Sending Faxes without a land line in late 2018??.............

[Smokey]

I just ran into a silly government form that can only be submitted by fax.  Now I understand my problem of needing to send one single fax is easily solved by any number of methods including online services or going to a physical mailbox store and having them send it for a fee....
but..
.. I'm a nerd that needs to find the most difficult and convoluted yet technically possible solution, so I started thinking about what that may look like.  I did a quick forum search, and this was all I came up with:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/why-wont-fax_s-just-die-already/

What I have available is a cell phone, a PC and internet connection (and google voice), and I actually also have a multifunction printer with fax machine (but no land line).  I've read that due to the modern compression used in digital voice calls that old school data connections no longer work.  But I've also found some places that claim you can sustain a lowish datarate connection through google voice.

Some interesting resources are:
https://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/21459/send-receive-faxes-through-google-voice-without-using-a-fax-machine

I like the idea of setting up a sip to land line box like this and connecting it to the multi-function, but that means I would need to buy hardware.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0045RMEPI/

It strikes me that an android app should exist that would just generate the tones for a fax and dump that over whatever the voice connection happens to be, but I couldn't find anything like that.

Thoughts?

[kripton2035]

eFax.com 30 days free trial service ?

[darrellg]

https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-online-fax-services/
https://faxzero.com/

It's not worth the hassle of trying to do it the other way when it's so simple to just use a free fax service.

[Halcyon]

I work for an organisation that is still a heavy user of fax (Government). Anything unclass. goes over fax or email. However almost the entire network is based on Cisco VoIP. I'm not sure what Cisco do different to carrier-grade gear, but fax still seems to work quite well at a minimum of 14.4kbit/sec and up to 33.6kbit/sec for Super-G3 devices (which are most of them on the network).

[Smokey]

Just got back from the mailbox store.  $5usd for a 4 page fax.  Silly, but I did it anyway because I was there and hopefully it will be another 10 years before I need to do that again.  If I had to do this more often then that would not be sustainable.

I checked out the free link and it wouldn't have worked due to the 3 page limit.

It still strikes me that there is a simple technical solution for which we already have all the pieces but no one has put them together yet.

[Halcyon]

It still strikes me that there is a simple technical solution for which we already have all the pieces but no one has put them together yet.

I was just thinking that there could be several reasons why fax is still being used, the biggest reason I can think of is that the majority of the population can't be trusted or don't know how to scan a document properly, whether the resolution is crap or they stuff the contrast up. At least with fax, users can shove paper the correct way around and dial number and it'll be received in a decent condition at the other end. You'll probably also find most large organisations and Governments receive faxes directly into a virtual mailbox or email.

[cdev]

You can send faxes from some VOIP softphone programs.. Typically you have to turn the pages you want to fax into a PDF.

Just got back from the mailbox store.  $5usd for a 4 page fax.  Silly, but I did it anyway because I was there and hopefully it will be another 10 years before I need to do that again.  If I had to do this more often then that would not be sustainable.

I checked out the free link and it wouldn't have worked due to the 3 page limit.

It still strikes me that there is a simple technical solution for which we already have all the pieces but no one has put them together yet.

[Bud]

I have an actual old school fax machine and it does not work over VOIP. My VOIP provider explained there are conflicting requirements between codecs used for voice and for fax and for obvious reason the provider is using voice codec. Also reconfiguring codecs has to be done on both sides client and VOIP switch which is PITA in itself.

[LaserSteve]

I work for a seriously entrenched goverment agency. Fax gets used because:

1. Instant time stamped and dated hard copy acceptable to lawyers that fits in a filing cabinet.

2. Getting permission to quit fax would require an act of God.

3. A bunch of non-computer literate people want to use what they have used for 30 years.

4. Can't officially dispose of the machine till it is depreciated and or dead. You would be suprised what you find in some brain dead offices,simply because they are too busy or can't be bothered to do the paperwork. A while back i tossed several thousand dead discrete parts from a electronics repair lab, each neatly taped in the plastic bag tbe replacement came in. Excuse: "The Auditor told me keep everything".

5. No on ever told them to stop and what is not directed is not allowed. Which is usually the sign of some one with bad management.

Our office staff still has one fax  built into the photocopier, only because other agencies are still in the dark ages. We stopped 10 years ago and went to pdf.

