Renesas to buy Altium

[nctnico]

I just don't like this seemingly neverending concentration of power. I think there should be economic rules to force a company to split up into smaller ones if it reaches a certain valuation. It would be a simple and effective way of fighting this concentration. Of course that may not be everyone's opinion, and some may argue that concentrating companies makes the whole more efficient (if that was the only thing to consider here), which I actually highly doubt anyway.

What I see is that companies like Renesas are more like a lava-lamp. Blobs get gobbled up and new blobs emerge.

[MT]

Renesas announced today that they're acquiring Altium for $5.9B.

https://www.reuters.com/technology/japanese-chipmaker-renesas-buy-australian-software-firm-altium-59-bln-2024-02-14/

A billion to much!

[Jamieson]

hey at least they didn't get bought out and assimilated into the mentor graphics borg

[Jamieson]

Second thought: Japanese companies operate a bit differently, they buy anything slightly related to their business.

I wonder is this does anything for the big US government customers? Japan is a US ally, so I'm guessing no impact.
When Altium packed up and moved to China all the US government bodies said they would stop using the package, oops.

Which US gov bodies use Altium?
Purchasing of "strategic" goods is subject to many anti- anti- anti- acts/laws in US, especially when the gov body is purchasing something..

US gov or gov contractors (national labs, etc.) are facing rapidly increasing pushback to purchasing *anything* at the moment. There is always some term or condition that cannot be agreed upon.

[jc101]

Well, if Renesas use Altium internally it's certainly one way to manage the annual subscription price hike and paywalling of features to only higher subscription levels.  Even those with permanent licences have features paywalled by an active subscription these days.

With recent licence changes, they may well be buying just as many users look elsewhere...

[nctnico]

I'm not sure how Altium can compete with Kicad within a few years. Looking forward: Kicad version 8 or 9 can do everything a small business needs for PCB design & the logistics side of assembling boards.

[jc101]

From the press release...

“Development processes continue to evolve and accelerate. With our Purpose “To Make Our Lives Easier” in mind, our vision is to make electronics design accessible to the broader market to allow more innovation through a cloud-based platform,” said Hidetoshi Shibata, CEO of Renesas. “Addition of Altium will enable us to deliver an integrated and open development platform, making it easier for businesses of all sizes and industries to build and scale their systems. We look forward to working with Altium’s talented team as we continue to invest and drive our combined platform to the next level of value for our customers."

Looks very cloudy going forwards 

[tom66]

I'm not sure how Altium can compete with Kicad within a few years. Looking forward: Kicad version 8 or 9 can do everything a small business needs for PCB design & the logistics side of assembling boards.

Agreed.  And I use Altium professionally at the day-job.  There are some things like complex microvia stackups or flexis (especially flexi rigids) where Altium still wins.  Also, the integration with the mechanical CAD side is a little better.  But generally:  KiCAD is *very, very* good.   Also, it is far more stable.  Altium tends to crash, even in the latest versions, and has a lot of performance issues even on good hardware.  For instance, it takes a good 30 seconds here to open up a PCB from the repository, but KiCAD can have one open in just over a second. 

It is not hard to see how it could be a serious thorn in the side of their salespeople soon enough.

[tszaboo]

I'm not sure how Altium can compete with Kicad within a few years. Looking forward: Kicad version 8 or 9 can do everything a small business needs for PCB design & the logistics side of assembling boards.

Agreed.  And I use Altium professionally at the day-job.  There are some things like complex microvia stackups or flexis (especially flexi rigids) where Altium still wins.  Also, the integration with the mechanical CAD side is a little better.  But generally:  KiCAD is *very, very* good.   Also, it is far more stable.  Altium tends to crash, even in the latest versions, and has a lot of performance issues even on good hardware.  For instance, it takes a good 30 seconds here to open up a PCB from the repository, but KiCAD can have one open in just over a second. 

It is not hard to see how it could be a serious thorn in the side of their salespeople soon enough.

How about the online component library, and access to octopart stuff. Integration with AutoCAD. Automated release. Documentation support like the draftsman.
The software is not about pushing lines so they don't cross, software in the 80s could do that, and that's not actually where we spend most of our time.

[tom66]

How about the online component library, and access to octopart stuff. Integration with AutoCAD. Automated release. Documentation support like the draftsman.
The software is not about pushing lines so they don't cross, software in the 80s could do that, and that's not actually where we spend most of our time.

We don't use the online components library.  How can you be sure of its provenance when you are making expensive one offs on short timescales? We sometimes spend £15k on short-turn board runs to get projects out to customers in time.   So we draw all of our own footprints.  The only external CAD we use are 3D STEP models from component manufacturers.

