Safety Hazards - Have you ever intervened first and THEN explained?

[Brumby]

A few years ago, I dropped in at a local garage sale (yard sale) and pottered around for a minute to see if there were any little treasures, when I happened upon a double adapter which caught my attention.  Without hesitation, I handed over the cash (just $2) and then placed it on the concrete driveway and stomped on it with my steel cap boot, smashing it into oblivion.  The startled householder asked me why I did that and when I explained, he offered me my money back - but I said it was worth the $2 just to know it was never going to be used ever again.  (And, yes, I did pick up all the pieces.)


For those of you that might be wondering, it was the same style as the one at the left of this photo, but without the tape.

... and what these three double adapters have in common is that they all reverse the Live and Neutral pins on one side.

Simplicity of construction lead to this - and here is an interior shot of the middle one, so you can see how it came to be.


But all it took for the same construction technique to provide correct pin orientation was a simple layout change...

[plazma]

Does it matter? European sockets are symmetrical so it does not matter which is live or neutral.

[Philfreeze]

I get that there is a small risk involved in reversing phase and neutral wires, mainly if you want to do some electrical work and you don't notice that they are reversed but it really isn't that bad.
In your everyday use nobody woll notice and it really isn't important if they are reversed or not.

[madires]

Does it matter? European sockets are symmetrical so it does not matter which is live or neutral.

He's in Australia, not Austria If the local standard defines fixed positions for L and N then it's that way. And those wrong wirings can make a lot of fun. Recently I had a 3-phase machine with a motor running in the wrong direction caused by L1 and L3 swapped in the CEE wall socket. BTW, how much one-phase stuff is designed for fixed N and L wiring?

[Brumby]

If you have an incorrectly wired extension lead where the Neutral and Earth have been transposed, then it will function normally and (relatively) safely ... unless you have an RCD breaker in circuit.

Plug this extension lead with the double adapter and your appliance now has Live on the chassis.

As unlikely as this situation may appear, by maintaining correct L & N orientation, the risk to personal safety is reduced.


The other thing is, if you have a device that switches the 'Live' conductor, through this double adapter it will be switching the Neutral.  No power will flow, but the active potential will reside on every other part of the mains circuitry within the device.  Be careful with the case open and power applied....


Besides, it's just as easy to get it right as it is to get it wrong.

[tszaboo]

No. I dont think it is not safe. Schucko is reversible. Italian is reversible. The American is dangerous and reversible. Sometimes it is not even guaranteed that you have neutral in your socket. I think you destroyed something perfectly working.

[Philfreeze]

The other thing is, if you have a device that switches the 'Live' conductor, through this double adapter it will be switching the Neutral.  No power will flow, but the active potential will reside on every other part of the mains circuitry within the device.  Be careful with the case open and power applied....

It is not like you should open something which is pluged into the mains anyway.

[TerraHertz]

It can matter. The switch in an appliance is supposed to be in the Active side, so when it's off there is no power anywhere in the appliance.

Now consider an appliance which has light sockets. With A & N swapped, even when the switch is off, a contact in the socket is live. Changing bulbs, or if there is no bulb, that can be lethal.

Btw, for American readers the N line in the Australian system is at gound potential, while Active is full 240 VAC.

[Brumby]

No. I dont think it is not safe. Schucko is reversible. Italian is reversible. The American is dangerous and reversible. Sometimes it is not even guaranteed that you have neutral in your socket. I think you destroyed something perfectly working.

My $2, my choice ... my peace of mind.

Considering the 'intensity' of EU standards, it seems curious they haven't clamped down on such whimsy.

[Brumby]

The other thing is, if you have a device that switches the 'Live' conductor, through this double adapter it will be switching the Neutral.  No power will flow, but the active potential will reside on every other part of the mains circuitry within the device.  Be careful with the case open and power applied....

It is not like you should open something which is pluged into the mains anyway.

Fault finding in an unpowered device is not a skill I've perfected.

While I concede that anybody poking around inside live equipment is likely to have the good sense to pay appropriate respect to the mains, there is always the danger of 'assumption' or lapses in concentration.

[Brumby]

... and then there are those who should never open anything that is powered by anything bigger than a 'AA'.

[Philfreeze]

... and then there are those who should never open anything that is powered by anything bigger than a 'AA'.

well said.

I just want to clarify. I don't think this is a good idea. We have standards for a reason but I also don't think it is extremly dangerous but again, maybe I just don't think hard enough. 

[Brumby]

While the likelihood of a dangerous situation may not be great, the risk is reduced.

[rolycat]

My favourite dangerous adapter is this deathtrap:



It has handy green switches at each end which pop out prongs for various countries.

The best bit comes if you have it plugged into an extension socket and a curious child or other electrical innocent pushes the other switch - live spikes instantly pop out of the back.

There are various critiques on YouTube, of which the most entertaining is probably by BigClive (search for "electrocute-o-daptor").

[Zbig]

Brumby, you really shouldn't ever visit continental Europe ;-) I have pictured you wielding a hammer, smashing each and every wall socket you come across with fierce passion :-) And "wow, this guy really thinks safety first" isn't exactly the first thought this imagined scene brought in my mind. Sorry!

[nctnico]

It can matter. The switch in an appliance is supposed to be in the Active side, so when it's off there is no power anywhere in the appliance.

