they are operating in best beliefs they can turn it around. Maybe they make it their personal or professional mission to carry that out. Also quitting means no mortgage payments. But I think any engineer also knows that having a bit of "screw you money" as Dave has put it in many EEVblogs ago (episode 138), it's a good thing to have. No company should put you in a corner where your personal or professional well-being is affected by their poor decisions.

Look at the VW diesel gate. The mid-level managers and engineers responsible for implementation were also prosecuted. And rightly so. Even if no legal action is taken, such a scandal can take a huge hit to your career. Why risk it for the poor decisions of a CEO? Not worth it.. If the CEO fired Lochridge, then I would almost consider that doing a favor.

[pickle9000]

Today's newspaper article about previous warnings and refusals to submit for certification on this project mentioned that the viewport was only certified for depths < 1300 m.
The shipwreck site is at roughly 4000 m depth.

I've been wondering how many subs are certified and what that means. Certainly safety is a thing and I don't want to understate its importance. In the world of electronics medical equipment is regulated and certified as are things that directly connect to the power grid. Heavy equipment used off road is engineered not certified. Look at the railway industry the locomotives and cars are regulated but the equipment the constructs the tracks is not.

This incident makes engineering look shitty when it's yet another corrupt CEO fraudulently gaming things.
OceanGate immediately fired and then sued the whistleblower David Lochridge FFS, that was how bad it is.

Engineering professional associations put the burden on the engineer, as if we are are supposed to quit our jobs and whistle blow, as a solution to corrupt leadership. Are they paying our legal fees, mortgage payments during the unemployment period for being "the good guy"?

Dennis Muilenburg got his $62M parachute and is sipping mai tai's on the beach, after heading new cheapola Flair Airlines. Let the tradition continue.

Safety certification doesn't mean much, it's not the answer. Boeing had the same attitude, that all the red tape was cumbersome and in the way, so they circumvented the FAA. You can lie to an agency, or subvert them as well.

We don't have a system to police and enforce unapproved cowboy products that can kill people, or the corrupt executives running the show.

This sounds right. Going after a corporation is useless make the man who made the actual decisions pay if not financially out of his her own pocket then with time in prison. Seriously if a company gets a big fine or whatever then the shut down the shop and open up under a different name the following week. Engineers don't want to hurt people. They want the work double checked to be on the side of success.

[gnuarm]

It is a questionable design when the people inside have no means of opening the hatch in an emergency. Using a Playstation-type gamers pad to drive it raises a few questions. Was a proper risk analysis done on Titan? I wonder if they are playing Doom on a Windows PC whilst they wait for the inevitable.

What good does it do anyone to be able to open a hatch at 1,000 feet depth?  Not that you could anyway.  The hatch would be held closed by the pressure.

[james_s]

That is a valid point, or worse, if you pass under something and then the ballast is automatically released and you get stuck under that thing, the thought is terrifying. I would assume they had some kind of radio or satellite rescue beacon on board in case they surfaced somewhere in the distance but who knows. Even in that scenario opening the hatch probably isn't going to help you since you're still out in the middle of the ocean, although an inflatable life raft is an option at that point.

From what I've gathered:
a) There is no location beacon
b) You can't open the hatch from the inside, it's sealed from the outside using 18 bolts
c) A journalist has told how on a previous expendition that due to currents they got stuck under the propeller of the titantic and eventually were able to free themselves. So it shows this sort of thing can happen.

If they are trapped down there and the ballast system has activated and they are stuck, it's entirely possibe that changing currents may one day break it free and it resurfaces.

I'm surprised to hear they had no beacon. Even 10 years ago my dad had a satellite beacon on board his sailboat, they're only a few hundred dollars and will automatically activate when they go in the water.

[floobydust]

To be fair, if I was an engineer at OceanGate, the brutal honesty is the only product I can deliver. If the CEO doesn't take it, then go ahead and design your own vessel. I won't be putting my signature on it.

I did read about it, but I(we?) don't know the exact details of the encounter. Who resigned who? The lawsuit sounds more like the whistleblower disclosing confidential information. It sounds like a tantrum thrown as a result of the honesty. The guy still could have quit right on the spot.

