Author Topic: Random Number Generators, the Diehard Tests and the Mayor of Douglassville  (Read 30059 times)

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Offline HAL-42bTopic starter

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Re: Random Number Generators, the Diehard Tests and the Mayor of Douglassville
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2016, 03:29:45 pm »
If we are concerned with entropy for cryptology, it makes a pure statistical approach useless. We also need to be concerned with the physical system and its side channels.

Hear hear. We also need to consider supply chain integrity and complete verifiability at the point of use.
 

Offline MT

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Re: Random Number Generators, the Diehard Tests and the Mayor of Douglassville
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2016, 06:47:28 pm »
This is one of those pieces of science fantasy; there is no such thing as a random number, random act or anything random. Randomness exists only in the minds of people who cannot grasp chaotic events.

Nothing in the universe is random, it only appears to be to those who cannot understand chaotic events.

 :palm: :palm: :palm:
I don't buy into the "Universe was created by a random event" that for one thing is a cop out. Just admitting "We don't know the event that brought the Universe into being" is good enough. We don't know nearly enough to come to any reasonable conclusion regarding the creation of the Universe or most everything else such as what makes gravity work.

All this discussion regarding so called randomness just proves my point. The concept of randomness is a construct
used by man's simple mind to explain events that are far more complex than man and his simple mind can understand.

Attributing something to a random event is no more realistic than our ancestors attributing the sun rise to a fictional god.

Randomness assumes there is no cause that can be predicted, I don't buy into that.

Whatever you say mr God! Here is a toy, called double pendulum, for you to waste your advanced mind on! I'll take nap.. :=\
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 06:54:42 pm by MT »
 

Offline helius

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Re: Random Number Generators, the Diehard Tests and the Mayor of Douglassville
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2016, 06:57:05 pm »
chaos is pretty much the opposite of randomness, because it is perfectly predictable based on accurate starting conditions. Otherwise there would be no animated gif for you to show, because every time the page loaded it would need to be different!
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: Random Number Generators, the Diehard Tests and the Mayor of Douglassville
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2016, 06:57:55 pm »
This is one of those pieces of science fantasy; there is no such thing as a random number, random act or anything random. Randomness exists only in the minds of people who cannot grasp chaotic events.

Nothing in the universe is random, it only appears to be to those who cannot understand chaotic events.

 :palm: :palm: :palm:
I don't buy into the "Universe was created by a random event" that for one thing is a cop out. Just admitting "We don't know the event that brought the Universe into being" is good enough. We don't know nearly enough to come to any reasonable conclusion regarding the creation of the Universe or most everything else such as what makes gravity work.

All this discussion regarding so called randomness just proves my point. The concept of randomness is a construct
used by man's simple mind to explain events that are far more complex than man and his simple mind can understand.

Attributing something to a random event is no more realistic than our ancestors attributing the sun rise to a fictional god.

Randomness assumes there is no cause that can be predicted, I don't buy into that.

Whatever you say mr God! Here is a toy, called double pendulum, for you to waste your advanced mind on! I'll take nap.. :=\


That is Miss GOD by the way.
I am not equipped like you, my reproductive organs are on the INSIDE.
Sue AF6LJ
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: Random Number Generators, the Diehard Tests and the Mayor of Douglassville
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2016, 06:59:05 pm »
chaos is pretty much the opposite of randomness, because it is perfectly predictable based on accurate starting conditions. Otherwise there would be no animated gif for you to show, because every time the page loaded it would need to be different!

Indeed.  8)  :-+
Sue AF6LJ
 

Offline MT

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Re: Random Number Generators, the Diehard Tests and the Mayor of Douglassville
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2016, 09:44:34 pm »
That is Miss GOD by the way.
I am not equipped like you, my reproductive organs are on the INSIDE.
Whatever you say Miss/mr god'ess whatever , nobody are forcing you or helios to buy or believe anything,
else why not contemplate over Tim's suggestion one more time, he addressed you specifically, here it is:

Quote
This is one of those pieces of science fantasy; there is no such thing as a random number, random act or anything random. Randomness exists only in the minds of people who cannot grasp chaotic events.
Nothing in the universe is random, it only appears to be to those who cannot understand chaotic events.
 :palm: :palm: :palm:

Well, I guess you aren't a physicist... but if so, that's okay.

I will give you this challenge: I have a sensitive amplifier connected to a resistor.  If the resistor's noise is chaotic rather than Johnson-Nyquist noise, you should be able to come up with some ways of influencing its statistics externally (without otherwise changing its value, or changing the rest of the circuit).

