Proof by Measuring that Expensive speakers cable are total BS?

[Lightages]

I think that the easiest way to visualze the difference in the cables, if any exists, is to connect both cables to the output of an amplifier, feed the amplifier wide band white of pink noise, terminate each cable into a 8ohm power resistor, and then look at each cable on a multichannel scope. Using the math function on the scope, subtract one signal from the other and then you can see the differences in the signal. The accuracy will be limited by the accuracy of the scope of course.

If you want to eliminate the error of the scope inputs, then sample the outputs from the cables with an op amp in differential mode. Make it so you can short the inputs and null adjust the op amp first, then look at the difference between the cables as a difference signal on a scope.If nothing can be seen within the audio spectrum of human hearing, well that would basically prove that no difference exists for practical purposes.

The problem is that cables don't supply their current to passive and non-reactive loads. They are connected to rather complex and dynamically changing speaker loads. You will never get two speakers with the exact same characteristics, so the audiophiles with golden ears will tell you a non-reactive load is not showing you the difference in the cables.

Perhaps the solution to the latter problem is to set up a test configuration where you record the speaker output in an an-echoic chamber  with a sample rate and bit depth beyond needed for even the wildest claims of audiophile hearing, and then a change the cables. Take the two audio recordings and subtract them in an audio editor whilst making sure to get the files aligned perfectly time wise. The resulting waveform will display any differences between the cables.

Audiophiles will always find a way to disbelieve the results just religious people always find a away to reinterpret their holy books or twist words to explain away contradictions.

[james_s]

How about a 2.000 USD speaker (pair) vs a 20.000 USD speaker (pair)? Any snake oil there?

I don't know about $2 vs $20, but $2 vs $200 or $2000 -- like a cheap boombox speaker vs. a quality PA speaker or line array setup -- has immediately measurable, quantifiable differences just in terms of basic things like frequency response. That at least is also obvious enough to be directly audible!

Whether or not high end "boutique" or professional audio manufacturers charge too much for their equipment is another question, though.

Sometimes the high end equipment just looks cool, and that I suppose has value in itself. I mean people spend crazy money on artwork that has no function at all beyond looking cool.

[lordvader88]

I believe I have acquired about 5ft of "speaker" wire, however I have other plans for it, other plans indeed HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

[g.lewarne]

I have an audiophool friend who just would not listen to reason about stupid expensive speaker cables until I pointed out the most (in)obvious thing to him -

I'm paraphrasing, but it went something like this

"rob, you do realise that no matter how thick, pure and well insulated your cables are, you don't have any cables even remotely like that a) inside the speaker) and b) actually wound around the magnet driver coil which at best is some thinly enamel insulated solid copper thin brittle stuff soldered to a plated braided cable to the tabs"

he thought about that for a while, then stopped buying stupid speaker cables

[dimkasta]

So he was convinced that an issue exists but he decides not to fix it when you point out that it might exist in other places too?

That's like saying I will not fix my car's cracked headlight because it also has a cracked back stop light.

[Delta]

Easy.

One stereo amplifier, with the same audio signal fed into both channels.
Two identical speakers.
A 2ch 'scope with maths mode (Ch1 - Ch2)

[CJay]

So he was convinced that an issue exists but he decides not to fix it when you point out that it might exist in other places too?

That's like saying I will not fix my car's cracked headlight because it also has a cracked back stop light.

There is only so much improvement you can make by applying (dubious at best) sticking plasters to a system that isn't good enough to take advantage of them.

To use a car analogy, you could possibly, if you wanted, fit a wound Kevlar driveshaft from a Bugatti Veyron to a Chevy Voyager.

It'd make not one jot of difference to the performance because the original drive shaft was perfectly adequate for the job and the 'system' it's fitted to isn't capable of better performance so there comes a point where such 'upgrades' are just not worth the time, effort and money they cost.

A lot of the audiophool equipment out there is like gold plating the badge on your car, very pretty if that's your 'thing' but utterly pointless for any practical purpose other than the transfer of money from your wallet to the wallet of the person who owns the gold plating machine.

[dimkasta]

There is only so much improvement you can make by applying (dubious at best) sticking plasters to a system that isn't good enough to take advantage of them.

