something is leaking in europe

[coppercone2]

https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/20/06/29/0350216/mysterious-spike-in-radioactivity-over-northern-europe-accident-at-russian-nuclear-plant-suspected

[daqq]

Oh good, because 2020 was such a delightful year so far. Now we get to have a Chernobyl rerun!

[jogri]

Hmm, another option would be that someone screwed up the disassembly of a nuclear sub:

-In order to get such a leak in a normal power plant you have to have a leak in both the fuel cell AND the primary cooling loop, and you normally have detectors to detect if a fuel cell is leaking into the water-> rather unlikely that someone didn't detect the leak AND someone accidentally vented the primary cooling system.

-nuclear subs get disassembled in the Kola bay (right at the border to Finland, most northern point), that region is not too far away from the 72h source region

-most subs use highly enriched U-235, you get the same fission products as normal nuclear power plants

-would also explain the Russian statement that both power plants are working normally

[tom66]

Let's top off 2020 with a nuclear accident.  As if Covid-19 and the associated economic disaster wasn't enough.

[Porenbeton]

Lets just hope that its just a instrumentation fault or the reading comes from some not yet considered/found source (like jogri said, nuclear fission powered submarines sound plausible).
I doubt that it could be a plant, they dont build them like they used to when chernobyl was still operating, the plant in chernobyl had positive feedback considering the temperature/power curve.
Meaning increase in temperature would increase the power, which would again increase temperature and so on until meltdown. So afaik catastrophic meltdown shouldnt be actually possible with modern reactors (but im not an expert obviously so that is only a thought), since they should react the opposite way (higher temperature -> decrease in power output).

Also this isnt the 80s anymore with communist russia. I think if something in this scale happened, that it wouldnt take even 5 minutes until the social medias are full of it with videos/pictures etc.

[David Hess]

-would also explain the Russian statement that both power plants are working normally

The Russians reported that nothing had happened at the Chernobyl power plant after they knew about the accident which also explains their current statements.  Why would you trust anything they say about such incidents?

Also this isnt the 80s anymore with communist russia. I think if something in this scale happened, that it wouldnt take even 5 minutes until the social medias are full of it with videos/pictures etc.

Russia is still Russia.  If they had a nuclear accident, they will by default initially deny it.

[RoGeorge]

[Rick Law]

Let's top off 2020 with a nuclear accident.  As if Covid-19 and the associated economic disaster wasn't enough.

Ahem, as I was reading this reply,  I was recalling that 2020 is forecast to be a heavy solar flare year... Imagine closing the year with something like the March 1989 Quebec Canada black out, times 10 and global. 

The virus problem was made much worst by some government decisions at least here in the USA.  I am sure they will make equally bad decisions during a nation-wide blackout.  I better start recharging all my batteries.

[edy]

I have always wanted to buy a Geiger counter or radiometer or other instrument that measures such incidents. I was also thinking to build from schematics and simply buy a Geiger–Müller tube. However, I'm at a loss as to what kind of instrument will do the job. Obviously they cover different types of radiation, calibrated to handle different level ranges, and so on. So what does someone buy? On a budget... Here are examples, many of which are under $100, some under $50. Anyone have experience with something reliable and does the job and good value:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Geiger-Counter-Nuclear-Radiation-Detector-Beta-Gamma-X-Ray-Dosimeter-Monitor/163564446468





https://www.ebay.com/itm/GQ-GMC-320-Plus-Nuclear-Geiger-Counter-Radiation-Detector/133436410612




Open Source assembled kit with tube:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Geiger-Counter-Radiation-Detector-Module-with-LCD-Display-Open-Source-DIY/114017690530




https://www.ebay.com/itm/Handheld-Geiger-Counter-Nuclear-Radiation-Detector-Meter-Digital-for/114017691137




And then there are tons of these Civil Defence Geiger Counter kits. I'm not sure what the different components are. I see a "charging box" and some long cylindrical tubes. Can anyone explain a bit about whether these are any use for the type of radiation leaks we are seeing or is this for another purpose:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CD-V-777-Vintage-Civil-Defense-Radiation-Fallout-Detection-Kit-Set-w-Box/163488683740




And short of a nuclear catastrophe can we use any of these for fun educational experiments like measuring basement radon leaks, smoke detector radiation source, marble countertops, various rocks and so on?