That is the worst assumption ever! Wiring can be swapped or you can have a 2 phase supply where each wire is live. Therefore a principal power switch must always have enough poles for all the mains wires (phases + neutral).

[G7PSK]

No. I dont think it is not safe. Schucko is reversible. Italian is reversible. The American is dangerous and reversible. Sometimes it is not even guaranteed that you have neutral in your socket. I think you destroyed something perfectly working.

My $2, my choice ... my peace of mind.

Considering the 'intensity' of EU standards, it seems curious they haven't clamped down on such whimsy.

Just about every portable appliance now is double insulated so polarity should not matter. Beats me why the cables are still colour coded on 2 wire stuff though.

[Artlav]

I wonder what would you do if you encountered this beauty.






But seriously, from my european perspective it's just weird to hear about polarity of the mains.
The only time i needed it is when i tried to connect a lightbulb between a nail stuck into the ground and the "live" pin of the socket...
Yeah, i wonder how i survived childhood sometimes.

[station240]

Last unsafe power double adapter I smashed was the flat variety that only have a single screw between the two outlets. The plastic wasn't strong enough to keep the seam between the two halves from flexing open. Some of these actually got recalled, but they were all dangerous.

For those unaware, in Australia the 240V sockets usually derive power from 3 phase wye. So they neutral comes from that, and is also tied in multiple places to earth.

Hence there is a difference between Neutral and Active. I've seen some circuits powered directly from the mains that tie neutral to the 0V side of the circuit. Imagine the issues should that get miswired power input.

[Aodhan145]

There are various critiques on YouTube, of which the most entertaining is probably by BigClive (search for "electrocute-o-daptor").

+1 this is ridiculous

[Brumby]

Brumby, you really shouldn't ever visit continental Europe ;-) I have pictured you wielding a hammer, smashing each and every wall socket you come across with fierce passion :-) And "wow, this guy really thinks safety first" isn't exactly the first thought this imagined scene brought in my mind. Sorry!

LOL!

No, I wouldn't be quite so passionate - but I would be aware.  (But the image I had of myself doing such a thing was priceless.)

The fact remains, though, that there IS a difference between the Active and Neutral, especially when safety is being considered.  Keeping them consistently on the same pin of any mains outlet has NO downside, whereas allowing them to swap indiscriminately does (however large or small you feel that may be).

The stuff of nightmares:



Correction - that was the stuff of a bad dream ... THIS is the stuff of nightmares:

[Brumby]

It can matter. The switch in an appliance is supposed to be in the Active side, so when it's off there is no power anywhere in the appliance.

That is the worst assumption ever! Wiring can be swapped or you can have a 2 phase supply where each wire is live..

Maybe we in Australia have benefited from lessons learned from the rest of the world, but our domestic supply consists of three 230v phases and a neutral.  Each residence will have 2, 3 or 4 wires coming in from the street - being a neutral and either 1, 2 or 3 phases.  In the earlier days, each property was presented with 3 phase, where circuits around the house were spread across the 3 phases to help balance the phase currents - but these days, the power demands can frequently be satisfied by a single phase to each house and phase current balancing is performed by spreading houses across the phases.

Two wire (excluding earth) devices in Australia are supplied by one active phase and a neutral (which is tied to ground somewhere along the way).  The idea of a 2 phase supply in Australia is totally alien.  I know it appears in the USA where there is a split supply to generate 2 x 115v and 230v across the actives - but not here.

Therefore a principal power switch must always have enough poles for all the mains wires (phases + neutral).

While I completely agree with the reasoning behind this, the fact remains that manufacturers are going to get away with whatever they can.

[firehopper]

Maybe we in Australia have benefited from lessons learned from the rest of the world, but our domestic supply consists of three 230v phases and a neutral.  Each residence will have 2, 3 or 4 wires coming in from the street - being a neutral and either 1, 2 or 3 phases.  In the earlier days, each property was presented with 3 phase, where circuits around the house were spread across the 3 phases to help balance the phase currents - but these days, the power demands can frequently be satisfied by a single phase to each house and phase current balancing is performed by spreading houses across the phases.

Two wire (excluding earth) devices in Australia are supplied by one active phase and a neutral (which is tied to ground somewhere along the way).  The idea of a 2 phase supply in Australia is totally alien.  I know it appears in the USA where there is a split supply to generate 2 x 115v and 230v across the actives - but not here.

This is my house, I live in the usa and I have 2 110 volt lines, and a few items that run off the 220 ( water pump and clothes dryer, the water heater used to, but ended up with a 110 water heater so had to rewire that)

[nctnico]

The fact remains, though, that there IS a difference between the Active and Neutral, especially when safety is being considered.  Keeping them consistently on the same pin of any mains outlet has NO downside, whereas allowing them to swap indiscriminately does (however large or small you feel that may be).

The problem is in the word consistently. If you are concerned with your safety you don't want to put your life in the hands of the people connecting the wires. Also in a fault condition the neutral wire may become live. So either way the only real safe way to disconnect/switch off mains is to interrupt all phases and neutral.

[David_AVD]

Sure it was not compliant but hardly what I would consider a serious safety issue in the real world.

I would not have bothered destroying it, but you paid for it so you can do what feels right of course.