Author Topic: Religious technical opinions  (Read 11907 times)

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Offline Someone

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Re: Religious technical opinions
« Reply #50 on: February 25, 2022, 12:33:31 am »
vim is the only editor, vim is the best editor, if you disagree you've not really tried it (or using emacs which is fine) <vim makes me forget tabs vs spaces is a thing>
Citation needed  ;) (consider the title/OP of the thread)
https://vim.fandom.com/wiki/Indent_with_tabs,_align_with_spaces
Promoting never mixing tabs and spaces, like the repeated suggestions in this thread:
then you cannot use tabs to bring anything after some ragged text into alignment, only for the start of line before other characters.
BTW, an actually useful argument in favor of tabs:
https://www.reddit.com/r/javascript/comments/c8drjo/nobody_talks_about_the_real_reason_to_use_tabs/

It seems the most effective use is to combine both, tabbing only to set indentation, then only spaces to align text
It seems the most effective use is to combine both, tabbing only to set indentation, then only spaces to align text e.g. when you have to lay out a table or something in the comments,
Exactly this. Tabs are the right way because then everyone can choose their exact own preference, and code base written with tab indentation on the left will automagically just work for any setting. There is then no need to fight over the "right" amount of indentation.
 

Offline alexanderbrevig

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Re: Religious technical opinions
« Reply #51 on: February 25, 2022, 07:25:05 am »
vim is the only editor, vim is the best editor, if you disagree you've not really tried it (or using emacs which is fine) <vim makes me forget tabs vs spaces is a thing>
Citation needed  ;) [...]

I've had a hard time finding research on the subject, but every poll I looked at, vim is on top :)
https://slashdot.org/poll/1717/favorite-text-editor
https://opensource.com/life/15/7/your-preferred-text-editor
https://www.linux.org/threads/poll-favorite-text-editor.6
I know these only mean that the users of say slashdot, that are willing to cast a vote, prefer vim.

Tabs vs spaces should not be a religious opinion as some file formats will dictate one or the other.
  • YAML = spaces
  • Makefile recipes = tabs
There's no way around it.
If your editor can't help you with it, shame on it. If you don't change from archaic tools, shame on you ;)
Notepad++ et.al is like a crusty old soldering pen, where vim and emacs are the JBC and Metcal. Tools you can trust, and that grow with you.  :-+
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Religious technical opinions
« Reply #52 on: February 25, 2022, 07:25:15 am »
I don't get why people still argue about tabs vs spaces!?

Because many people enjoy arguing, or even if they don't enjoy it, they are addicted to it.

Using spaces to indent code is an excellent argument generator, because you can argue about the number of spaces and spaces vs. tabs until cows come home.

Just using tabs, with the designated key on the keyboard, designed for exactly this purpose, would be too obvious, trivial, and Just Work. Therefore, it's not acceptable.
 
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Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Religious technical opinions
« Reply #53 on: February 25, 2022, 07:28:14 am »
... practically you need to remember though that starting an edit war is the worst thing you can do. Even if you prefer the other way, when working in team projects, you have to cope with the choices made by others. The silver lining is, a file with either spaces or tabs is always somehow manageable.
 
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Offline alexanderbrevig

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Re: Religious technical opinions
« Reply #54 on: February 25, 2022, 07:34:35 am »
... practically you need to remember though that starting an edit war is the worst thing you can do. Even if you prefer the other way, when working in team projects, you have to cope with the choices made by others. The silver lining is, a file with either spaces or tabs is always somehow manageable.

I agree, though choices should be explicit in an https://editorconfig.org/ file (or something similar).
 

Offline newbrain

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Re: Religious technical opinions
« Reply #55 on: February 25, 2022, 09:24:36 am »
when working in team projects, you have to cope with the choices made by others.
This.
Working alone do whatever you like. Use edlin if you like.
In any sufficiently mature organization there will be design rules, coding and style guidelines, and the code should not pass inspection if it does not abide by them.
Spacing is only a very secondary part of those rules.
They might not always be the best possible, and you have a right and in my case also a duty to try and improve them, but just complaining or being an anarchist is wasted effort or, worse, disruptive.

