Submerged mineral oil PC - but EE what would say on it? Finally...

[james_s]

It totally makes sance to reuse heat from servers, cryptominers, rendering farms etc.

By removing fans, lowering working temperatures your are lowering resitance which converts into lower power usage.
With recovered, sometimes MW of power You have heat source capable of heating towns.

Regards, Pawel

Cryptominers should not exist in the first place, they should be illegal to produce and operate. The amount of energy they consume doing useless busy work is obscene and has completely negated all the progress we have made toward greater efficiency and lower environmental impact.

[jonpaul]

Rebonjour Cher Pavel, j'ai connexions forte à Pologne.  BRAVO pour votre efforts et idées nouvelles.


I was electrical engineer since ,1968, consultant and manufacturing spécialiste in high voltage, power supplies, magnetics, up to 12 kW and 75 kV. Now long retired!

Best référence book on utility transmission and distribution transformers, most oil cooled, since,1925(!) is classic, The J&P Transformer book éd Martin Heathcote.UK,
costly but earlier éditions are fine, my tenth ,Ed,in London, Foyles in 1973....was,£25!

https://www.amazon.com/J-Transformer-Book-Martin-Heathcote/dp/0750681640/

Je suis très heureux pour un vidéo ou appel via Skype, Facetime, Zoom.

PM me with contact information.

Amicalement

Jon

[NiHaoMike]

Cryptominers should not exist in the first place, they should be illegal to produce and operate. The amount of energy they consume doing useless busy work is obscene and has completely negated all the progress we have made toward greater efficiency and lower environmental impact.

Make the busy work not useless, as Curecoin and Foldingcoin do. Or make it something that uses less energy, but that's a harder problem to solve in the long term.

[james_s]

Make the busy work not useless, as Curecoin and Foldingcoin do. Or make it something that uses less energy, but that's a harder problem to solve in the long term.

If it uses less power it's not going to be worth as much. If you try to make something that consumes little power, someone will just use bigger hardware that uses more power in order to mine it faster. I don't see any way to make it hard to mine that won't also encourage large amounts of power to be used. The entire concept is fundamentally flawed, and all crypto is useless as currency because it is so unstable. If you can make a lot of money investing in it then it's not a good currency.

[felixd]

It totally makes sance to reuse heat from servers, cryptominers, rendering farms etc.

While it certainly can have some niche applications, and I don't doubt you have a great product here, my point was that it made absolutely no sense to cool down a desktop PC, which was the point of the thread.

Even for servers, that's something that would be used with a lot of thought. Not just submerging the whole hardware in mineral oil. The resulting weight would be enormous (causing specific issues for mounting purposes) and, it would render any maintenance a horrific process.

I completely agree. Immersion Cooling is not for desktop PC cooling (although You can do it - history of this post shows that.

Our installations are achieving PUE at < 1.04 One of the best DCs in my region (air cooled) are proud to get lowest PUE at around 1.2
Think about OPEX and savings on cooling (which is one of the biggest parts of OPEX costs for DC).

You are removing noise and vibrations - completely. Virtually, there is no noise


Maintenance: That is correct. It's not horrific process BUT requires different approach. I do totally agree in that point. On the other hand keep in mind all the advantages of the instalaltions: lower power usage, no noise, no dust, better cooling and what is MOST important for me - EASE OF HEAT REUSING

Lower temperatures is also a field for overclocking if needed or lowering power usage even more - with lower temperature comes lower power useage at same CPU frequency . Paper towels shouldn't stop You from choosing right direction.

Once again, I would like to point out that we are not using mineral oils. We have fully synthetic immersion cooling liquid [physico-chemical properties are on our web page]

Weight Yes - that is a thing to consider. Especially when with immersion cooling You can achievie MUCH HIGHER hardware density per square meter. But hey, we are engineers - everything can be calculated and designed.

Paweł.

[felixd]

It totally makes sance to reuse heat from servers, cryptominers, rendering farms etc.

By removing fans, lowering working temperatures your are lowering resitance which converts into lower power usage.
With recovered, sometimes MW of power You have heat source capable of heating towns.

Regards, Pawel

Cryptominers should not exist in the first place, they should be illegal to produce and operate. The amount of energy they consume doing useless busy work is obscene and has completely negated all the progress we have made toward greater efficiency and lower environmental impact.

While I love crypto (technically and practially) I do TOTALLY agree that amount of energy wasted for Proof of Work crypto projects is enormous.
That's why we are NOT ONLY focusing on crypto mining hardware and we are also providing immersion cooling ready 19/21'' servers [warranty included]  for AI/ML/Rendering or any other type of HPC projects.

Paweł.

[AVGresponding]

It totally makes sance to reuse heat from servers, cryptominers, rendering farms etc.