There is one more conclusion which is really none of the above instruments are worth buying, some may be gimmicks and some may be too limited in scope of use or type of radiation capable of being detected. Since alpha would be almost impossible to detect unless you were directly on top of the sample, and beta would also be limited in penetration and you'd have to be very close, that leaves Gamma/Xray and Neutrons. Of course you'd still have no idea what isotope was causing the radiation (unless you knew details on the source) but at least you'd know what and where.

[RoGeorge]

It's not necessary to buy your own detector.

There are many radiation level monitoring networks running for years already.  Some of them are independent networks, and you can see live radiation overlapped on top of Google maps.  Search for "live radiation levels map", or similar words.

[Nusa]

-would also explain the Russian statement that both power plants are working normally

The Russians reported that nothing had happened at the Chernobyl power plant after they knew about the accident which also explains their current statements.  Why would you trust anything they say about such incidents?

Also this isnt the 80s anymore with communist russia. I think if something in this scale happened, that it wouldnt take even 5 minutes until the social medias are full of it with videos/pictures etc.

Russia is still Russia.  If they had a nuclear accident, they will by default initially deny it.

Chernobyl is in Ukraine near the Belarus border. Not in Russia at all. All of those, and quite a few others, were part of the USSR, which broke up about 5 years after the accident.

[jogri]

I have always wanted to buy a Geiger counter or radiometer or other instrument that measures such incidents. I was also thinking to build from schematics and simply buy a Geiger–Müller tube. However, I'm at a loss as to what kind of instrument will do the job. Obviously they cover different types of radiation, calibrated to handle different level ranges, and so on. So what does someone buy? On a budget... Here are examples, many of which are under $100, some under $50. Anyone have experience with something reliable and does the job and good value:

And short of a nuclear catastrophe can we use any of these for fun educational experiments like measuring basement radon leaks, smoke detector radiation source, marble countertops, various rocks and so on?

There is one more conclusion which is really none of the above instruments are worth buying, some may be gimmicks and some may be too limited in scope of use or type of radiation capable of being detected. Since alpha would be almost impossible to detect unless you were directly on top of the sample, and beta would also be limited in penetration and you'd have to be very close, that leaves Gamma/Xray and Neutrons. Of course you'd still have no idea what isotope was causing the radiation (unless you knew details on the source) but at least you'd know what and where.

Let's just put it this way: If you encounter a nuclear incident that gets detected by one of those you are f***ed. A GM tube doesn't discriminate between different types of radiation, it is charged to a point where any extra energy that gets put in triggers a discharge of the entire tube-> that's why they are so pouplar and why they "click": The discharge is strong enough (and uniform as the entire tube discharges every single time) to power a loudspeaker. The only way you would detect something with a GM tube is when it significantly overpowers the natural background radiation->no bueno for you.

If you want to detect such events you need something that can discriminate between ions with different energies: That's a scintillator counter, and it is effing expensive (basically a orange sized monocrystal mounted on top of a photomultiplier).

Back to your GM counters: If you want to play around with it and see what emits radiation they are optimal, but you won't be able to detect radon and smoke alarms: All Radon isotopes decay via alpha radiation, the same goes for the Americium used in old smoke alarms: Only alpha, because they needed something that can ionize smoke particles-> let's just shoot them with really fat positive ions and hope they stick. Charged ions-> gamma is out. Alpha, because helium nuclei are way bigger than electrons.

[edy]

Thanks for the explanations.... I started reading up on the difference and encountered this chapter on the web discussing GM vs Scintillation detectors to help me understand:

http://webfiles.ehs.ufl.edu/rssc_stdy_chp_4.pdf

[helius]

I don't have the spare $ for such a toy, but if I did I would get a Gamma Scout ($400) or an Automess 6150AD ($400). These are the units used by bionerd23 in her videos at Chernobyl, and both have the ability to measure different types of radiation (gamma, beta, and alpha) either built-in (with the Gamma Scout), or using accessory probes (for the Automess).