Indeed, this is one of those "million dollar challenge" kinds of things. I don't think it is, but perhaps it should be.
I expect a suitable proposal, put forward to James Randi, could be added to the list. So there you have it, an easy million.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 02:58:13 am by MT »
 

Offline Alexei.Polkhanov

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Re: Random Number Generators, the Diehard Tests and the Mayor of Douglassville
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2016, 10:55:09 pm »
I think I wont really gain anything if I know who is right.
What do want to know however is do we have a method, that is experimental, theoretically correct and practically verifiable method to distinguish between an arbitrary pseudo random sequence and one that deemed to be truly random and generated by physical process such as radioactive decay?

Suppose I have generated 2 random sets of numbers - one generated by (good, not naive) algorithm another by noise diode. I lost my code and all initial conditions and I don't know which set is which. How do I proceed?
 
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Random Number Generators, the Diehard Tests and the Mayor of Douglassville
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2016, 11:07:57 pm »
Quote
If the resistor's noise is chaotic rather than Johnson-Nyquist noise, you should be able to come up with some ways of influencing its statistics externally (without otherwise changing its value, or changing the rest of the circuit).

Regardless of the nature of the signal sources, you can always change its statistics externally by feeding that signal through a "shaping" amplifier: could be a low-pass filter for example that will make the singal more red; a high-pass filter making it more blue; a windowed comparator would limit its range, .....
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Offline helius

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Re: Random Number Generators, the Diehard Tests and the Mayor of Douglassville
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2016, 11:16:57 pm »
What do want to know however is do we have a method, that is experimental, theoretically correct and practically verifiable method to distinguish between an arbitrary pseudo random sequence and one that deemed to be truly random and generated by physical process such as radioactive decay?
Pseudorandom sequences all have a finite period. If you compare a long enough output they all start repeating eventually. That is the only theoretically correct difference.
But, I am not sure if you mean that you know what PRNG algorithm may have been used. Only some are "cryptographically secure," CPRNGs. For the ones that are not, it is feasible to look at some output and deduce the seed, which can then be used to predict the remainder of the sequence. In this special case, you can distinguish it from true randomness.

Quote
Suppose I have generated 2 random sets of numbers - one generated by (good, not naive) algorithm another by noise diode. I lost my code and all initial conditions and I don't know which set is which. How do I proceed?
If the noise diode output has not been whitened, it is likely to have stronger bias compared to a good pseudorandom generator.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 11:29:43 pm by helius »
 

Offline Alexei.Polkhanov

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Re: Random Number Generators, the Diehard Tests and the Mayor of Douglassville
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2016, 11:52:07 pm »
But, I am not sure if you mean that you know what PRNG algorithm may have been used. Only some are "cryptographically secure," CPRNGs. For the ones that are not, it is feasible to look at some output and deduce the seed, which can then be used to predict the remainder of the sequence. In this special case, you can distinguish it from true randomness.

Yes, if truly random sequence is very long chances that some combination of seed/PRNG  algorithm will generate exactly same sequence it is very low.

When I asked the question I did not mean it to be rhetorical. I was hoping for answer like - "there is an algorithm XXX, and also there is YYY" and a references to a web page or book where I can find it. I do have copy of "Art of Programming" and "Numerical Recipes" and few others on my shelf. They all seem to say that such tests are limited. Any mathematicians here - where are we on this problem? I am just curious.
 
 

Offline timb

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Random Number Generators, the Diehard Tests and the Mayor of Douglassville
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2016, 12:26:14 am »
That is Miss GOD by the way.
I am not equipped like you, my reproductive organs are on the INSIDE.
Whatever you say Miss/mr god'ess whatever , nobody are forcing you or helios to buy or believe anything, else why not contemplate over Tim's suggestion one more time:

Well, I guess you aren't a physicist... but if so, that's okay.

I will give you this challenge: I have a sensitive amplifier connected to a resistor.  If the resistor's noise is chaotic rather than Johnson-Nyquist noise, you should be able to come up with some ways of influencing its statistics externally (without otherwise changing its value, or changing the rest of the circuit).

Indeed, this is one of those "million dollar challenge" kinds of things. I don't think it is, but perhaps it should be.
I expect a suitable proposal, put forward to James Randi, could be added to the list. So there you have it, an easy million.

Well, it's obvious that only men can create noise with their Johnson, since (most) women lack them. On the other hand, AF6LJ (and other bipedal carbon based life forms with internal reproductive organs) would add plenty of hysteresis to the process.


