Author Topic: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore  (Read 33864 times)

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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore
« Reply #50 on: August 20, 2015, 09:04:51 pm »
:-DD A funny notion: early digital storage media included the Williams tube, a CRT with a storage type phosphor, performing electrical readout via secondary emission.  Early units handled on the order of kilobits; I believe the ultimate limit was around a megabit (sounds about right; my 1.92Mpx Trinitron CRT is a bit too fuzzy to be able to store an image as clean binary dots, so a sharper beam and lower density would be in order).  A handy feature of this medium was, because the phosphor is both the storage medium and photoemissive, the computer's live operating memory was directly readable in person, in use!  Recording a photograph or movie of this memory would be exactly akin to transferring MPEG onto film (by which I mean, retaining the digital encoding; which because it's a lossy method, is arguably an integral part of the final movie product itself, and so should also be preserved).

On a related note, I wonder about the failure mechanisms between film and tape.  Consider:
Film is an emulsion of pigment particles, usually silver metal (B&W) or organic dyes (color), coated onto or embedded in a plastic carrier.  Magnetic tape is a coating of pigment particles, usually a hard magnetic compound based on iron, bonded to a plastic carrier.

Magnetism itself can be quite enduring (paleomagnetism), and there need be no reason why organic dyes should last any better.

I'm sure it mainly comes down to a production matter, as usual; it's difficult and expensive to produce very pure, very robust media, so who would ever buy the stuff?  The low demand compounds itself by causing high prices.

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Offline wagon

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Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore
« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2015, 11:05:05 am »
We have made an agreement with The Internet Archive to donate our entire library to their collection.

well, until some troll tells the IA that the manuals are copyright and It can't publish them, at which point they'll be well locked away out of reach as their own property. Kickstarter perhaps ?
I'm pretty sure the copyright act allows copying of full publications if a copy is not available from the publisher in a reasonable time.
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Offline eas

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Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore
« Reply #52 on: August 28, 2015, 08:10:16 pm »
We are fools and history tends to repeat itself...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria
...
Digital media will not last forever. And the world's knowledge will not necessarily be backed up. Certainly won't last as long as the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Rosetta Stone.

Fallacious reasoning. You are pointing to two things that were preserved as much by accident as design. Yes, the rosetta stone was probably intended to be a durable artifact, but its significance today is that 1) it escaped being lost or destroyed (perhaps by someone who wanted to re-use the stone for another message), 2) it managed to be found 3) it said the same thing in three different scripts/languages, and provided a bridge to understanding Egyptian hieroglyphics.

Similarly, there was surely some intent of durability in the creation of the dead sea scrolls, but the fact that we know about them today depends on may external factors. Continued dry climate, long term success of abrahmic religions, escaping looting or reuse of the materials, etc.

Ultimately, the medium matters, but so too does the sheer number of copies. Digital storage makes the latter practical for a huge amount of information. I'll tell you, though, the people who actually feel responsibility for preserving the worlds knowledge includes a significant number of people who aren't content to trust a single strategy for preservation. Even for digital storage, there are people who work to ensure long term robustness through multiple strategies.

Quote
However I do have every SERVICE MANUAL to every model of AWA Fisk radio ever made. Not only the schematic, but alignment, assembly procedures and parts lists. I suspect it is the only complete collection in the world. In perfect condition and not available digitally. These are locked up off site with a secure documents company for safe keeping.

Remember the great fire of Alexandria...

Great that you have your own project. Obviously though, physical copies at a facility dedicated to preservation of physical copies is pretty much exactly what the Library of Alexandria was.  Moreover, by forgoing digital versions, you are both missing an opportunity to ensure the information is available and useful in the future, and sacrificing its present day utility, which, I'll suggest, decreases the future likelihood that anyone will care that the information has been preserved.

Generally, I'd say that any "portfolio" that includes significant investments in planning for the "end of the world," should have much larger investments in avoiding the "end of the world." Ironically, people who prepare for the "end of the world" by coming together with other people who are preparing for the "end of the world," are actually cultivating resilience that makes the end of the world less likely/more distant, while those who hole-up and isolate themselves are helping make the "end of the world" more likely, but even then, they are making a suckers bet.

We have made an agreement with The Internet Archive to donate our entire library to their collection.

well, until some troll tells the IA that the manuals are copyright and It can't publish them, at which point they'll be well locked away out of reach as their own property. Kickstarter perhaps ?
I'm pretty sure the copyright act allows copying of full publications if a copy is not available from the publisher in a reasonable time.