You're right that in practice that stance isn't as clear cut. Some people may get heavily invested in a project, where they are operating in best beliefs they can turn it around. Maybe they make it their personal or professional mission to carry that out. Also quitting means no mortgage payments. But I think any engineer also knows that having a bit of "screw you money" as Dave has put it in many EEVblogs ago (episode 138), it's a good thing to have. No company should put you in a corner where your personal or professional well-being is affected by their poor decisions.

Look at the VW diesel gate. The mid-level managers and engineers responsible for implementation were also prosecuted. And rightly so. Even if no legal action is taken, such a scandal can take a huge hit to your career. Why risk it for the poor decisions of a CEO? Not worth it.. If the CEO fired Lochridge, then I would almost consider that doing a favor.

And "rightly so"? The engineers who wrote the code have families and mortgages to support, they were following the authority figure's commands. Interestingly, they are the ones to blame yet the exec's walk away, every time. We have the Code of Ethics but CEO's have none to follow. It's an entire system that is dysfunctional- the soldiers should walk out of the job?
As an engineer I've both whistleblown and done the "screw you" to any employer pushing me out of safe design. It's common for exec's to think they are outsmarting or working around something that is unfortunately extra work, like safety is.

OceanGate's engineering manager need to get fleeced. Read the lawsuit answer to complaints, Lochridge got sued "for stealing IP" and a bunch of other horseshit meant to punish him.
The small guy taking on Mr. Big Co. can ruin your life financially and end your career as well.

[pickle9000]

CEO's can be brought in line. Take their personal money.

[mendip_discovery]

CEO's can be brought in line. Take their personal money.

A good CEO will have used the system to hide the money so you cant get to much of it. Just look at Trump.

[mendip_discovery]

It is a questionable design when the people inside have no means of opening the hatch in an emergency. Using a Playstation-type gamers pad to drive it raises a few questions. Was a proper risk analysis done on Titan? I wonder if they are playing Doom on a Windows PC whilst they wait for the inevitable.

What good does it do anyone to be able to open a hatch at 1,000 feet depth?  Not that you could anyway.  The hatch would be held closed by the pressure.

Opening it when it gets to the surface so you can get in some fresh air. It's amazing how handy that can be when you are stuck in vessel with a CEO or two.

[gnuarm]

I'm surprised to hear they had no beacon. Even 10 years ago my dad had a satellite beacon on board his sailboat, they're only a few hundred dollars and will automatically activate when they go in the water.

That would only be of use once you are on the surface.

[gnuarm]

It is a questionable design when the people inside have no means of opening the hatch in an emergency. Using a Playstation-type gamers pad to drive it raises a few questions. Was a proper risk analysis done on Titan? I wonder if they are playing Doom on a Windows PC whilst they wait for the inevitable.

What good does it do anyone to be able to open a hatch at 1,000 feet depth?  Not that you could anyway.  The hatch would be held closed by the pressure.

Opening it when it gets to the surface so you can get in some fresh air. It's amazing how handy that can be when you are stuck in vessel with a CEO or two.

Which space capsule was it that was lost because the hatch opened before the flotation was secured?  The astronaut almost died.  The ocean is not like your swimming pool.

[floobydust]

[...] I'm surprised to hear they had no beacon. Even 10 years ago my dad had a satellite beacon on board his sailboat, they're only a few hundred dollars and will automatically activate when they go in the water.

Underwater Locator Beacon (ULB) good to depths of 20,000 ft detection range 16 nm/29km (low freq. 8.8kHz) have been available for a long time in aviation, since a crash in 1965 drove an FAA requirement to have "pingers."
i.e. https://www.novega-sky.com/en/sid88-the-new-lf-ulb.html and Honeywell etc. 
Flight AF447 recorder was found at 3,980m (13,060 ft.) Flight SA295 recorder found at depth of 4,900m (16,100 ft.)

The only modification would be to do some engineering to change from using water activation. But ain't nobody got time for that.

At this time, the search has not located the Titan and it's precious time lost that a beacon could have saved.

[pickle9000]

CEO's can be brought in line. Take their personal money.

A good CEO will have used the system to hide the money so you cant get to much of it. Just look at Trump.

Hard to disagree, but I can dream.