We do like the CAD integration, though use it with Solidworks.  It's definitely very good, that's why I highlighted it as an area KiCAD currently lacks in.  Especially when it comes to building flexis,  you can flex the PCB in Altium and define bend points and bend radiuses, and integrate these into the product.

Don't think we've used the other two features intensively.  All of our production panelisation is done by a 3rd party company - we send them one-off gerbers and they send us panel CAD back for approval.

Basically I broadly agree with nctnico, it's not quite there yet, but in another 2..3..5 years?  KiCAD will be able to do almost everything Altium can does and instead of costing £10k per seat it'll cost nothing.  It's going to take a lot of missing functionality to convince companies that the £10k is worth spending IMO.  The performance issues with Altium are a major headache.  We find it is slow even on a 5800H laptops with dedicated GPUs.  Meanwhile KiCAD runs lightning fast. 

[nctnico]

And Altium is also lagging behind with high speed board verification. One of my customers had a complex board design with SoC, high speed memory etc designed using Altium but I verified the high speed stuff (impedances, crosstalk) by importing the design into Allegro. Also the initial board stackup and differential pairs where setup using Allegro's field solver as Altium's results (which likely use formulas) for the differential pairs where way off.

The speed of Altium is lauhgable indeed. Allegro runs way faster on a 10 year old, Intel i3 laptop compared to Altium on a modern PC.

[EEVblog]

I was this close to buying shares at 10 cents 

I should have mined 1000 Bitcoins... I should not have sold them when they where worth €10 each... I should not have sold them when they where worth €100 each... I should not have sold them when they where worth €1000 each... I should not have sold them when they where worth €10000 each... The list goes on... 

Yep, I probably would have bailed once it was a 10-20 bagger.

[DrGeoff]

I was this close to buying shares at 10 cents 

I should have mined 1000 Bitcoins... I should not have sold them when they where worth €10 each... I should not have sold them when they where worth €100 each... I should not have sold them when they where worth €1000 each... I should not have sold them when they where worth €10000 each... The list goes on... 

Yep, I probably would have bailed once it was a 10-20 bagger.

Lol. I got them at 37 cents. Still have a big bundle stewing away...

[EEVblog]

Lol. I got them at 37 cents. Still have a big bundle stewing away...

185 bagger 

I was going to put my entire payout of $20k into Altium at around I think it was 10 cents. If I held 15 years until now they would be worth $13.7M  :'(

[tooki]

Also the initial board stackup and differential pairs where setup using Allegro's field solver as Altium's results (which likely use formulas) for the differential pairs where way off.

Altium uses a field solver.

And I don’t see how KiCad will displace Altium until it fills in the gaps on very basic missing features, like the ability to edit more than a single object at a time. (The current workaround of batch-editing files in a text editor is laughable.) KiCad is impressive in many ways, and you can absolutely produce top-quality output with it, but Altium supports you far more in doing so.

[SiliconWizard]

Also the initial board stackup and differential pairs where setup using Allegro's field solver as Altium's results (which likely use formulas) for the differential pairs where way off.

Altium uses a field solver.

And I don’t see how KiCad will displace Altium until it fills in the gaps on very basic missing features, like the ability to edit more than a single object at a time. (The current workaround of batch-editing files in a text editor is laughable.) KiCad is impressive in many ways, and you can absolutely produce top-quality output with it, but Altium supports you far more in doing so.

Agreed. This would be very far-fetched.

And, as for how the real world works, beyond purely technical abilities, just look at how many people still use Eagle, even when KiCad would definitely be a good fit there, and even if Eagle can be considered essentially dead and what's left of it is subscription-crap only. So, yeah. Displacing AD? Uh-huh. In what year?

[ataradov]

I review a lot of random schematics as part of my job, and in the past couple years I've seen KiCad schematics a lot, may be event the most, although I have not counted. There are definitely biases in what is being submitted for review, but the trend is there and KiCad usage in the industry goes up. It will not replace Altium, but it replaces Eagle pretty well.

[hans]

Also the initial board stackup and differential pairs where setup using Allegro's field solver as Altium's results (which likely use formulas) for the differential pairs where way off.

Altium uses a field solver.

And I don’t see how KiCad will displace Altium until it fills in the gaps on very basic missing features, like the ability to edit more than a single object at a time. (The current workaround of batch-editing files in a text editor is laughable.) KiCad is impressive in many ways, and you can absolutely produce top-quality output with it, but Altium supports you far more in doing so.

100% agreed.

I've used Kicad with satisfaction on several occassions, but it were handpicked designs which wouldn't go beyond QFP-100 or so, on small PCBs. The productivity tools just aren't there yet. The GUI's still feel clunky (ever noticed how non-intuitive the footprint picker for a complete SCH looks?), and simply lacking for grouping, selecting, filtering and mass editting tools. "Scripting" is not the solution for this. I shouldn't need to write a script to change the value/footprint of 5 caps "in bulk" in my design.