Speaking personally in this post and not for my employer.

Steve

[cdev]

It can work if you deliberately reduce the speed at which your virtual fax machine communicates. This is sort of like what I used to do with my physical fax machine to get it to work with VOIP, I used an RFI filter to slow it down. I forget the settings, they are buried on a hard drive somewhere. Its been more than 10 years since the last time I used it.

But basically, you need to look for info on I think "T-38" . I used to be able to fax at a fake 14.400 kilobaud without problems, but anything faster would fail.

The goal is reducing the jitter.   

So using the above info you should be able to find more info.

[johnh]

T-38 Good luck with that.  I have seen iads that support it. But, try to send more than handful of page and modems would lose synch.
Some of telco grade mgw don't support it.
 Try sending it over a 4g wireless link , were they don't T38 at all.

[Halcyon]

2. Getting permission to quit fax would require an act of God.

And because god doesn't exist, it'll never happen, right?

I work for a seriously entrenched goverment agency.

I feel your pain. I've worked for various agencies within Government for many years. I could tell you some stories and I think only those who have worked in Government would actually believe most of them.

I actually worked in an area about 8 years ago that still used an electric typewriter to send and receive incoming and outgoing messages from other branches. I kid you not! This was fairly common even well into the 2000's. When I joined that organisation, I questioned my supervisor at the time to try and discover some logic into why we were using a well and truly outdated bit of gear (which kept breaking... I suspect on purpose a lot of the time). I honestly didn't get it because everyone had their own government email address which was good for even protected material as the message never traversed the internet, even between external agencies.

Their only justification was that "it was accountable and traceable". What happened was that each time a message was sent, the next "unique" serial number in the sequence was used, which both ends had. If one person wanted to inquire about the message, they only need quote the message number. Except:

- There was no "backup" copy of the message or the associated index. If the page was removed and lost, there goes the message and all record of it from that branch office.

- Sometimes people couldn't count so occasionally two messages shared the same number. That made things really confusing.

Even after explaining that email kept a permanent record that couldn't be deleted by the end-user and that you could request delivery/read receipts, I was told that the typewriter was staying. I resisted, even developing a Microsoft Word template for the exact same form, but I was told not to use it as it wasn't "official".

 

Eventually the typewriter broke under... ehem... mysterious circumstances and it would be too expensive to repair or replace and that was the end of that.

Honestly, you couldn't make this stuff up!

[tooki]

I actually worked in an area about 8 years ago that still used an electric typewriter to send and receive incoming and outgoing messages from other branches. I kid you not! This was fairly common even well into the 2000's. When I joined that organisation, I questioned my supervisor at the time to try and discover some logic into why we were using a well and truly outdated bit of gear (which kept breaking... I suspect on purpose a lot of the time). I honestly didn't get it because everyone had their own government email address which was good for even protected material as the message never traversed the internet, even between external agencies.
[...]
Eventually the typewriter broke under... ehem... mysterious circumstances and it would be too expensive to repair or replace and that was the end of that.

You mean like an honest-to-goodness teletypewriter? I’ve only seen them in museums...

[Housedad]

I actually worked in an area about 8 years ago that still used an electric typewriter to send and receive incoming and outgoing messages from other branches. I kid you not! This was fairly common even well into the 2000's. When I joined that organisation, I questioned my supervisor at the time to try and discover some logic into why we were using a well and truly outdated bit of gear (which kept breaking... I suspect on purpose a lot of the time). I honestly didn't get it because everyone had their own government email address which was good for even protected material as the message never traversed the internet, even between external agencies.
[...]
Eventually the typewriter broke under... ehem... mysterious circumstances and it would be too expensive to repair or replace and that was the end of that.

You mean like an honest-to-goodness teletypewriter? I’ve only seen them in museums...

NOW I feel old as dirt...

[petert]

Nothing wrong with having experienced things first hand others just heard about.

Not sure where the pride comes from to be born with only the new things available. I find technology from older times much more fascinating, since it's still more understandable.

It's great, you get to use more comfortable tools (well it's not always a progress, but overall), yet have a breadth of experience.

I am not sure when this change happened, but somehow people want to be a blank slate now. Life is all about making experiences, I honestly don't understand this trend.