The coding standard in the section where I work (8 spaces - you might catch the odd tab in some old codebase) does not match my preference (4 spaces - no tabs), but I see no reason to push for my personal preference - and I'm in the group that can decide on that kind of change.
Nandemo wa shiranai wa yo, shitteru koto dake.
 
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Offline samnmax

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Re: Religious technical opinions
« Reply #56 on: February 25, 2022, 12:08:01 pm »
Personally, I prefer spaces. Mainly because I constantly use vertical alignment between different lines, for clarity.
For example:
Code: [Select]
if ((vdsstat1.bit.VDS_H1 == 0u) &&
    (vdsstat1.bit.VDS_L1 == 1u) &&
    (vdsstat1.bit.VDS_H2 == 1u) &&
    (vdsstat1.bit.VDS_L2 == 0u))
{

If I had written it using tabs, with 4 spaces per tab, when someone with their editor set to 2 spaces per tab opened it, they would see this:

Code: [Select]
if ((vdsstat1.bit.VDS_H1 == 0u) &&
  (vdsstat1.bit.VDS_L1 == 1u) &&
  (vdsstat1.bit.VDS_H2 == 1u) &&
  (vdsstat1.bit.VDS_L2 == 0u))
{

With spaces, code stays how I wrote it. ^-^
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Religious technical opinions
« Reply #57 on: February 25, 2022, 12:10:34 pm »
Quote
Those who use underscores as delimiters in net labels rather than hyphens

Uh... <guilty look> What's the issue there?

Edit: Altium do it.

You made it look better by selecting something else and fading everything. Depending on the view sometimes you cannot see the underscore at all. Especially on a printout. I never use underscores on net labels EXCEPT on differential pair net labels where Altium sadly gives the user no option.

A better practice, IMO, is for example:

I2C-CLOCK     
nRESET        // Reset active when low
3V3              // +3.3V, positve by default
-5V              // Must be a negative because it is not joining two words.

Altium should fix this up so underscores can always be seen. A colleague said to me a few years ago, "Altium needs to completely re-architect and rewrite  their software and not make it backwardly compatible. Start afresh, make the menus a bit smarter and more logical and fix the kludges up, like the harnesses. Also those sheet properties with the various title bar fields.. what a mess. I could add that Altium 365 is a bit of a mess too, but it works once everything is painfully set up between companies.

If I was granted one wish for a feature, it would be for a "paint" feature like we get in MS Word, so that the attributes like fonts etc can easily be painted onto different text fields or whatever. As it is, it's a pin in the arse.

 

Offline alexanderbrevig

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Re: Religious technical opinions
« Reply #58 on: February 25, 2022, 12:55:04 pm »
[...]
A better practice, IMO, is for example:

I2C-CLOCK     
[...]

This makes it so you _must_ make a drag selection for selecting the whole label. Try double clicking I2C-CLOCK, then on I2C_CLOCK and be convinced to not use hyphens for identifiers.  8)
« Last Edit: February 25, 2022, 12:58:01 pm by alexanderbrevig »
 

Online PlainName

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Re: Religious technical opinions
« Reply #59 on: February 25, 2022, 01:51:04 pm »
Quote
Those who use underscores as delimiters in net labels rather than hyphens

Uh... <guilty look> What's the issue there?

Edit: Altium do it.

You made it look better by selecting something else and fading everything.


I did not. That's a straight screencap from the Altium help pages:

https://www.altium.com/documentation/altium-designer/sch-obj-netlabelnet-label-ad

I thought that was obvious from the figure label "Net labels identify and..." 'Sok, no need to apologise.

Quote
Depending on the view sometimes you cannot see the underscore at all. Especially on a printout.