[pickle9000]

[...] I'm surprised to hear they had no beacon. Even 10 years ago my dad had a satellite beacon on board his sailboat, they're only a few hundred dollars and will automatically activate when they go in the water.

Underwater Locator Beacon (ULB) good to depths of 20,000 ft detection range 16 nm/29km (low freq. 8.8kHz) have been available for a long time in aviation, since a crash in 1965 drove an FAA requirement to have "pingers."
i.e. https://www.novega-sky.com/en/sid88-the-new-lf-ulb.html and Honeywell etc. 
Flight AF447 recorder was found at 3,980m (13,060 ft.) Flight SA295 recorder found at depth of 4,900m (16,100 ft.)

The only modification would be to do some engineering to change from using water activation. But ain't nobody got time for that.

At this time, the search has not located the Titan and it's precious time lost that a beacon could have saved.

Water activation sounds great.

[floobydust]

For a plane yes, for a sub- no.

[pickle9000]

For a plane yes, for a sub- no.

Sorry, but with a deadman timer it would have been a big help.

[Stray Electron]

* answer-to-complaint.pdf

  Wow! the window was only rated to go to 1300 meters! Just Wow. 

  Has anyone heard how deep the sub was when it quit pinging?  From what I recall hearing, they were only about 1 hour into what was supposed be a 5 1/2 hour dive.  Also how many previous dives had this vessel made and how deep?

[floobydust]

For a plane yes, for a sub- no.

Sorry, but with a deadman timer it would have been a big help.

It's still not that easy because the beacon has to be located outside the vessel yet controlled by ?... inside the vessel.
To get a wire from the inside to outside, you need a gland seal good for 5,500psi- that is a major major hurdle. And they usually cost a fortune and leak.

This Titan sub is full of zip ties holding loose cables together, it's quite shoddy  any scuff and things get loose and wrecked. Under the pretty cover, the submersible looks kinda awful.

Compare to the Deepsea Challenger (used 2-1/2" high tensile steel hull) that filmmaker James Cameron took down to 10,898m (35,756 ft) in the Mariana Trench. That submersible build quality is very good, it's a masterful Australian project, Rolex watch on the outside as well 
They put cables inside tubing filled with 3M Fluorinert. Lots of neat engineering in that vessel, although it requires a cable to surface I think.
Pt. 1/3 https://www.oceannews.com/featured-stories/june-editorial-focus-technology-of-the-deepsea-challenge-expedition-part-1-of-3-the-landers
Pt. 2/3 https://www.oceannews.com/featured-stories/july-technology-of-the-deepsea-challenge-expedition-part-2-of-3-deepsea-challenger-1
Pt. 3/3 https://www.oceannews.com/featured-stories/august-technology-of-the-deepsea-challenge-expedition-part-3-of-3-deepsea-challenger-1

[floobydust]

* answer-to-complaint.pdf

  Wow! the window was only rated to go to 1300 meters! Just Wow. 

  Has anyone heard how deep the sub was when it quit pinging?  From what I recall hearing, they were only about 1 hour into what was supposed be a 5 1/2 hour dive.  Also how many previous dives had this vessel made and how deep?

How much $$$$$ for a viewport?
There's mention of anywhere from 2-4 hours to dive, so it's unknown. Assuming 2 hours that gives around 10,000ft down at 1:45 into the trip.
The thing is very heavy, I wonder if the buoyancy calculations were correct? Oh it''s how many people-rated? 2 or 5? I can't see ejectable ballast weights in any pics.

[langwadt]

It is a questionable design when the people inside have no means of opening the hatch in an emergency. Using a Playstation-type gamers pad to drive it raises a few questions. Was a proper risk analysis done on Titan? I wonder if they are playing Doom on a Windows PC whilst they wait for the inevitable.

What good does it do anyone to be able to open a hatch at 1,000 feet depth?  Not that you could anyway.  The hatch would be held closed by the pressure.

Opening it when it gets to the surface so you can get in some fresh air. It's amazing how handy that can be when you are stuck in vessel with a CEO or two.

Which space capsule was it that was lost because the hatch opened before the flotation was secured?  The astronaut almost died.  The ocean is not like your swimming pool.

Liberty Bell 7 second Mercury mission, the astronaut was Gus Grissom. It was about to be hoisted up by a helicopter when the hatch blew open and it started taking in water