Hyster(o)-
1. Uterus
2. Hysteria (Literally: "Womb Panic")
3. Later, after, following.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 12:30:05 am by timb »
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Random Number Generators, the Diehard Tests and the Mayor of Douglassville
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2016, 01:57:57 am »
People - Let me know when you've got a handle on the Lottery results.
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: Random Number Generators, the Diehard Tests and the Mayor of Douglassville
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2016, 03:05:56 pm »
That is Miss GOD by the way.
I am not equipped like you, my reproductive organs are on the INSIDE.
Whatever you say Miss/mr god'ess whatever , nobody are forcing you or helios to buy or believe anything, else why not contemplate over Tim's suggestion one more time:

Well, I guess you aren't a physicist... but if so, that's okay.

I will give you this challenge: I have a sensitive amplifier connected to a resistor.  If the resistor's noise is chaotic rather than Johnson-Nyquist noise, you should be able to come up with some ways of influencing its statistics externally (without otherwise changing its value, or changing the rest of the circuit).

Indeed, this is one of those "million dollar challenge" kinds of things. I don't think it is, but perhaps it should be.
I expect a suitable proposal, put forward to James Randi, could be added to the list. So there you have it, an easy million.

I think you miss the point;
Randomness has always been a "catch all word" for processes who's complexity is beyond our understanding.
Knowing this just puts everything in prospective.
Sue AF6LJ
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Random Number Generators, the Diehard Tests and the Mayor of Douglassville
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2016, 04:08:06 pm »
Code: [Select]
XXX    OOO    XXX    OOO
XXX    OOO    XOX    OXO
XXX    OOO    XXX    OOO

There is nothing special or odd about this combination. With real RNG It is likely like any other combination.
 

Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: Random Number Generators, the Diehard Tests and the Mayor of Douglassville
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2016, 08:11:46 pm »
I find information theory provides a perspective that ties things together nicely.

We know from physics that all elemental processes are reversible.  Why, then, should entropy increase?

Suppose we have a system of interacting particles.  Each particle can exchange some information with its neighbors, and so on.  We shall define the system as having a temperature, so that there is an average energy in the system, and therefore there is information to exchange.

This is necessary, because if the system were at absolute zero, then all particles would be in the ground state, and there would be no information to exchange.

Because interactions are necessarily reversible, the essence of "information", is knowing that a given particle, or set of particles, are absolutely known to be in some state.

Now, consider one particle.  It has a given existing state.  (If we're looking at, say, nuclear spins, then it might be spin-up or something.)

If that state is mixed with a neighboring state, the result is an entanglement of those two states.

In the new combined state, the fixed, known information (that the particle had a spin-up state) remains present.  But after this step, you now must test two particles, and subtract the "interference" (the unknown state entangled with it) to measure the original state.

If those new states mix with their neighbors, and so on, more and more individual states become entangled (and in more and more possible permutations), and more and more particles must be measured, and their interactions subtracted, in an ever more complex series of operations.

Effectively, the kernel of information contained in any one particle, at any point in this state-transition diagram, diffuses outward as more (unknown) states interact with, and dilute, it.

It is very difficult to explain a system like this without using chronological terms ("before", "after"), but this system can be described in abstract without any assumption of "time".  You can simply have, for example, an array of variables in computer memory, and iterate a function on it.  There is always a successor operation, and because the function is by definition reversible, there is always a predecessor operation, too.  You can use either function on the array.

But only one function, when iterated, will result in something that looks like "after".

Indeed, the arrow of time, is uniquely, and necessarily, identified by being the direction in which more states become mixed.

It is the inevitability of state mixing, of information diffusion, of information saturation -- the effect that I spoke of earlier, that information can always become more scrambled, but almost never, less -- that total entropy will rise, and it is in this direction that we experience "time" as we call it.


Perhaps this even gives insight into how one might attack my proposed problem:

Manipulate the statistics of Johnson-Nyquist noise in an otherwise ordinary resistor.

For simplicity's sake, perhaps we shall use a somewhat contrived resistor, one which is metallic, ohmic, has a nice characteristic impedance (so the noise is flat with frequency), and consists of as few atoms as possible, being perhaps nanometers wide.  We shall use a resistive element for the resistor itself, and superconducting wires to connect it to a very sensitive amplifier.  It will be cool, but hardly near absolute zero.  The dominant thermal modes will still be vibrational (phonon) and electric.