Yes, after posting that clip I realised the problem. I use underscores for two reasons:

1. (this involved natural language but, thinking about it, it's not really applicable)

2. A hyphen is a no-no in code, and I like to use the same label in both schematic and code (to avoid confusion). Probably comes from my software background, although I did hardware before that - you certainly realise if you get it wrong in code, whereas a schematic label just starts an argument on a web forum :)

Quote
Altium should fix this up so underscores can always be seen.

That would help, but it seems to me you can fix it yourself by choosing a suitable font. For instance, one where the underscore is at the same lower level as a normal character - the only reason underscores are that low is because you could overtype, but that's no possible on a computer (generally) so an underscore is always going to be on its own. If Altium provided that font it would encourage all users to use it, but it's possible to adapt your own without any input from Altium. Maybe someone has already done it.
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Religious technical opinions
« Reply #60 on: February 25, 2022, 05:55:15 pm »
Personally, I prefer spaces. Mainly because I constantly use vertical alignment between different lines, for clarity.
For example:
Code: [Select]
if ((vdsstat1.bit.VDS_H1 == 0u) &&
    (vdsstat1.bit.VDS_L1 == 1u) &&
    (vdsstat1.bit.VDS_H2 == 1u) &&
    (vdsstat1.bit.VDS_L2 == 0u))
{

Use tabs to intend the "base" left side (where the if starts, usually one tab if this is in a function body, or two if inside a function and a loop), then continue with spaces to align for a fixed number of characters (to match the length of "if (" ). This way, the text aligns the same, but others can still use whatever tab width setting!
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Religious technical opinions
« Reply #61 on: February 25, 2022, 07:43:42 pm »
In the early years of my career, I was an electrician.  Apparently the trade has a long history!

I prefer that the Tab key put in as many spaces as required.  No tabs in the file!  It's not the '70s anymore, file size isn't that important when you have multiple multiple terabyte drives.

I think I'm just going to let Visual Studio Code and Visual Studio decide how to do the indenting.  There seems to be some thought behind the algorithm.  Anyway, whoever wrote it is a whole lot smarter than me.

How about a language where white space is ignored - totally ignored - like FORTRAN:

DO10I=1  -- an assignment statement to variable DO10I?
DO10I=1,3 -- right up until the compiler sees the comma and decides it is the start of a DO loop terminating at statement 10.

 
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Offline billbyrd1945

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Re: Religious technical opinions
« Reply #62 on: February 25, 2022, 08:12:14 pm »
What really, really chaps me is the euphemism "slept together". Since I was born in 1945, I've seen all kinds of "loosenings" of mores for better or worse. Lucy and Ricky Ricardo slept in twin beds. Nowadays, even news broadcasters use "pissed" "pissed off", but you can't say you took a piss. And that's fine by me (the last part). But since we do use all kinds of words nowadays that were once forbidden in polite company, why in the hell can't we say "had sex together" instead of "slept together". You can even show two people under a sheet together being intimate. It's not a coincidence that all TV programming adheres to that convention. Someone decided that's the way it would be. You can't virtue signal with "slept together" and then show a couple humping under a sheet as they "sleep together". And that's another thing: Where do these people get off deciding such things. Oh, and one more thing, and this may be just me: Any time you see the back of a laptop on TV (probably movies too), it's always a Mac. Why is that? If it's not a Mac, it's some generic no-name badge. It's never HP, never Dell. And that would bother me even if I used a Mac, which I don't because I'm primitive and backward and slow and from the south. I feel better now.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Religious technical opinions
« Reply #63 on: February 25, 2022, 08:22:18 pm »
Well I've no idea where that whole rant came from or how it's topical, but..

Oh, and one more thing, and this may be just me: Any time you see the back of a laptop on TV (probably movies too), it's always a Mac. Why is that? If it's not a Mac, it's some generic no-name badge. It's never HP, never Dell.

Because Apple have a gigantic marketing budget and, unlike HP and Dell, do not own the market, so they're the ones spending money to gain market share. It's called product placement.
 