Now I must admit that KiCad can probably be fixed relatively easy for that, its not doing a whole things wrong per-se, rather it's not doing them yet. In contrast, Altium has grown out to be a beast with half a dozen ways to accomplish the same thing.. or 3 different ways to open the same GUI panels. I also don't like their newer UI design where all the panels fold in the sides and are arranged vertically. Some of the old panels had a great overview and information density.
It's all horrondously complex, and speaking of poor UI design, Altium can also get some rewards!

But.. its all nothing compared to Eagle or whatever it is now called. I started using it in 2010 as an upgrade to Multisim we used in school.. but man, looking back, what a piece of trash that was.

[EEVblog]

I review a lot of random schematics as part of my job, and in the past couple years I've seen KiCad schematics a lot, may be event the most, although I have not counted. There are definitely biases in what is being submitted for review, but the trend is there and KiCad usage in the industry goes up. It will not replace Altium, but it replaces Eagle pretty well.

Eagle seems dead. When was the last time you heard anyone talk about eagle in the hobby/maker community?

[rsjsouza]

The same will happen with Altium if Renesas pulls an Autodesk and kills perpetual in favour of online/subscription.

Just like others, I am still trying to understand the reason for the acquisition. Either compete head-to-head with another EDA (Zuken is also Japanese and might have upset Renesas in some unknown fashion) or kill the product altogether to favour Zuken.

[tom66]

I review a lot of random schematics as part of my job, and in the past couple years I've seen KiCad schematics a lot, may be event the most, although I have not counted. There are definitely biases in what is being submitted for review, but the trend is there and KiCad usage in the industry goes up. It will not replace Altium, but it replaces Eagle pretty well.

Eagle seems dead. When was the last time you heard anyone talk about eagle in the hobby/maker community?

I believe SparkFun still predominantly use Eagle.  I feel sorry for their CAD engineers. 

Aside from those guys, yeah... I don't get Eagle at all.  Still. Could be worse.  Could be Mentor PADS... I had to use that for the last 3 years.  I don't think you could deliberately make software that bad if you tried.

[tooki]

Adafruit’s designs are also all Eagle, last time I checked.

[nctnico]

I review a lot of random schematics as part of my job, and in the past couple years I've seen KiCad schematics a lot, may be event the most, although I have not counted. There are definitely biases in what is being submitted for review, but the trend is there and KiCad usage in the industry goes up. It will not replace Altium, but it replaces Eagle pretty well.

Eagle seems dead. When was the last time you heard anyone talk about eagle in the hobby/maker community?

Last week I was in a meeting with somebody who is using Eagle as part of the Autodesk package.

[NF6X]

Still. Could be worse.  Could be Mentor PADS... I had to use that for the last 3 years.  I don't think you could deliberately make software that bad if you tried.

I used PADS for around 14 years, in the pre-Mentor through Mentor era. Around 8 years ago, I switched to using KiCad both at business and work. Late last year, I had to use PADS again briefly to make some modifications to another engineer's design. The only changes I could see were 1) simple 3D viewing was added, and 2) they put masking tape over "Mentor" and wrote "Siemens" on it. It felt so very clunky compared to KiCad, which has grown tremendously since I started using it in the version 4.x era.

I've only had a tiny bit of exposure to Altium. I'd like to see KiCad add some features that Altium has, particularly rigid/flex and multi-board support. I'm satisfied with KiCad's mechanical CAD support, but maybe I would change my mind about that if I tried Altium+Solidworks integration? I haven't had a good opportunity to learn SolidWorks because the MEs at work are usually fighting over the SolidWorks licenses.

The context where I briefly touched Altium is in a defense contractor where we are absolutely forbidden to use any cloud features; we even had to set up a local license server to satisfy the company policy. That limited the Altium features I could use somewhat. It's funny that I was on board with standardizing the company on Altium and I was the guy who managed the purchase and roll-out mid last year... but then I never really learned to use it because 1) constant schedule pressure and I know KiCad so well plus 2) we have only 2 seats of Altium and a lot more than 2 EEs. Well, it made some of the other EEs happy to be able to use Altium, at least.

I'm most comfortable with a KiCad + Fusion 360 environment. I'd like to switch to KiCad + FreeCad at home to get entirely away from the cloud, but I've had a hard time unlearning Fusion 360 enough to grok FreeCad so far.

[notsob]

Same here. Autodesk went out of their way to suck in the customers and then moved the $ goal posts
do you remember when you could buy software something like Coraldraw, that worked online for a single purchase price.
As many are doing, I'm unlearning Fusion 360 and slowly skilling my ability in freecad and Kicad