We also put it in a vacuum, so we avoid phonon coupling from gas molecules.  Being small, it also avoids basically any E&M radiation that would be a problem: as long as the whole resistor and superconducting wire leadouts are completed in some tens of nanometers, the structure should be literally "too small to see".

Furthermore, we construct as much as possible from isotopically pure substances, using spin-zero isotopes (for example, a carbon film resistor, diamond substrate and insulation).  This prevents nuclear moments from coupling as well.

That's the setup.  Now for the hard part.  Suppose we construct a phased array of frequency/energy-agile photon amplifiers, attached to the base of this resistor fixture.[1]  Since the only energy in the system is coming from thermal phonons, and phonon-electron interactions, it should be -- in principle, if the world is as ideal as you suppose -- possible to manipulate, in some way, the fluctuations seen at the resistor terminal.

Now, with "only" a few trillion atoms present, it should perhaps be possible to analyze the number of states, and by applying the correct sequence of phonon (vibrational) stimuli, manipulate the waves influencing the electrons, and perhaps manipulate the terminal voltage, ultimately.

This does have to be subject to an additional constraint: because you essentially have control over most vibrations in the system, it is trivially easy to change its temperature, and thus vary the noise intensity.  So I would further require that the average energy level from the phonon array be constant.  With, say, a 1000^2 array of elements, this will retain more than enough degrees of freedom to be able to manipulate the signal in more precise ways (i.e., not just turning the noise on and off).  In general, the data sent to the array will satisfy Maxwell-Boltzmann statistics, because it's the result of a deconvolution with some assumed model of the system's scattering behavior.  Likewise, the signal output can't exhibit a different RMS value, but for example, its frequency spectrum could be modulated to convey a message.

[1] No one knows how to do this, right now.  A Piezo array would be a good start, but ferroelectricity breaks down on small scales, so we can't make a nanometer scale phased array.  Some research has been done with phonon lasers and stuff, which might eventually give rise to such a generalized instrument.  For sake of argument, let's say we have one, though.

I'm not sure just how many states are necessary to analyze such a system.  Things go exponential (or factorial) really freaking quickly.  A million-wide phonon array might not even be sufficient to control a trillions-of-atoms system.  And the amount of memory and processing required to real-time solve the deconvolution is at least quadratic in that, so you're talking about basically doing DSP on the human genome in real time.  And you only have a single output variable (voltage), so you have to watch it for an extremely long time to study what any given input sequence is doing to it, if anything.

Clearly, doing this even for a very small, contrived system is difficult beyond belief; doing it for any macroscopic system, is patently impossible in the realest possible meaning: that, even if each and every other atom in the Observable Universe could be turned towards computing the history of a single cubic centimeter of matter, there would be no time scale over which accurate enough observations could be made, nor the analysis performed, where that state transition could ever be computed!

It is this, that it is the most technically impossible: in the thermodynamical, statistical, information-theoretic sense, that it is impossible to analyze bulk randomness.  It is not simply chaotic, it is manifest, pervasive and fully saturating.  To misunderstand this fact, is to delude oneself worse than thinking 1=2!

Tim
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Offline HAL-42bTopic starter

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Re: Random Number Generators, the Diehard Tests and the Mayor of Douglassville
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2016, 10:13:09 pm »
Code: [Select]
XXX    OOO    XXX    OOO
XXX    OOO    XOX    OXO
XXX    OOO    XXX    OOO

There is nothing special or odd about this combination. With real RNG It is likely like any other combination.


True, and herein lies the problem.

Computer algorithms like the ones in the Diehard suite which are used to check data for randomness may eliminate it because it does not 'appear' random.

This means the algorithms may rule out even an ideal RNG. The video in the original post implies that the algorithms may have been selected to do exactly that.

 

Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: Random Number Generators, the Diehard Tests and the Mayor of Douglassville
« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2016, 10:49:09 pm »
What's important is that the statistical tests fail at the predicted frequency.

Tim
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Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
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Offline dannyf

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Re: Random Number Generators, the Diehard Tests and the Mayor of Douglassville
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2016, 11:03:07 pm »

"This means the algorithms may rule out even an ideal RNG. "

That's one of the things pointed out earlier in the thread. Tests like the diehard are statistical / probabilistic. That means they are subject to type 1 and type 2 errors.
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Offline HAL-42bTopic starter

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Re: Random Number Generators, the Diehard Tests and the Mayor of Douglassville
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2016, 11:33:38 pm »
We know from physics that all elemental processes are reversible. 