Online PlainName

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Re: Religious technical opinions
« Reply #64 on: February 25, 2022, 09:26:28 pm »
Quote
It's not the '70s anymore, file size isn't that important when you have multiple multiple terabyte drives.

It has nothing whatever to do with file size. So far as I'm aware, it never has.
 

Offline billbyrd1945

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Re: Religious technical opinions
« Reply #65 on: February 25, 2022, 10:08:28 pm »
Because Apple have a gigantic marketing budget and, unlike HP and Dell, do not own the market, so they're the ones spending money to gain market share. It's called product placement.

Yep. I don't know why I didn't think of that. You're right.
 

Offline RJSV

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Re: Religious technical opinions
« Reply #66 on: February 26, 2022, 01:48:43 am »
I did not see any reference here, but 'another' pain, happened when, God forbid, a WEB Site guy, (complete criminal hack, actually), got hold of my document (US Patent appl), and proceeded to 're-format' my huge document...by script commands...(sighhhh).
Oh...and MADE MY COPIES READ-ONLY...

Now, what was your prob, again ? (lol)
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Religious technical opinions
« Reply #67 on: February 26, 2022, 02:39:34 am »
Quote
It's not the '70s anymore, file size isn't that important when you have multiple multiple terabyte drives.

It has nothing whatever to do with file size. So far as I'm aware, it never has.

I kind of think it was, back in the day where we only had SSSD 8" floppies (and maybe only one drive at that) of 256k bytes. 

https://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~rwest/wikispeedia/wpcd/wp/f/Floppy_disk.htm

UCSD Pascal used to encode the space count at the beginning of a line into 2 byte sequences when working with text files. 

See --tabs page 30 here:

http://ucsd-psystem-fs.sourceforge.net/ucsd-psystem-fs-1.22.pdf

Of course, this was a long time ago.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2022, 02:41:33 am by rstofer »
 
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Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Religious technical opinions
« Reply #68 on: February 26, 2022, 05:56:11 am »
I'm primitive and backward and slow and from the south.
I'm primitive and backward and slow and from the far north.  I hate cellphones.  I hate instant messaging even more.  E-mail and SMS are fine.

I understand how certain words and concepts are rude and maybe disgusting, like talking about the smells one encounters fixing sewers, at a formal dinner.  What I do not understand is how certain words and concepts can be banned.  There is a time and place for everything, and banning seems to me to be a religious closing-of-eyes ruling.  "Lalalalala I can't hear you, and therefore you don't exist."



As to the subject at hand, it may be more useful to consider axiomatic technical opinions instead.  The difference is that religious belief is an assertion; an axiom is an initial condition used to base useful knowledge on.  For example, Kirchhoff's circuit laws aren't a religious opinion, they are just an axiom a DC or (long-wavelength AC) circuit designer can use to build an useful working circuit; or a person can use to analyze the operation of such an existing circuit.

It becomes a religious belief only when you deny the existence and applicability of Maxwell's equations; or if you assert that Kirchhoff's circuit laws apply to high-frequency/short-wavelength AC circuits too.

As to tabs/spaces, I don't have any trouble using whatever the project I'm working on.  I do have a personal preference, but it's about as strong as my preference for ice cream flavours, or pizza.  (I don't get fazed by pineapple on pizza, either.  My favourite tea flavours have bergamot oil [a citrus derivative, in Earl Grey tea], and I enjoy a bit of vanilla in my coffee [with milk, too], but I dislike cinnamon, after an unfortunate incident of gorging myself with cinnamon buns as a small child.)
I believe the reason for this is that because I have done so much drive-by bug-fixing and patches, the fact that the diffs apply cleanly is much more important for me, in terms of time and effort.

The way I like to align my variable names and in my own code prefer to add an extra space at certain places is a much bigger "issue"; many people don't like them.  Because I'm backward and slow, I value the interaction with others more than my own inconsequential preferences, so when not "hacking" or providing "a crude example", I worry more about readability and maintainability considering the possible developer set.  This also explains why I often use Python for UIs and C for the actual number crunching: a majority of my potential users have machines with Python already installed, it is a scripting language (no development environment needed) with a gentle learning curve, so users who have ideas can easily try and enhance the UIs I've made, and if they succeed, they'll hopefully let me know too.  Python itself isn't that good in my opinion, it's just the least unsuitable one.