And yet your friend did perceive a significant change, and he was ready to spend his hard earned money on it.

To use a car analogy, you could possibly, if you wanted, fit a wound Kevlar driveshaft from a Bugatti Veyron to a Chevy Voyager.

It'd make not one jot of difference to the performance because the original drive shaft was perfectly adequate for the job and the 'system' it's fitted to isn't capable of better performance so there comes a point where such 'upgrades' are just not worth the time, effort and money they cost.

A lot of the audiophool equipment out there is like gold plating the badge on your car, very pretty if that's your 'thing' but utterly pointless for any practical purpose other than the transfer of money from your wallet to the wallet of the person who owns the gold plating machine.

That's an opinion.
If you want to argue with an opinion, then your friend's is as valid.

If you want to argue with facts, then you have a difficult job because you will have to prove that the measured and heard differences are not audible by anyone.

PS. Again, I am not arguing that it is worth to spend silly money.

[Ian.M]

If your cables are <1% of the inductance and DC resistance of what's inside the speaker cabinet + what's between the amp's output stage active devices and its terminals, then throwing more money at the cables is foolish as further improvements will be vanishingly small and increasingly more expensive.  Its better spent on other components of your system or dare I say it - Acoustic tile to disperse unwanted room reflections.

[xrunner]

"rob, you do realise that no matter how thick, pure and well insulated your cables are, you don't have any cables even remotely like that a) inside the speaker) and b) actually wound around the magnet driver coil which at best is some thinly enamel insulated solid copper thin brittle stuff soldered to a plated braided cable to the tabs"

Same for the power strips they spend thousands of dollars on. All it could effect is the last few few of AC power wiring. But what's behind the wall outlet, and all inside the wall all the way to the breaker box, tacked together with old wire nuts, probably has a few nicks in it due to rats chewing on it? Same old simple romex wire we all have, but seemingly plugging in a $3000 outlet strip on shock absorbers and made out of specially treated oak with braided AC wires fixes everything so much they claim you can hear the difference. Hahaha ...

"There's a sucker born every minute"

Walker Audio Velocitor S Quantum Resonance power strip - $3500 -

[dimkasta]

Out of topic but.... Earth in a box anyone? 

http://www.entreq.com/products/ground-boxes-17667704

Some people were actually surprised when the measurements emerged that there was no current flow towards it and it was just introducing new noise as an antenna

It even has imitators because as it seems it is a commercial success (probably because people don't really understand how ground works...)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aucharm-Audio-Grounding-Box-with-Crocodile-lip-Ground-Wire-/322387741958?hash=item4b0fce8d06:g:DOEAAOSwXeJYLbl6

[MarkS]

Out of topic but.... Earth in a box anyone? 

http://www.entreq.com/products/ground-boxes-17667704

Some people were actually surprised when the measurements emerged that there was no current flow towards it and it was just introducing new noise as an antenna

Wouldn't it be cheaper and easier to simply stick a bare wire in a potted plant?

I need to start an IndieGoGo page... Ground Pots! You will get an improvement in dynamic's, a lower noise floor and more natural flow in the sound, all while growing your favorite house plant!

[edit]

Oooohhh! I could market it to the health conscience audiophool! The plant will increase the amount of "free oxygen" in the air, while giving off "free radicals" that will... I'm stumped! A little help here!

[dimkasta]

I'm stumped! A little help here!

Needs more secret ingredients

[MarkS]

I'm stumped! A little help here!

Needs more secret ingredients

Special "growth medium" and "miracle vitamin elixir with electrolytes" to ensure proper growth and health of the plant while increasing ground conductivity... Again, stumped.  I need new age health jargon...

[dimkasta]

Special "growth medium" and "miracle vitamin elixir" to ensure... Again, stumped.  I need new age health jargon...

Make that gluten free something. It sells nicely these days, even to people without celiac disease

(and we 've gone too far with the joke... )

back on topic

[MarkS]

Special "growth medium" and "miracle vitamin elixir" to ensure... Again, stumped.  I need new age health jargon...

Make that gluten free something. It sells nicely these days, even to people without celiac disease

True. True. And it MUST be certified organic.

(and we 've gone too far with the joke... )

back on topic

BAH! The topic is absurd. Let's have some fun and think of ways to help me retire before I'm 50.