Cheap geiger counters are generally gamma only, which has limitations since the "hot particles" ejected during a meltdown are alpha emitters. Another important point is that the counters that read in Rads or Rem are not going to be accurate with different isotopes. Dose-equivalents can only be calibrated for specific isotopes and not for unknowns. With unknowns, you are just looking for counts per minute as the detector cannot differentiate between events that trigger a discharge in the GM tube.

Scintillation detectors would seem to be less sensitive and less desirable, but the energy of the particle does change the output, so they can be built as spectrometers for profiling different isotopes.

[jogri]

I don't have the spare $ for such a toy, but if I did I would get a Gamma Scout ($400) or an Automess 6150AD ($400). These are the units used by bionerd23 in her videos at Chernobyl, and both have the ability to measure different types of radiation (gamma, beta, and alpha) either built-in (with the Gamma Scout), or using accessory probes (for the Automess).

Cheap geiger counters are generally gamma only, which has limitations since the "hot particles" ejected during a meltdown are alpha emitters.

Yeah, but you don't really need to measure alphas as they are only extremely dangerous when they are airborn and their concentration would be too low to be detected by normal alpha counters (unless you point it at a HEPA filter with a suction fan behind).

[coppercone2]

these detectors might not be all you need to measure dust. You might need a accumulator (filter) and air sampling at high rate to normalize levels, and you might need to fly a plane with a filter around to normalize levels.

And you might need to use radar to find targets to investigate (i.e. stuff traveling clumped).. it may be a regular occurrence for something to travel in a group in some area but it might not always be in the same exact position.

I.e. after this many hours of operation this membrane is normally at this radiation level in this environment.

[jogri]

these detectors might not be all you need to measure dust. You might need a accumulator (filter) and air sampling at high rate to normalize levels, and you might need to fly a plane with a filter around to normalize levels.

About that... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1211th_Test_Squadron They basically flew jets through mushroom clouds to collect radioactive dust. So yeah, you can do it but you probably shouldn't.

(You probably also don't need a radar to find your target in this case...)

[coppercone2]

i meant over the bodies of water where those submarines are supposedly located

[amyk]

I've read that the civil defence ones are extremely low sensitivity, to the point that if the needle moves at all, you're already in big trouble.

[coppercone2]

yes the idea is that they are reliable and allow for soldiers and relief workers to avoid areas that will certainly kill them in order to perform other useful operations. If those are used society is probably so screwed that long term radiation poisoning down the line ending your retirement early is the least of your concerns. Not to mention its going to be cheap since no one wants to use it.

[jmelson]

-In order to get such a leak in a normal power plant you have to have a leak in both the fuel cell AND the primary cooling loop, and you normally have detectors to detect if a fuel cell is leaking into the water-> rather unlikely that someone didn't detect the leak AND someone accidentally vented the primary cooling system.

True for pressurized water reactors (PWR), there's a primary cooling loop under enough pressure to not boil, and a secondary loop that boils to provide steam for the turbine.

But, there are a fair number of boiling water reactors (BWR) that generate steam in the reactor pressure vessel and pipe this straight to the turbine.  The turbine shafts exit from the condenser side of the turbine, where the condenser provides a pretty strong vacuum.  That causes air to be sucked in at the shaft seals.  So, they have vacuum pumps that remove the air, to keep the condenser working properly.
Unfortunately, any radionuclides that leak into the cooling loop end up going through the vacuum pumps. Remember the Fukushima plants had those tall "smokestacks" painted with red/white stripes?  Those were to vent off the gas from the turbines, and they had a steady stream of nuclides in them under normal operation.

They do water treatment on PWRs that removes the gases and nuclides, but in that case they can capture them in tanks and let them decay before release.

Jon

[jogri]

True for pressurized water reactors (PWR), there's a primary cooling loop under enough pressure to not boil, and a secondary loop that boils to provide steam for the turbine.