By removing fans, lowering working temperatures your are lowering resitance which converts into lower power usage.
With recovered, sometimes MW of power You have heat source capable of heating towns.

Regards, Pawel

Cryptominers should not exist in the first place, they should be illegal to produce and operate. The amount of energy they consume doing useless busy work is obscene and has completely negated all the progress we have made toward greater efficiency and lower environmental impact.

Not all of them. There's one who used to post in this forum (until the TEApocalypse), and she powers her rig using solar PV, and uses the waste heat to help warm her house.
Granted, it's a pretty small set-up in the grand scheme of things, but it does show it's possible.

[felixd]

Make the busy work not useless, as Curecoin and Foldingcoin do. Or make it something that uses less energy, but that's a harder problem to solve in the long term.

If it uses less power it's not going to be worth as much. If you try to make something that consumes little power, someone will just use bigger hardware that uses more power in order to mine it faster. I don't see any way to make it hard to mine that won't also encourage large amounts of power to be used. The entire concept is fundamentally flawed, and all crypto is useless as currency because it is so unstable. If you can make a lot of money investing in it then it's not a good currency.

I do totally agree with You James.
Now imagine, that there is a project where You can share You computional power and get reward in crypto for doing that. It's already there.

But in the end transfering that crypto closes the loop and we are at Your point again. As I have already written. I do love crypto technically but I do totally agree that it's wasting computional power for things that does not require that amount of power. Difficulty for confirming Bitcoin transaction is artificially increased. This is, sadly, how it has been designed.

As I have already mentioned, several times, that is why we are not focusing with our technology strictly only on crypto but also on other applicatioins.

But since crypto is with us and will stay with us and is using enormous amount of electricity it's essential to lower that power usege and RECOVER and REUSE all wasted energy. That's what we are doing.

How much heat is generated by computers that are working?

FlameIT - Immersion Cooling: Is this true that computers convert all electrical energy into heat?

TL;DR: With fans removed and all equimpent immersed You can safely assume that that with 1kW of electrical power going into computer You are getting 1kW of heat

Heat reuse example: We are heating hotel swimming pool



This setup is capable of delivering, constantly 20kW (pumps and heat exchangers were calculated for this amount of heat).

With 20kW of heating power You can for example heat 2000L from 10oC -> 60oC in 6 hours. Now keep in mind that 20kW heat source is constantly on.

That's why 3kW of heating, constantly turned on is capable of heating 140m2 house to 21oC when there is 1oc outside.

[felixd]

It totally makes sance to reuse heat from servers, cryptominers, rendering farms etc.

By removing fans, lowering working temperatures your are lowering resitance which converts into lower power usage.
With recovered, sometimes MW of power You have heat source capable of heating towns.

Regards, Pawel

Cryptominers should not exist in the first place, they should be illegal to produce and operate. The amount of energy they consume doing useless busy work is obscene and has completely negated all the progress we have made toward greater efficiency and lower environmental impact.

Not all of them. There's one who used to post in this forum (until the TEApocalypse), and she powers her rig using solar PV, and uses the waste heat to help warm her house.
Granted, it's a pretty small set-up in the grand scheme of things, but it does show it's possible.

This is exactly what I am doing. You can read about my first, proof of conept installation (still working) we have built back in 2018.

https://flameit.io/assets/pdf/articles/onet-noizz-mines-cryptocurrency-and-heats-house.pdf

Now, my PV installation got a bit bigger. As I have already mentioned, I love to experiment but on myself first
We can experiment WITH customers and we are doing that, of course, with their full awareness of what we are doing and what we are testing.

Regards, Paweł.

[NiHaoMike]

If it uses less power it's not going to be worth as much. If you try to make something that consumes little power, someone will just use bigger hardware that uses more power in order to mine it faster. I don't see any way to make it hard to mine that won't also encourage large amounts of power to be used. The entire concept is fundamentally flawed, and all crypto is useless as currency because it is so unstable. If you can make a lot of money investing in it then it's not a good currency.

Curecoin and Foldingcoin still use a lot of power to mine, but they do medical research in the process so it's not wasteful.

One could also use something other than energy as the limiting factor. There were quite a few smartphone mined coins back in the day which were limited by IP address, with VPN/VPS ranges blacklisted. Most of those failed by greedy exchange operators crashing them. The closed ecosystem they are based on also moderate the value of the coins produced, but introduced many other problems.

In principle, there could be a cryptocurrency mined by seeding content. Basically providing an incentive to create a decentralized alternative to Youtube. But nobody has figured out how to make it work yet.

[jonpaul]

On a more strategic level, Any stats on yearly energy consumption in USA/EU/UK/World for

Bitcoin/cryptcurreny mining
storage of all data on servers?
CPU/GPU consumption of all servers?
Power for maint of internet and link bandwidth?

