Shenzhen: The Silicon Valley of Hardware - WIRED Documentary

[Marco]

Now we have central planing - Common Core, which will ensure no one excels.

How so? AFAICS acceleration/grade skipping and AP classes were the main US method for the gifted to excel, to me it seems much more common in the US than many other nations with supposedly high education standards. I think you got it right too, getting them through the basics fast (ie. high shool and bachelor's) will help the gifted more than trying to keep them entertained with extra classes as you effectively hold them back.

Has common core made acceleration more difficult?

Compared to TIMSS (Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study), Common Core is dangerously inadequate.

Really? I think the common core math curriculum is too advanced for a comprehensive education. Now of course the whole concept of comprehensive high school curricula is a bit retarded, but I don't see how making it more advanced could make them adequate. Good for the colleges who can cut some maths out of their curriculum I guess, but even more out of touch with the needs of the non gifted.

[Bud]

When i do my research of a subject using IEEE papers, it is practically garanteed it was written by Chinese authors or co-authors. The University of Toronto and University of Waterloo in Canada Computer Science programs are dominated by Chinese students, bright and with high grades. With Chinese excelling in academic records it is beyond my understanding why so much junk products come out of China. There seems to be a disconnect between thinking and doing abilities.

[Marco]

How often do you do a literary search for older papers on the same topic?

[zapta]

Hard to find real gauge for measurement, but PISA is closest to quantifying education outcome.    Finland and Netherlands not withstanding, China is running circles around the rest of us in the "west".

That's an unfair comparison, they are a more intelligent race.

https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country

[dannyf]

they are a more intelligent race.

by that particular measure. Whether that particular measure is the right measure or unbiased measure can be debated.

[dannyf]

I think it is high time we redo college loan and federal aid.

Teachers and highly paid administrators are a key voting block for a certain party. People like Elizabeth Warren (paid $750K/yr for 9months of non value-add work at her university job) will make sure that the average taxpayers continue to struggle to support the nice jobs that the college professors have so they can research into new ways to screw the poor tax payers.

College loans and federal aids for education is a modern day enslavery of our young and our poor, for the benefits of the rich and elite. The kind of reverse robinhood that is a hallmark of this "fairness" driven society.

[dannyf]

"standard have seriously crashed"

There are two schools / colleges in the us. The "feel good" trend has seriously degraded education for an average student in a typical school or college. No doubt about that.

However, in elite schools (both private and good public schools), the AP classes offered during the senior year are seriously advanced vs. Back when I was in highschool (I'm a highschool drop out).

Schools like Dearborn or choate also follow this bifurcation. Students with drive can receive a great education while student without can receive good grades.

From timing perspective, too much is cramped into the senior year so it can be struggle.

The situation is similar at college level but more extreme.

[dannyf]

Such a system creates a sad dynamic. Education is the best tool to create upward mobility. But for low income families, they don't understand how important to keep their kids in school, or they live in such an environment where it is impossible to keep their kids in school.

Poor education offered to those kids becomes a tool to perpetuate poverty, to create a permanent underclass in a society.

Yet, no one is talking about the waste of a massive scale of our most precious resource: a human mind.

As a staunch opponent of race based AA, I'm a staunch supporter of an AA program that is based on social economic status. If a kid from a struggle family in the inner city had the same score as my kids do, he or she has more potential and I don't mind paying for his or her education.

[tronde]

With Chinese excelling in academic records it is beyond my understanding why so much junk products come out of China. There seems to be a disconnect between thinking and doing abilities.

No, no disconnect there. China has about 1.3 billion people. Some of them are really smart, and will excel in academics. Alot of the rest will do what they can to stay alive and improve their lives.

Read some Chinese history. You will find centuries with really crazy emperors. You will find a lot of disaster and hunger. And you will find Mao and his Graet Leap and Culture revolution. This has made them aware thay can't  expect tomorrow to be better than today. If you had this buried deep in your own history, you would probably grab what's available today instead of taking it easy and wait for something even better tomorrow. As things calm down and stabilise, they will most likely adopt to a business culture more like win-win than the zero-sum that is more or less pre-dominat today.