I used to look back at people older than me with great interest, maybe it's American, idk, though I heard a professor in college complain about the same when he talked to his students about his school time. Personally, I don't get this mindset.

Obviously things will have been different, and some will be foreign. But that's the point, right?
Why would you just talk about things everybody knows anyways.

Another reason why I don't get this group think/generation stuff.

Anyways, finished with my rant

[tooki]

I think you read into my comment a lot of stuff that wasn’t there...

I LOVE old tech. Technology history is one of my very favorite things. I totally understand why we stop using things. But with so much of it, it makes me sad that I never got to see it in operation.

[Halcyon]

I actually worked in an area about 8 years ago that still used an electric typewriter to send and receive incoming and outgoing messages from other branches. I kid you not! This was fairly common even well into the 2000's. When I joined that organisation, I questioned my supervisor at the time to try and discover some logic into why we were using a well and truly outdated bit of gear (which kept breaking... I suspect on purpose a lot of the time). I honestly didn't get it because everyone had their own government email address which was good for even protected material as the message never traversed the internet, even between external agencies.
[...]
Eventually the typewriter broke under... ehem... mysterious circumstances and it would be too expensive to repair or replace and that was the end of that.

You mean like an honest-to-goodness teletypewriter? I’ve only seen them in museums...

No it was a Canon electronic typewriter with the usual ink and correction ribbons.

We would insert the pre-printed message form into it, type out the message then call the other party, read out the message for their "pad" and the typed copy would remain as the record.

[Housedad]

I think you read into my comment a lot of stuff that wasn’t there...

I LOVE old tech. Technology history is one of my very favorite things. I totally understand why we stop using things. But with so much of it, it makes me sad that I never got to see it in operation.

Nah, I read it right.  I have a lousy way of expressing ironic sarcasm, sometimes. 
It just made me realize just how long, long ago it was that I used teletypewriters.  I am a bit nostalgic about the old stuff.   Simpler times.

I loved the Teletype so much that I thought I had gone to heaven when I procured a used DECWriter for my personal use in 1978. (slightly similar machine.)  I was able to get a used Calcomp 563 plotter a year later.  Even though it is long gone, I still have several rolls of paper for it in my basement.  Making the interface circuit and software for 8085 based S100 computer to run it was a major thrill for me back then.

I joke with my kids about my  age all the time.  I'm old enough to be my kids grandfather.

[FedyaTheoderich]

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[PTR_1275]

Speaking of old tech, one of the motor companies (that makes small motors) I sold and serviced at my last job still had in the dealer license contract that you needed to have a microfiche for viewing the service manuals. This is despite having a software / pdf library that was updated yearly and was installed on the workshop computer.

They removed microfiche service manuals from their ordering list in about 2005.

[james_s]

I remember using microfische machines in the library when I was a kid. I don't actually remember when the last time I used one of those was, they were kind of neat though.

[Smokey]

I remember using microfische machines in the library when I was a kid. I don't actually remember when the last time I used one of those was, they were kind of neat though.

Yup.  I was in that same boat.  Just barely caught the end of the typewriter too.

[GlennSprigg]

Not to mention the old 'Linotype' hot-lead machines which were still being used
when I worked as an elect/tech for the 'Advertiser' NewsPaper many decades ago. 

[GlennSprigg]

Re: 'Linotype' machines, for the young or uninitiated...
It was a huge mechanical machine, like this...

where you typed what's going on the newspaper, on the keyboard labeled '1'.
As you typed each line, it would spit out molded lead bars into a stack, that had the text
reversed, as in the following image. (Still hot to touch for a while!!)...

When you had a whole page full, they were set up in a large tray, and a 100 ton press would
imprint a physical copy into a thick sheet (like very dense cardboard), called 'ElephantHide'.
In another machine, this was bent into a half circle, and a new mold made with a mixture of
lead, tin & antimony. (Limited expansion/contraction when hot/cold). 2 of these would make
a complete drum shaped circle, to print the pages on rollers.   
Now it's all computers, and special photo lithography, but still used not too long ago!!!

[schmitt trigger]

I worked as a service engineer for Kodak in 1978/9  for their professional business division, which meant microfilm and microfiches.

I also have a ton of anecdotes, but instead of high jacking this thread, I think it would be best to open a new thread.