RIP the "dream" plane

[rsjsouza]

Ukraine is so buried in debt since 2014 and under IMF dictator... *ahem* "conditionality" that, if this depends on them, they will be looking for other places to spend the money and not on the Antonov.

[Neepa]

The AN-225 and other heavy lift planes (most of the time military transports) like it have the advantage in hauling compact heavy loads.
Loads that a Dreamlifter or Beluga would crumble under cause they are concentrated in such a small area that their deck structures would buckle under them.
That was the advantage of the AN-225.

Now some current construction projects of chemical plants or in the oil industry are going to scratch their head how they are going to transport a 90-120 ton reactor or boiler across the world in their timetables.

[coppercone2]

The AN-225 and other heavy lift planes (most of the time military transports) like it have the advantage in hauling compact heavy loads.
Loads that a Dreamlifter or Beluga would crumble under cause they are concentrated in such a small area that their deck structures would buckle under them.
That was the advantage of the AN-225.

Now some current construction projects of chemical plants or in the oil industry are going to scratch their head how they are going to transport a 90-120 ton reactor or boiler across the world in their timetables.

might be worth it if people make some kind of partnership to bring the plane back, if it is spread across a few different sectors then companies might overall able to reduce their costs and maintain status quo on shipping in the future rather then making big adaptations. It seems to be in the interest of heavy industry (industry that uses heavy capital equipment) to join together and get this thing working and available.

This thing must save a fortune on making designs viable without figuring out a whole bunch of piecemeal crap and figuring out how to ship weird objects through weird places. These large structures have their own benefits (instead of legos).. its like having mechanical ASICs that are gonna be solid without assembly, jointing, stability, drift, alignment, etc problems.

[Nusa]

The AN-225 and other heavy lift planes (most of the time military transports) like it have the advantage in hauling compact heavy loads.
Loads that a Dreamlifter or Beluga would crumble under cause they are concentrated in such a small area that their deck structures would buckle under them.
That was the advantage of the AN-225.

Now some current construction projects of chemical plants or in the oil industry are going to scratch their head how they are going to transport a 90-120 ton reactor or boiler across the world in their timetables.

Your example needs a bigger number to require the AN-225. The AN-124 can haul about 150 tons if it'll fit in the plane.

[station240]

Video taken by Dmytro Antonov - Chief Pilot of Antonov Airlines
Tour of Hostomel (aka Antonov) Airport

Turn on subtitles to get english.

[Vovk_Z]

The AN-225 and other heavy lift planes (most of the time military transports) like it have the advantage in hauling compact heavy loads.
Loads that a Dreamlifter or Beluga would crumble under cause they are concentrated in such a small area that their deck structures would buckle under them.
That was the advantage of the AN-225.

Now some current construction projects of chemical plants or in the oil industry are going to scratch their head how they are going to transport a 90-120 ton reactor or boiler across the world in their timetables.

Your example needs a bigger number to require the AN-225. The AN-124 can haul about 150 tons if it'll fit in the plane.

It can fly only 3200 km with 150 tons, but 5200  with 120 tons, etc. So if a large range is required then a load is strictly restricted.

[tom66]

Looking at the damage to other planes there I can't imagine many of them flying again.  The bullet holes ripping through fuselage, hydraulics, avionics, etc.  will be extremely expensive to repair, especially given the aircraft are mostly outside of series production.  The An-225 is more of an exception, hearing the chief pilot tear up over that was hard.  I don't think much more than the tail section and some engines are usable, and even then those will need complete overhauls to ensure they are airworthy.  That aircraft is gone, sadly, but maybe the parts can be used.

A Boeing 777-200ER was fire damaged due to an uncontained engine failure a few years ago.  That one was repaired, but the repair process took a few months and the cost was close to writing the aircraft off, though it wasn't quite there:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_2276

Just that small fire damage on the aircraft in the hangar may be enough to write that off.

Most insurance doesn't cover war, I expect aviation insurance is the same.  So repairs/replacement will only happen at the cost of the Russian state, or if Antonov funds them privately. 

[coppercone2]

I hope they can find someone to fix it, its kind of a national treasure, the front looks totally FUBAR though (that looks like ALOT of panel beating, if you can even do that to a plane chassis), based on the video.