News to me, Tim.

I thought a reversible process is by definition time-symmetric. This means that if you filmed a process on camera and played it back to someone, they wouldn't be able to tell by looking if the film was running forward or backwards because both cases would make perfect sense.

The Brownian motion is a good example of this. It makes perfect sense no matter which way you are playing the film.

Radioactive decay and some other quantum phenomena on the other hand are definitely not time symmetric and you can always tell which way the film is running.

For example if you see a film of X-ray particles impacting a photosensitive film you can definitely tell if the motion was running backwards. You do not expect blotches of developed film to condense back into an X-ray and fly away from the paper. The process is not time-symmetric and not reversible, even though it is (largely) predictable.

Quote
Manipulate the statistics of Johnson-Nyquist noise in an otherwise ordinary resistor.

For simplicity's sake, perhaps we shall use a somewhat contrived resistor, one which is metallic, ohmic, has a nice characteristic impedance (so the noise is flat with frequency), and consists of as few atoms as possible, being perhaps nanometers wide.  We shall use a resistive element for the resistor itself, and superconducting wires to connect it to a very sensitive amplifier.  It will be cool, but hardly near absolute zero.  The dominant thermal modes will still be vibrational (phonon) and electric.

We also put it in a vacuum, so we avoid phonon coupling from gas molecules.  Being small, it also avoids basically any E&M radiation that would be a problem: as long as the whole resistor and superconducting wire leadouts are completed in some tens of nanometers, the structure should be literally "too small to see".

Furthermore, we construct as much as possible from isotopically pure substances, using spin-zero isotopes (for example, a carbon film resistor, diamond substrate and insulation).  This prevents nuclear moments from coupling as well.

That's the setup.  Now for the hard part.  Suppose we construct a phased array of frequency/energy-agile photon amplifiers, attached to the base of this resistor fixture.[1]  Since the only energy in the system is coming from thermal phonons, and phonon-electron interactions, it should be -- in principle, if the world is as ideal as you suppose -- possible to manipulate, in some way, the fluctuations seen at the resistor terminal.

This boils down to the Markov Criteria from above. If you can't tell the next outcome by looking at the previous states it is 'good enough' for cryptographic purposes.

If we could know the state of each atom and each electron in the resistor we could theoretically tell what the next outcome would be.

The Heisenberg Uncertainty principle tells us that we can't actually look into a state of an electron without influencing it. So we are still cryptographically safe on that front.


In the end I am not disputing the existence of true RNGs. I fully accept that a simple resistor produces thermal noise which is fully random, unpredictable, satisfies the Markov Criteria and everything.


What I am after are the algorithms that test randomness in the RNGs. Apparently some of these are good and some of these are subtly tampered with in a way that they may fail a true RNG but pass a less than perfect RNG. My question from the beginning was about these algorithms.

Can these algorithms be influencing the development of true RNGs to be predictable in some very subtle way.

For example if you insist that the your RNG produces ones and zeroes in the exact 50% ratio even in short periods then you throw away the vast majority of your entropy.
 

Offline HAL-42bTopic starter

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Re: Random Number Generators, the Diehard Tests and the Mayor of Douglassville
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2016, 11:40:49 pm »

"This means the algorithms may rule out even an ideal RNG. "

That's one of the things pointed out earlier in the thread. Tests like the diehard are statistical / probabilistic. That means they are subject to type 1 and type 2 errors.


This is exactly what I'm trying to get at. Thank you.

But what do you mean by type 1 and type 2 errors?
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Random Number Generators, the Diehard Tests and the Mayor of Douglassville
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2016, 11:42:55 pm »
False positives and false negatives
 

Offline HAL-42bTopic starter

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Re: Random Number Generators, the Diehard Tests and the Mayor of Douglassville
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2016, 11:48:29 pm »
False positives and false negatives

Thank you!

So the simple test would be to take a true Random Number Generator, something based on radioactive decay or whatever and feed it to all those algorithms.

If any of the algorithms gives type 1 or 2 error we throw it out and all is well.

Seems easy enough.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Random Number Generators, the Diehard Tests and the Mayor of Douglassville
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2016, 11:59:46 pm »
It would really help you a lot if you read up more on statistics.
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Offline HAL-42bTopic starter

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Re: Random Number Generators, the Diehard Tests and the Mayor of Douglassville
« Reply #48 on: January 29, 2016, 12:24:15 am »
It would really help you a lot if you read up more on statistics.

Will do. Thanks  :-+
 



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