But, there are a fair number of boiling water reactors (BWR) that generate steam in the reactor pressure vessel and pipe this straight to the turbine.  The turbine shafts exit from the condenser side of the turbine, where the condenser provides a pretty strong vacuum.  That causes air to be sucked in at the shaft seals.  So, they have vacuum pumps that remove the air, to keep the condenser working properly.
Unfortunately, any radionuclides that leak into the cooling loop end up going through the vacuum pumps. Remember the Fukushima plants had those tall "smokestacks" painted with red/white stripes?  Those were to vent off the gas from the turbines, and they had a steady stream of nuclides in them under normal operation.

They do water treatment on PWRs that removes the gases and nuclides, but in that case they can capture them in tanks and let them decay before release.

Jon

You still need two separate failures before isotopes from nuclear fission get released into the atmosphere:
-one of the fuel cells has to rupture/get a tear in order to get those isotopes into the cooling loop
-the containment of the cooling loop has to fail to get them into the atmosphere

Yeah, could be that one of the RBMKs in Leningrad has had a failure (this somehow sounds familiar…). If i remember correctly those designs didn't employ a second containment around the core, so they could have had a ruptured fuel cell, had to remove it from the core and it vented some gas when it was out of the reactor->not everything went through the filters. Makes you wonder how on earth they planned to safely remove broken fuel rods from this reactor design...
(Edit: that still wouldn't explain the clearly airborne caesium: Those reactors use light water as a coolant, the caesium would have reacted with it to form highly soluble caesium hydroxide->perfectly bound in the water of the cooling loop. So we can conclude that the source of this radiation spike was probably NOT sitting inside a water pool (water would have also captured dust too).)

The isotope distribution (Cs-134 vs 137) could give a hint of how old the damaged fuel cell was (extremely old would point to subs, newer fuel to a power plant), but i'm not sure if they are going to release that data to the general public. And even then, you'd need data at which point in the fuel cycle each isotope gets created, and i'm sure that such data can't be found on Wikipedia.

[David Hess]

And then there are tons of these Civil Defence Geiger Counter kits. I'm not sure what the different components are. I see a "charging box" and some long cylindrical tubes. Can anyone explain a bit about whether these are any use for the type of radiation leaks we are seeing or is this for another purpose:

Most of the Civil Defense instruments using ionization chambers which are much more useful for detecting immediate hazards where a Geiger counter would have saturated resulting in a measured level which could be orders of magnitude low.

On the other hand, a Geiger counter is exactly what is needed to test air samples like coppercone2 mentioned.  With some care, you could check your basement for radon with one.

I've read that the civil defence ones are extremely low sensitivity, to the point that if the needle moves at all, you're already in big trouble.

But you would be in even worse trouble with a Geiger counter which unknown to you is saturated producing an erroneously low measurement.

Remember at the start of Chernobyl where the radiation reading was "only" 3.5 rems per hour?  In a similar incident in the US at Stationary Low-Power Reactor Number One, when emergency personnel showed up with ionization meters, they backed off because they got a true reading of the incredible radiation hazard which was present.

Chernobyl is in Ukraine near the Belarus border. Not in Russia at all. All of those, and quite a few others, were part of the USSR, which broke up about 5 years after the accident.

I was keeping things simple.  Chernobyl was controlled by and the responsibility of the Soviets.  The Russians now saying that nothing is wrong are the descendants, in the continuity and political sense, as the Soviets who brought us Chernobyl.  Has Ukraine said anything about it?

I am amazed China has not had a similar accident but they have managed to kill more people with failing dams.

[Nusa]

Some news links?

He's probably referring to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Banqiao_Dam_failure.

Many of the details were classified by China until 2005, but it's now clear it was a disaster arguably comparable to Chernobyl.

It's probably before your time, and the government has changed since then. But one can say the same thing about Chernobyl.

[Buriedcode]

Some news links?

He's probably referring to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Banqiao_Dam_failure.

Many of the details were classified by China until 2005, but it's now clear it was a disaster arguably comparable to Chernobyl.

It's probably before your time, and the government has changed since then. But one can say the same thing about Chernobyl.

Yeah the death toll on that link is "85,600 to 240,000".  Chernobyl was "projected" at 4000 (actual reported, 90).  Or are you comparing the two in terms of land area affected?