Alot of suffering went into being able to make that plane (at cost of things like toilet paper, chip miniaturization, etc). Why are the bullet holes such a big deal? I thought it was all pipes and cable harnesses in there, I thought it could be mostly patched up.

Did it get shot by a heavy artillery or something?

[nctnico]

I hope they can find someone to fix it, its kind of a national treasure, the front looks totally FUBAR though (that looks like ALOT of panel beating, if you can even do that to a plane chassis), based on the video.

Alot of suffering went into being able to make that plane (at cost of things like toilet paper, chip miniaturization, etc). Why are the bullet holes such a big deal? I thought it was all pipes and cable harnesses in there, I thought it could be mostly patched up.

AFAIK it doesn't work that way. To reduce weight, every part of the fuselage (including the plating) is part of the main structure of an airplane. A bullet hole can easely lead to a larger tear. So at least every piece of plating with a bullet hole in it needs to be replaced.

[james_s]

AFAIK it doesn't work that way. To reduce weight, every part of the fuselage (including the plating) is part of the main structure of an airplane. A bullet hole can easely lead to a larger tear. So at least every piece of plating with a bullet hole in it needs to be replaced.

It's called a stressed skin. Damaged panels can be patched with a plate, but if you have several holes it may be easier to replace.

[cdev]

Is that the biggest plane in the world? How stupid those Russians are.. Most Americans think Antonov means Russian, even though its Ukrainian-developed. SO many of the USSR's best people were Ukrainian.

[cdev]

NASA appreciates what they have done.

If you ask them for help, they will be happy to help you. As best as they can. They have huge wind tunnels, even supersonic wind tunnels and could help remake those planes better than before.

They should try to turn this disaster into a victory.. It can be done.

Keep that in mind. Show them that video..

We are all in this Earth together.

Science transcends all else.. It transcends Putin's idiocracy..

[cdev]

Whomever did that was in an totally evil, twisted frame of mind, they only wanted to destroy the accomplishment.

Fools they are..

I hope they can find someone to fix it, its kind of a national treasure, the front looks totally FUBAR though (that looks like ALOT of panel beating, if you can even do that to a plane chassis), based on the video.

Alot of suffering went into being able to make that plane (at cost of things like toilet paper, chip miniaturization, etc). Why are the bullet holes such a big deal? I thought it was all pipes and cable harnesses in there, I thought it could be mostly patched up.

AFAIK it doesn't work that way. To reduce weight, every part of the fuselage (including the plating) is part of the main structure of an airplane. A bullet hole can easely lead to a larger tear. So at least every piece of plating with a bullet hole in it needs to be replaced.

[cdev]

What need to happen is the geometry of the damaged planes has to be captured as soon as possible (laser scanning, high res photogrammetry.. ) recorded in as much detail as possible using fiducial targets of known size, that would be of assistance in getting the measurements right.

Using laser scanning and photogrammetry. It may be possible to recreate the plans for these planes using math.

Thats how the Saturn 5 (Rocketdyne F1) engines were re-created. The designers are free, they need to get out and into safety.

This is what they rebuilt,   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocketdyne_F-1

Safe and sound.. They need to get themselves into safety.. They should fly out, to one of the Baltic countries.

The Russians made a huge mistake..

 The designers have a huge job ahead of them, but its hardly impossible.

It could be an inspiration to all of us, this story.

Looking at the damage to other planes there I can't imagine many of them flying again.  The bullet holes ripping through fuselage, hydraulics, avionics, etc.  will be extremely expensive to repair, especially given the aircraft are mostly outside of series production.  The An-225 is more of an exception, hearing the chief pilot tear up over that was hard.  I don't think much more than the tail section and some engines are usable, and even then those will need complete overhauls to ensure they are airworthy.  That aircraft is gone, sadly, but maybe the parts can be used.

A Boeing 777-200ER was fire damaged due to an uncontained engine failure a few years ago.  That one was repaired, but the repair process took a few months and the cost was close to writing the aircraft off, though it wasn't quite there:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_2276

Just that small fire damage on the aircraft in the hangar may be enough to write that off.