Today's China is a young nation. You will not find many pepole with higher education older than about 60 years old. A lot of knowledge and experience got lost during the Mao era.

[coppice]

When i do my research of a subject using IEEE papers, it is practically garanteed it was written by Chinese authors or co-authors. The University of Toronto and University of Waterloo in Canada Computer Science programs are dominated by Chinese students, bright and with high grades. With Chinese excelling in academic records it is beyond my understanding why so much junk products come out of China. There seems to be a disconnect between thinking and doing abilities.

Engineers don't make the best things they can. They make what their employers and customers want. There is a close relationship between the development of Walmart and the development of modern China. Walmart wants a LOT of cheap junk, so an entire generation of Chinese engineers have trained in the art of making the cheapest thing they can, regardless of the quality of the result. There's a lot of first class engineering in China, but the market for cheap and nasty junk is so big its what you mostly see.

[dannyf]

"You will not find many pepole with higher education older than about 60 years old"

Depending on your definition of "many" but they crank out close to 10 million new college graduates every year and that production is accelerating.

China beats out the us in total college enrollment. And while stats are sketch, ibsusoect that they beat out the us in stem enrollment and graduates as well.

Likely they beat out Europe on those two measures as well.

[dannyf]

"t is beyond my understanding why so much junk products come out of China."

Because westerners love cheap junks.

Whenever there is a demand, there will be a supply.

[CraigHB]

China's industrial goal is to make the cheapest products.  They're really good at making things cheaply and they're pretty much taking over the world's industry that way.  That's their strategy, undercut the next guy.  The Chinese government also keeps their exchange rate low to further advance that goal.  The strategy is working brilliantly.  So if engineers are directed to build something as cheaply as possible, they design what they are asked to.  Not all of their industry is like that.  It is mostly, but I have seen decent products originate from China.

For domestic companies it's all about the bottom line.  Consumers are mainly driven by cost and companies are mainly driven by profit margin.  It's capitalism and short sighted thinking.  As mentioned earlier companies export production to China to reduce overhead and increase profit.  Then they're put out of business some time later by the Chinese industrial machine.  Not very smart for these domestic companies in terms of self-preservation, but all they care about is the next quarterly report. 

Problem is once one competitor exports production to China the others have to follow to compete.  Everyone ends up in China.  That will be the case until a new cheaper labor market emerges.  I think at some point what happened to Japan will also happen to China.  When it's no longer cheaper to produce things in China capitalists will find another cheap labor market to exploit.

[Cerebus]

How so? AFAICS acceleration/grade skipping and AP classes were the main US method for the gifted to excel, to me it seems much more common in the US than many other nations with supposedly high education standards. I think you got it right too, getting them through the basics fast (ie. high shool and bachelor's) will help the gifted more than trying to keep them entertained with extra classes as you effectively hold them back.

I'm in the position of having known quite a large number of children who were labelled as 'gifted' - i.e. outstanding intelligence - in the UK and having known them from childhood quite some way into adulthood. The ones who followed a fairly normal educational route, proceeding at the same rate as similarly aged students, turned into much better balanced adults than the ones who went down the accelerated route (skipping years in school, going to university at 16 etc). Social development takes time, no matter how intelligent you are, and those who were forced into a educational cohort that was significantly older then themselves suffered socially as a result, sometimes catastrophically.

[Bud]

How often do you do a literary search for older papers on the same topic?

Not often because i do not want obsolete information.

[rx8pilot]

I'm in the position of having known quite a large number of children who were labelled as 'gifted' - i.e. outstanding intelligence - in the UK and having known them from childhood quite some way into adulthood. The ones who followed a fairly normal educational route, proceeding at the same rate as similarly aged students, turned into much better balanced adults than the ones who went down the accelerated route (skipping years in school, going to university at 16 etc). Social development takes time, no matter how intelligent you are, and those who were forced into a educational cohort that was significantly older then themselves suffered socially as a result, sometimes catastrophically.