A completely different aspect is that humans love their tools.

The religious aspect shows up only when they want to use their favourite tool to solve all problems, especially in domains they have zero experience in themselves.
"When the hammer is your only tool, all problems start looking like nails."

The best antidote to this is experimenting with a wide variety of tools and wildly different problems.
 

Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Religious technical opinions
« Reply #69 on: February 26, 2022, 06:28:02 am »
Story time.  It's related, I promise.

At the end of the last century, I taught basic IT skills at an university: things like how to use email, email attachments, word processing in structured writing (essays, articles, thesis, as you normally have to do at an university), and so on.  (Yes, I was a very young, barely adult whippersnapper back then.)

I did not teach Microsoft Word.  I taught how word processing programs work and approach the task of structured writing, with Microsoft Word as the example at hand.
Things like why one needs to use styles instead of just picking the font and size (answer: because that way you mark the structure of your writing, and get things like indexes and lists of figures automatically), how to control section numbering and numbering formats, page numbering, and so on.
I created the material online, and the only compulsory part was a basic test (that anyone with actual word processing skills could do in fifteen minutes or less) that was only graded as pass/fail, passing required before participating in courses that required those skills.  (Another was image processing, with Adobe Photoshop as the example.)

The students split into three completely distinct groups:
  • Hey, I didn't know I could be this efficient with a word processing program! Neat, this saves me a LOT of time.
  • I've used Word for years, and this test is a pain in the butt.  An hour is not enough time to number the 45 pages (of supplied Lorem Ipsum -like filler text)!  This is unfair!  I'm going to complain to the head of the department so I can get a pass anyway.
  • I'm NOT interested in knowing how these programs work.  Can't you just show me which buttons to press so I can memorize them, and be done with this stupid computer stuff?

I loved dealing with the first group.  My approach was to always show how to do things the easy way, without compromising say visual layout.  (Things like showing that if you have a specific layout you use very often –– like I do with article-like notes I write for myself for long-term use ––, you can do a template with those pre-set.)

Showing the third group that the work in the "exam" was exactly like the stuff they are supposed to work on later on in their studies, was usually enough.  That the course/exam was necessary, for them to be able to do the work in reasonable time, and to be able to communicate effectively with each other (future colleagues) and the lecturers and professors.  Some were just overwhelmed with the stuff they needed to learn, and had a culture shock with how different university was to high school.

The second group was the hardest to deal with.  (It was only later that I realized that power users who only have used a single operating system, have the most difficulties in transferring their skill-set to another operating system, for exactly the same reason.  Simply put, it is easier to teach a typical computer illiterate to become a Linux/Unix sysadmin, than it is to teach a typical Windows-only power user or sysadmin for the same position, because the latter has to un-learn first.)

They had already learned and adopted an approach to using programs, especially word processing programs.  So, when that turned out to be completely bass-ackwards and inefficient, not only does it mean they had to un-learn, they also had to admit that they didn't know what they thought they knew.  That's a blow to anyones ego; I know from personal experience.  Repeated personal experience.

Note, however, that none of this involved "religious" or "axiomatic" opinions.  It was just an end result of using a tool (word processing) like another tool (typewriters, except with More Fonts) they knew before, without spending the time or effort to understand how that tool can be used in the easiest and most efficient manner.

Compare to the space/tab discussion above: the points of when to use spaces and when to use tabs that describe an actual use case, are very useful.  There is nothing religious or axiomatic in that, just discussing scenarios where using a tool in a specific way is useful.  On the other hand, those who simply state what they prefer, only provide a single data point, a single factoid; and nothing others can evaluate or consider.