In the US, at least, there are insufficient provisions for abandoned or orphan works. Moreover, the terms of copyright are so absurdly long due to the lobbying efforts of Disney that I suspect that most test equipment manuals are, unequivocally, still covered by copyright.

People are free to try to keep stuff out of the hands of the internet archive because of ill-informed paranoia (or well informed reasoning), but I'll point out that the Internet Archive is actually one of the places that has enough information to make well-informed decisions about this stuff. Also supporting them is an example of how coming together builds resilience. It increases their base of support, and their leverage in negotiating with copyright holders. They've clearly already managed to make a significant amount of information publicly available, including a lot of technical docs

As I see it, the thing about digital preservation is that it is cheap enough that its practical to preserve things that would be very difficult to make a case for physically preserving. The manuals-plus collection is a perfect example of that. The owners could no longer make an economic justification for preserving it. Perhaps, given enough time and effort, someone could have been found who would be willing to preserve it as physical media, but the cost commitment over decades would be high enough that it would have to be weighed against other priorities, and making that decision would have involved its own non-trivial costs.

On the other hand, the case for digital preservation is such that one person with a foot in the world of digital archives was able to put together and execute a plan in a short amount of time that has delivered the short term physical preservation of most of the archive, and the likelihood that most of it will be archived digitally and made widely available, while also leaving the possibility open that some of it could also be preserved as physical media. There is a large up-front cost to digitizing the collection, but: 1) That cost has immediate benefits in making the collection more accessible/useful 2) The long term cost is tiny compared to the cost of physical storage. 3) The trend is for digital storage and distribution to get even cheaper, while physical storage and distribution will grow.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2015, 08:15:28 pm by eas »
 

Online edavid

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Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore
« Reply #53 on: August 28, 2015, 08:30:17 pm »
In the US, at least, there are insufficient provisions for abandoned or orphan works. Moreover, the terms of copyright are so absurdly long due to the lobbying efforts of Disney that I suspect that most test equipment manuals are, unequivocally, still covered by copyright.

In the case of test equipment manuals. the existing public archives have mostly been left alone by copyright holders.  I guess it's possible that the involvement of the high-visibility Internet Archive would change that.

I think scanning a zillion manuals before the storage money runs out is a much bigger challenge than copyright though.  I don't know if IA scanning people have really tangled with foldouts before.
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore
« Reply #54 on: September 09, 2015, 08:48:15 pm »


In the case of test equipment manuals. the existing public archives have mostly been left alone by copyright holders.  I guess it's possible that the involvement of the high-visibility Internet Archive would change that.


   The holder of the copyright to the various Heathkit manuals certainly hasn't left the public archives alone! Many of the B&K manuals also seem to be unobtainium.

   I've also noticed that a lot of old books that used to be on Google Books are no longer available.  Just yesterday I tried to find a copy of 'A Standard History of Ross County, Ohio' written in 1917 IIRC and it's no longer posted. Another book that recall in particular was written in 1794 but somebody has stopped Google from making it available and the URL that I BookMarked no longer valid.


"I think scanning a zillion manuals before the storage money runs out is a much bigger challenge than copyright though.  I don't know if IA scanning people have really tangled with foldouts before."

    Yes, trying to find a GOOD scanned of fold out schematics has been a big problem. Yes, they made digital copies the manual but often the quality left a lot to be desired!
 

Online edavid

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Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore
« Reply #55 on: September 09, 2015, 10:18:21 pm »
The holder of the copyright to the various Heathkit manuals certainly hasn't left the public archives alone!
Most people think that copyright has lapsed on Heathkit manuals.  There are plenty of sites that host them.

Quote
Many of the B&K manuals also seem to be unobtainium.
Has B+K ever threatened an archive site?

 

Offline amyk

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Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore
« Reply #56 on: September 10, 2015, 02:00:59 am »
The Internet Archive has scanned plenty of other, more popular, and newer, copyrighted material. I think they've fought many other copyright trolls before.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore
« Reply #57 on: September 10, 2015, 03:43:48 am »
We are fools and history tends to repeat itself...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria

Digital media will not last forever. And the world's knowledge will not necessarily be backed up. Certainly won't last as long as the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Rosetta Stone.

Digital media can be copied and backed up and converted between formats and storage types and etc etc etc indefinitely. The data is finally separate from the medium, as it should be. It has way more chance at longevity than paper.