[dimkasta]

BAH! The topic is absurd. Let's have some fun and think of ways to help me retire before I'm 50.

Nothing absurd about discussing measurements and empirical observations.

Again, silly prices aside.

About retirement, still working on it myself...

[CJay]

Wouldn't it be cheaper and easier to simply stick a bare wire in a potted plant?

I need to start an IndieGoGo page... Ground Pots! You will get an improvement in dynamic's, a lower noise floor and more natural flow in the sound, all while growing your favorite house plant!

[edit]

Oooohhh! I could market it to the health conscience audiophool! The plant will increase the amount of "free oxygen" in the air, while giving off "free radicals" that will... I'm stumped! A little help here!

Noise floor is a bit of a dodgy one, it's something that can be measured so you'd want to avoid that, maybe 'harmonises the timbral serenity of the audio range' and offer different selections of 'ground', one from each recording studio or perhaps from the artist's home town to truly 'capture and ensonify the true recording influences'?

[Zbig]

Same for the power strips they spend thousands of dollars on. All it could effect is the last few few of AC power wiring. But what's behind the wall outlet, and all inside the wall all the way to the breaker box, tacked together with old wire nuts, probably has a few nicks in it due to rats chewing on it? Same old simple romex wire we all have, but seemingly plugging in a $3000 outlet strip on shock absorbers and made out of specially treated oak with braided AC wires fixes everything so much they claim you can hear the difference. Hahaha ...

"There's a sucker born every minute"

Walker Audio Velocitor S Quantum Resonance power strip - $3500 -

If I walked into someone's room and saw this, I think I'd just lose it. What's the most ridiculous piece of pure audiophool gear you've actually seen in someone's apartment?

[Richard Crowley]

If I walked into someone's room and saw this, I think I'd just lose it. What's the most ridiculous piece of pure audiophool gear you've actually seen in someone's apartment?

But you can't plug your $10000 power cables straight into the wall!

That is an ECONOMIC matching "balun" transformer.
Which side is "balanced" and which side is "unbalanced" is left as an exercise for the reader.

[Richard Crowley]

They are going at it hot and heavy over on: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/connectors-cables-stands-accessories/1124376-expensive-speaker-cables-better-than-cheap-ones-sorry-guys-ia-m-changing-team.html

Including several posts from "frenzy" who claims to be a "Sound on Sound contributor" making a fool (phool?) of himself in public.

[helius]

The only really relevant parameter for speaker cables is resistance, which is not that hard to measure. 
At audio frequencies, this has much more effect than other measurable properties of the cable. To see this, perform a transmission-line analysis using the velocity factor, capacitance, and inductance of the cable, and find the wavelength of the signal in the cable. As long as the cable is shorter than around 1/4 wavelength, capacitance and inductance are not very important; but you will find that they are very low anyway.

[BravoV]

When hearing the "directional" audio cable, as most of them are custom wrapped for the bling, will a mix of plain copper wires AND diode will affect the "direction" ?

Say for example the whole big cable has 10 big strands, take few of them (not all), cut and soldered with diodes, then wrap them neatly to look seamless, hidden under the bling-bling jacket.

Again, just a wild thought. 

[helius]

There should be no DC component to an audio signal, so using diodes will mess things up badly. From what I understand, the line-level cables marked with a "direction" have a shield connected at only one end. This is pretty stupid, since it can't solve any ground loop problems in this unbalanced configuration. It just adds "shielding" that won't do much in practice.

[Richard Crowley]

There should be no DC component to an audio signal, so using diodes will mess things up badly.

From what I understand, the line-level cables marked with a "direction" have a shield connected at only one end. This is pretty stupid, since it can't solve any ground loop problems in this unbalanced configuration. It just adds "shielding" that won't do much in practice.

Nobody with an IQ approaching their body temperature (Farenheit) would sell or buy an unbalanced audio cable with dis-continuous shield.  That would be congenitally broken.

However, it is not unusual to see balanced audio interconnections with shield connected only at one end.  Not to say that there doesn't remain some debate whether to connect the shield at the source or the destination end.

OTOH, the audiophool cables with arrows designating "direction" are complete bollocks.  Clearly aimed at the technically ignorant who don't understand what AC is.