Thus, we come to my perennial complaint: Instead of stating your opinion only, please describe the reasoning or experience you base your opinion on.
If you cannot describe such basis, do consider whether your opinion has any worth, even to yourself; or perhaps it is something you ought to reconsider.
It is only that reasoning or experience that is useful to others, because we're not religious automata that adopt new opinions just because they were presented to us.

Well, I definitely hope we aren't, that is.
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Religious technical opinions
« Reply #70 on: February 26, 2022, 10:14:34 am »
You can't virtue signal with "slept together" and then show a couple humping under a sheet as they "sleep together". And that's another thing: Where do these people get off deciding such things. Oh, and one more thing, and this may be just me: Any time you see the back of a laptop on TV (probably movies too), it's always a Mac. Why is that? If it's not a Mac, it's some generic no-name badge. It's never HP, never Dell. And that would bother me even if I used a Mac, which I don't because I'm primitive and backward and slow and from the south. I feel better now.
There’s plenty of product placement from other computer brands. You definitely see Dell and HP gear, too. Microsoft has done tons of product placement for the Surface line.

You think it’s only Apple, but if you pay attention, it very clearly is not. Apple is clearly the #1, but given that product placement is insanely cheap marketing, it comes down more to who is willing to give it, and who’s asking, and what the producers think looks best in their show. Often, it’s literally just aesthetics and popularity. Apple devices have always been overrepresented in media due to aesthetics — even in the days when Apple’s market share was at its lowest and the company was popularly believed to be on death’s door. (Yet it’s also been said that at the time, Apple did not even sponsor product placement.)

See e.g.

https://productplacementblog.com/tag/laptops-and-notebooks/
https://productplacementblog.com/tag/apple/
https://productplacementblog.com/tag/dell/
https://productplacementblog.com/tag/hewlett-packard/
https://productplacementblog.com/tag/microsoft/

I don’t know that site’s methodologies, so we cannot assume their statistics are representative. I provide them simply to disprove the claim that other computer brands ”never” do product placement. Moreover, your claim of “generic no-name badges” only says you don’t know what the badges are. It doesn’t mean they’re no-name, nor generic.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2022, 10:28:49 am by tooki »
 

Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: Religious technical opinions
« Reply #71 on: February 26, 2022, 10:57:20 am »
If you cannot describe such basis, do consider whether your opinion has any worth, even to yourself; or perhaps it is something you ought to reconsider.
It is only that reasoning or experience that is useful to others, because we're not religious automata that adopt new opinions just because they were presented to us.

Perhaps we should emblazon this above the 'compose' textbox, rather than faffing around with 'thanks' mechanics? ;D

Appreciate the story, as always. :)

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 
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Online PlainName

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Re: Religious technical opinions
« Reply #72 on: February 26, 2022, 12:04:18 pm »
Quote
UCSD Pascal used to encode the space count at the beginning of a line into 2 byte sequences when working with text files.

See --tabs page 30 here:

http://ucsd-psystem-fs.sourceforge.net/ucsd-psystem-fs-1.22.pdf

Interesting. Of course, it could mean UCSD knew the proper solution to tabs vs spaces right back then :)
 

Offline m k

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Re: Religious technical opinions
« Reply #73 on: February 26, 2022, 12:10:03 pm »
I use as little indent as possible so that 10th indent is still sort of around.
For same reason I'm also adding rows instead of using wide single line stuff.

I've also learned that there's a tool for source code text styling.
Advance-Aneng-Appa-AVO-Beckman-Danbridge-Data Tech-Fluke-General Radio-H. W. Sullivan-Heathkit-HP-Kaise-Kyoritsu-Leeds & Northrup-Mastech-REO-Simpson-Sinclair-Tektronix-Tokyo Rikosha-Topward-Triplett-Tritron-YFE
(plus lesser brands from the work shop of the world)
 

Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Religious technical opinions
« Reply #74 on: February 26, 2022, 12:20:55 pm »
Also, one needs to remember that diff has option -b, and patch has option -l.  (They create and apply patches ignoring differences in the number and type of whitespace characters.)
 


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