Anyone who thinks digital media can't last thinks "digital media" is a filing cabinet full of CD-Rs.
And how about using a collective storage medium? Think about peer-to-peer networks. Music you won't find in any (online) shop can still be obtained from peer-to-peer networks.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online edpalmer42

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Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore
« Reply #58 on: September 17, 2015, 03:53:48 am »
An audio interview with Jason Scott about the rescue of manuals.

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/spark/why-i-spent-my-summer-rescuing-thousands-of-vintage-manuals-1.3222642

Ed
 

Online TimFox

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Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore
« Reply #59 on: September 17, 2015, 11:22:58 pm »
The reason to digitize plain-text media is to make working copies and make the copies available widely.
That is not the same as archiving.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore
« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2017, 10:56:54 pm »
Sorry for the necroposting, but I picked up today two excellent quality manuals from another company (Tucker Electronics, also available at eBay as teoutlet) and the owner Jim said they will not be around for long anymore due to personal reasons. It is sad to see his huge collection go to the dustbin, so hopefully someone knows someone that could salvage them...
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Online edavid

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Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore
« Reply #61 on: December 08, 2017, 11:07:43 pm »
Sorry for the necroposting, but I picked up today two excellent quality manuals from another company (Tucker Electronics, also available at eBay as teoutlet) and the owner Jim said they will not be around for long anymore due to personal reasons. It is sad to see his huge collection go to the dustbin, so hopefully someone knows someone that could salvage them...

The last time I talked to him, he was holding out for $10/manual, so salvage wasn't really an option.  Did he change his mind about that?
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore
« Reply #62 on: December 08, 2017, 11:28:58 pm »
The best way to store data, including files like PDFs (as blobs) to assure longevity, is a ACID compliant SQL database with replication.


This is not difficult to set up, as DBs like PostgreSQL include replication and are free. You can add additional machines that are in different parts of the world. The price of bandwidth also is going down and is approaching zero.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore
« Reply #63 on: December 09, 2017, 12:03:48 am »
Last time I talked to him, he was holding out for $10/manual, so salvage wasn't really an option.  Did he change his mind about that?
As I don't have the means to pursue this myself, I didn't discuss this with him.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline amyk

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Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore
« Reply #64 on: December 09, 2017, 01:48:11 am »
Sorry for the necroposting, but I picked up today two excellent quality manuals from another company (Tucker Electronics, also available at eBay as teoutlet) and the owner Jim said they will not be around for long anymore due to personal reasons. It is sad to see his huge collection go to the dustbin, so hopefully someone knows someone that could salvage them...
Ask Jason Scott, the same guy who rescued the manuals discussed previously in this thread.
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore
« Reply #65 on: December 09, 2017, 06:33:48 am »
Oh no, not teoutlet too.
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Offline Tomorokoshi

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Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore
« Reply #66 on: December 10, 2017, 06:59:48 am »
Oh no, not teoutlet too.

I just got another manual from teoutlet.
 

Online edavid

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Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore
« Reply #67 on: December 10, 2017, 04:14:21 pm »
Oh no, not teoutlet too.

I just got another manual from teoutlet.

Back in May, he said he was going to close in June  :-//
 

Offline Cubdriver

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Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore
« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2017, 08:06:34 am »
He's been selling manuals on evilBay, but I haven't been able to get to the direct website recently, so I'm thinking things may be wrapping up there.   :(

That stinks, as he was a good source for paper manuals, and I've gotten quite a few from him.

-Pat
If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...
 

Offline macboy

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Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore
« Reply #69 on: December 12, 2017, 04:47:13 pm »
I bought one very hard to find manual from teoutlet, basically perfect condition paper copy with big fold-out schematics. The downloadable one from the manufacturer had the schematics redacted. I was very pleased with the purchase, and I'd do it again if needed, but most often there is something usable out there for download. I guess that's why these manual dealers are not viable today. Sad.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Rescue mission - 25,000 manuals, Baltimore
« Reply #70 on: December 13, 2017, 01:17:59 am »
yes, I know but how many of those that now need to be rescued will suddenly become only available by ebay purchase !

No matter what you do, some freeloader will try to find a way to profit from it. I try not to worry about it, I'll provide stuff like that for free any time I can, if someone else tries to sell it that doesn't take anything away from me nor does it negate the help I've done for others by providing it.
 
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