Most insurance doesn't cover war, I expect aviation insurance is the same.  So repairs/replacement will only happen at the cost of the Russian state, or if Antonov funds them privately.

They dont have to fly again, they can be rebuilt from the geometry if its important.. They will need the CAD files to do anything modern anyway. They need to laser scan and take sharp protography lots of images to recreate the aircraft.. Hellthis isthe 21st century. These men are all professionals and the best at what they do in the world.. Teamwork.. is the key. To making things fly..

Your attitude determines your altitude.. Nothing else.. Yes, that was a US propaganda slogan.

Colmap can be super useful.. And easy to use..Colmap.
https://colmap.github.io/

[coppercone2]

I was imagining there might be a pattern related to a taper in the plane that could be noticed after analysis is indeed there are many custom/specifically placed parts after reading the above post.

[Vovk_Z]

Most Americans think Antonov means Russian, even though its Ukrainian-developed. SO many of the USSR's best people were Ukrainian.

'Antonov' itself is a russian surname, and Oleg Antonov itself was russian (he was born near Moskow), but he made his greatest achevments in Ukraine, Kiev, with ukrainians.

[langwadt]

Most Americans think Antonov means Russian, even though its Ukrainian-developed. SO many of the USSR's best people were Ukrainian.

'Antonov' itself is a russian surname, and Oleg Antonov itself was russian (he was burn near Moskow), but he made his greatest achevments in Ukrain, Kiev, with ukrainians.

Him and the design bureau  in Kiev but wasn't the parts for the planes build all over the then USSR?

sorta like how Airbus gets parts from all over Europe

[Vovk_Z]

It was some cooperation in Soviet Union of cause.
I have to add that the chief designer of An-225 and An-124 was Petro Balabuev, he is Ukrainian.
Wiki
Oleg Antonow was too old and I guess retired at that time (he worked as university lecturer).

[tom66]

The chief pilot seems to be Dymtro Antonov, is this just a coincidence or is he descended from the family?  I couldn't find any reference there, but it might explain even more so why he' so attached to these aircraft - they are family to him.

[coppercone2]

I think given how the soviet union treated public works, it was SUPPOSED to be part of your family. All types of sacrifices and reallocations were made so that kinda stuff can get built, I don't think it could happen in a democracy as easily.

[Nusa]

To be fair, the American view of how the Soviet Union worked is generally less than accurate, except for those with first-hand experience and/or studied expertise. Heck, a large percentage of Americans don't even understand how America works, especially when many of those who do see it in their best interest to keep it that way.

[SiliconWizard]

To be fair, the American view of how the Soviet Union worked is generally less than accurate, except for those with first-hand experience and/or studied expertise. Heck, a large percentage of Americans don't even understand how America works, especially when many of those who do see it in their best interest to keep it that way.

Indeed.

[cdev]

Yes, you are quite right.


There is a good essay on this that is worth reading. It originally came from Canada and its an eye opener on many things. Everybody who reads English may benefit from it.  Capitalism has now limited the scope of services, making them private-for profit OR "supplied in the exercise of governmental authority" and hence, public.

I think given how the soviet union treated public works, it was SUPPOSED to be part of your family. All types of sacrifices and reallocations were made so that kinda stuff can get built, I don't think it could happen in a democracy as easily.

[cdev]

This is interesting as to whether an airplane that sustains "severe thermal damage" can be repaired safely.

It looks very difficult, frankly. Because its aluminum its perhaps better to build it over again from 3d captured plans made to replicate the originals - built from scratch.

For example, see what happened to

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_2276  due to catastrophic failure and fire in one engine. Kudos to the pilot for immediately aborting the takeoff and issuing the call to evacuate the plane.  That was exemplary Quick thinking!

Aluminum that melts might not ever be the same structurally and might need replacement to be safe.

[james_s]

If you want to see crazy repairs, look at some of the restorations of vintage warbirds, sometimes they'll pull a wreck out of a swamp and use it as a basis for a restoration. I don't think 3D scanning is viable for reproducing an aircraft, at least not without completely disassembling it.There are many, many complex stamped and cast metal parts.