I will agree with that. There is no known way to accelerate social development - and no need. Personally, my performance in school was dismal yet I have conquered numerous careers and businesses by way of drive and constant self-education. I learn in my own weird way and school was always a terrible experience. Most adults thought I did not care or had no interest, but that is not true. Early on, I was labeled as gifted because I did very well on placement tests. Some thought I was bored and should skip a grade to keep my interest up - that would have been a disaster since my social development was lagging most of my class mates. So thankful that did not happen. I believe that gave me a normal adulthood.

While I am always dismayed and upset at blatant copy cats, I see the the Chinese people as a whole have a drive to move up. Now that the world has effectively financed their ultra-fast manufacturing - all they need now is creative designers and engineers to make true originals. That is scary to me. As a designer and engineer - I have no financially practical way to produce what I design here. My only viable business option is to make it in China and then I have to worry about it being copied anyone as my IP is likely traded amongst the community. I am not sure I could possibly design fast enough to keep up with that. Maybe my solution is to sell designs outright and move on to the next thing? Be a pure designer and don't bother with manufacture and sales.

[tggzzz]

How often do you do a literary search for older papers on the same topic?

Not often because i do not want obsolete information.

The problem with that attitude is that in many cases the "new information" is simply a poor "recapitulation" of information in the primary sources.

Too often academic's productivity is measured by weight, not quality. (Hence the damnable concept of "the least publishable unit", and the damaging changing of terminology without bothering to inform the reader.)

[Marco]

I'm in the position of having known quite a large number of children who were labelled as 'gifted' - i.e. outstanding intelligence - in the UK and having known them from childhood quite some way into adulthood. The ones who followed a fairly normal educational route, proceeding at the same rate as similarly aged students, turned into much better balanced adults than the ones who went down the accelerated route (skipping years in school, going to university at 16 etc). Social development takes time, no matter how intelligent you are, and those who were forced into a educational cohort that was significantly older then themselves suffered socially as a result, sometimes catastrophically.

Nowadays there is the problem that the modern tertiary education system giving little room for error. In the old days a gifted student who got lazy in secondary education could spend a few years rediscovering the ability to put in effort, room increasingly eliminated.

[Rick Law]

Now we have central planing - Common Core, which will ensure no one excels.

How so? AFAICS acceleration/grade skipping and AP classes were the main US method for the gifted to excel, to me it seems much more common in the US than many other nations with supposedly high education standards. I think you got it right too, getting them through the basics fast (ie. high shool and bachelor's) will help the gifted more than trying to keep them entertained with extra classes as you effectively hold them back.

Has common core made acceleration more difficult?

First, your question "Has common core made acceleration more difficult?"
Yes because it gives schools the excuse not to do more.  Further, Common Core is both less comprehensive and slower.  It slows kids down because some of the requirements are pushed back.
For example, according to Pioneer Institute (research paper #65, Common Core Standard): "Overall, Common Core's preparation for Algebra 1 falls a year or two behind the standards in California and high achieving nations."  I don't have permission to upload the 60 page report, you can search for them.  This is but one of many examples.

That said, I do not promote the idea of skipping grades.  It causes two problems in my view: (a) that you did great in addition/subtraction last year doesn't mean you can skip learning multiply/division this year, and (b) upon skipping a grade, students often turn from begin leaders to being followers due to the more mature classmates a year older than the grade skipper.

Instead, I like more comprehensive classes.  A great example is (AP) Calculus AB verses (AP) Calculus BC.  Both covers almost the same subjects but BC is far more comprehensive than the AB sequence.  I prefer a firm foundation more than a wimpy foundation faster.

Compared to TIMSS (Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study), Common Core is dangerously inadequate.

Really? I think the common core math curriculum is too advanced for a comprehensive education. Now of course the whole concept of comprehensive high school curricula is a bit retarded, but I don't see how making it more advanced could make them adequate. Good for the colleges who can cut some maths out of their curriculum I guess, but even more out of touch with the needs of the non gifted.