I think that 90..99 % off all energy use for internet/comm/mobile energy use is consumed for garbage videos/games/cat photos/porn/fraude

This the mining system mentioned here is perhsp using 0.000001% of the energy.

Can we know how  much energy  is wasted by government caused bureaucracy, wars, regulations, taxes, corruption?

Jon

[SiliconWizard]

Beyond what Jon said - indeed a gigantic fraction of the computing energy used worldwide is for spam, shit content, fraud and corruption - a relevant study should compare the overall cost of maintaining cryptocurrencies with the cost of maintaining regular currencies, which is done differently, but also has a gigantic direct, but mostly indirect cost. How much do you think is the cost of "forcing" trust in currencies that would probably have long collapsed otherwise?

[Someone]

On a more strategic level, Any stats on yearly energy consumption in USA/EU/UK/World for

Bitcoin/cryptcurreny mining
storage of all data on servers?
CPU/GPU consumption of all servers?
Power for maint of internet and link bandwidth?

You can readily find sources for estimates of those globally , 0.5-1% for all crypto vs 1% for all other data centres, or 5-10% for all computer/IT/network use.

[felixd]

https://energyinnovation.org/2020/03/17/how-much-energy-do-data-centers-really-use/

What's most important cooling is around 40% of OPEX with average PUE at around 1.6 in average DC.

We are dropping PUE to less than 1.04 with potential to heat recovery and reusage (huge potential)

[madires]

What impact does the mineral oil have on optical connections, e.g. SC?

[jonpaul]

optical connectors relying on an air gap may have de focusing with oil.

Some . fibre connections need a specified oil contact.

Wonder if the issues mentioned with oil immersed computer can be solved,with gas,cooling eg use of,hélium ?

Largest utility generators,are even hydrogen cooled.Con Edison Ravenswood station has " Big Allis" install 1965, 981 Mwattt-~ 1 GW !

now we're talkin power!

Jon

[Gyro]

This is the sort of thing that should be happening much more...

Tiny data centre used to heat public swimming pool

The heat generated by a washing-machine-sized data centre is being used to heat a Devon public swimming pool.

The computers inside the white box are surrounded by oil to capture the heat - enough to heat the pool to about 30C 60% of the time, saving Exmouth Leisure Centre thousands of pounds.

The data centre is provided to the council-run centre free of charge.

Start-up Deep Green charges clients to use its computing power for artificial intelligence and machine learning.

Founder Mark Bjornsgaard said the company would also refund the leisure centre's electricity costs for running the "digital boiler" - and seven other England pools had signed up to the scheme.

...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-64939558

[james_s]

Beyond what Jon said - indeed a gigantic fraction of the computing energy used worldwide is for spam, shit content, fraud and corruption - a relevant study should compare the overall cost of maintaining cryptocurrencies with the cost of maintaining regular currencies, which is done differently, but also has a gigantic direct, but mostly indirect cost. How much do you think is the cost of "forcing" trust in currencies that would probably have long collapsed otherwise?

I think everyone not directly benefiting from it would love to see spam outlawed and shut down. I fully support shutting down spam and crypto, they're both a complete waste of energy and neither will ever be truly useful outside of criminal enterprise and scammy stuff.

[jonpaul]

thinking of the energy wasted in creating, stories and serving

Videos
Games
Grambling
Pornographie
so,called "Crypto Currency"


Jon

I bet it's,a,huge fraction of total energy use...

[abeyer]

Largest utility generators,are even hydrogen cooled.

Let's just not let OVH try that! 

[NiHaoMike]

thinking of the energy wasted in creating, stories and serving

Videos
Games
Grambling
Pornographie
so,called "Crypto Currency"


Jon

I bet it's,a,huge fraction of total energy use...

I recall that online video uses less energy than driving to the library to rent a DVD even just one mile away. The difference is even greater for audio and text.

[madires]

Largest utility generators,are even hydrogen cooled.

Let's just not let OVH try that! 

That's mean! But since we're talking about fire, wouldn't mineral oil increase the probabilty and severity of a disaster?

[Gyro]

You could certainly argue that, at the worst case Oxygen contamination, Hydrogen would just cause 'rapid unplanned disassembly', while oil cause slower but much wider destruction.

[tom66]

Cryptominers should not exist in the first place, they should be illegal to produce and operate. The amount of energy they consume doing useless busy work is obscene and has completely negated all the progress we have made toward greater efficiency and lower environmental impact.

Well, not sure about totally negated the progress, but definitely agreed it's useless work and bad for the planet.

[Bud]

Great way to burn your solar panel excess energy produced on a sunny day.