Yes, really - compare TIMSS side by side with MA/CA and Common Core side-by-side topic by topic, TIMSS A+ countries teaches more topics and teaches them sooner.  The math curriculum doesn't even come close to being competitive let alone advanced.  Following the standard at its pace, the student would barely get Algebra II done let alone pre-Calc or Calculus.

For the examples below, I use Massachusetts(MA)/California(CA) old standards as they were higher than other States.  Again, this is not to say they met their own standard.  So don't need to argue regarding actual level reached.

(a) Major topics grade 4 to grade 8
TIMSS A+:  16 - 22
MA:/CA: 16-21
Common Core*: 7-15

(b) Slow pace, for example:
TIMSS A+, MA/CA's:finish learning of addition and subtraction for numbers of any size by 3rd grade, multiplication on by 4th grade and division by 5th grade.
Common Core*: Student learn up to 3 digits addition and subtraction, 2 digit multiplication/subtraction.  Student are not expected to learn the multiplication table to 100.

*I am using the initial (2010) Common Core standard that States wanting funding must pass legislation to support.  That in my layman's view is the legally binding one.

Edit: (added and removed again)
I've said enough about education.  I touched on that because some of us are so full of ourselves thinking we are so much smarter.  I want to at least inject the idea that we may not be as hot as we think.  In fact, I think we are quite behind the 8-ball.

[julian1]

China can manufacture anything. From the cheapest Walmart junk demanded by the Western consumer, to high-end Keithley instruments, airbus components or pebble-bed nuclear reactors.

If they can manage to keep a lid on the housing/asset bubble, and avoid a Japanese 'lost-decade' collapse, nothing will stop them.

[Rick Law]

China can manufacture anything. From the cheapest Walmart junk demanded by the Western consumer, to high-end Keithley instruments, airbus components or pebble-bed nuclear reactors.

If they can manage to keep a lid on the housing/asset bubble, and avoid a Japanese 'lost-decade' collapse, nothing will stop them.

They too are subjected to complacency.

These last decade or two, China was hungry.  People are/were hard driving and ambitious.  We don't know that if the attribute that lead to the climb would stay once their living standard gets near parity with "the West".  They may well fall into being too comfortable and forgot the hard-work that help them stay up.

[Marco]

Yes, really - compare TIMSS side by side with MA/CA and Common Core side-by-side topic by topic, TIMSS A+ countries teaches more topics and teaches them sooner.

To me it seems they are either ethnically non diverse and/or don't have comprehensive education.

Singapore is probably closest to the US, but the vast majority is still Chinese ethnicity and their education is non comprehensive. Japan's senior years (like Finland's) are voluntary and selective, making life a little easier for them to make a senior curriculum on top of the ethnic homogeneity.

[tronde]

The Chinese government also keeps their exchange rate low to further advance that goal.

If they increase the exchange rate, they will pay less for raw materials.  The cost of raw materials in a product are usually much higher than the cost of Chinese labour. If they increase the exchange rate enough, you can end up with an even cheaper product...

[CM800]

This kind of thing really worrys me in terms of china & the future.

I'm 20, beginning to get into electronics design more seriously as a job... am I barking up the wrong tree? Am I about to have no viable future career / healthy pay-check because the next Generation of ultra-performing chinese students will take every oppertunity I can get my hands on?

What can I do about it or am I going to have no job options in 20 years when I'm 40?

[Rick Law]

Yes, really - compare TIMSS side by side with MA/CA and Common Core side-by-side topic by topic, TIMSS A+ countries teaches more topics and teaches them sooner.

To me it seems they are either ethnically non diverse and/or don't have comprehensive education.

Singapore is probably closest to the US, but the vast majority is still Chinese ethnicity and their education is non comprehensive. Japan's senior years (like Finland's) are voluntary and selective, making life a little easier for them to make a senior curriculum on top of the ethnic homogeneity.

Forgive me, I am lost!

How does lack of ethnic diversity relates to (or results in) a less comprehensive education?  I don't see ethnic diversity and comprehensiveness of education has anything to do with each other at all.