Pronunciation of the word solder

[bsfeechannel]

According to the Online Etymology Dictionary, the origin of the word solder is from Old French soudur in the early 14c, already pronounced without the -l-. Soudur itself has its origins in the Old French word soldure, from the Old French verb solder. The loss of -l- in that position is a regular feature of Old French (in modern French these words are soudure, soudage, souder, etc., all without the -l-).

The spelling solder was reintroduced later in the 15c in English.

So it is possible that the Americans pronounce the early version of the word as it was introduced in English in the early 14c, while those who pronounce it with the -l- follow a more phonetic approach dictated by the reintroduction of the word in the 15c with a different spelling.

It is known for a fact that the variants spoken by (ex-)colonies sometimes preserve some archaic features of the language of their (ex-)metropolises that were current at the time of their colonization.

[tooki]

In the case of English, when one variant has retained an original form (or something noticeably closer to it) and the other has a newer form, it’s usually American English that’s retained the original form. (It’s why I find it so irritating when snobby brits accuse Americans of “corrupting” “their” language, or of being lazy, when in fact it was British English that changed away from the “original”, or rather, our obsolete common ancestor dialect...)

In any case I find it ridiculous to start a thread to rehash this sorry discussion. It never goes anywhere, and it happens spontaneously anyway on every single video about soldering that has an American speaker, without fail.

[beanflying]

Latin to French to English with the spelling settled into common usage as Solder by the 14-15 C. USA settled in the 1600's by the Poms with a goodly series of incursions by the French settlers who stayed may be closer to the truth of why the pronunciation is as it finished up in modern times in spite of the English spelling sticking?

The English remained not very good friends with the French for quite a while so french was on the nose like mouldy cheese as the English we have come to know became more established as an independent one. So the chances of English reverting to French words or pronunciations wasn't very high I suspect.

Just a possible theory and just so long as the bits stick together it doesn't matter that much either way.

Having a bit of banter or poking fun at accents about it shouldn't result in any serious butt hurt for anyone. Even the most neutral 'Swiss' with the different accents and dialects used across the country I am sure make their way into banter and humor.

[CatalinaWOW]

Yes, there are silent "L"s in plenty of words: would, calm, chalk, yolk etc.

Interesting variation on the theme.  This American, at least, uses a silent "L" in would, pronounces the "L" in calm and yolk, and is ambivalent on the sound in chalk.  Pure silent on solder.  I am sure if we were linguists or pursued this further we would find long lists of words where the "L" is elided or not in different parts of the English speaking world.

[james_s]

Something I find interesting is the way American English lost any sign of the British accent at some point quite a long time ago, despite the fact that the USA started out as a British colony. Countries like Australia that started in a vaguely familiar fashion retained an accent that while distinctly different, sounds much more British than American.

[beanflying]

In the Australian case we have the BBC and American Movies to thank or not thank

When you get to the Outback and in particular Queensland 'Owaryougoingmaaaatte orrightA' would maybe give you a different view There it is a lack of much media of any sort until the last 20 or so years so. The first time I was in Chicago for work a fair number of people couldn't understand what I was saying until I had to make a conscious effort to slow down and use better Pommie Diction

[Ice-Tea]

Do any other languages have such a great variety, in terms of pronunciation, as English?

We have dialects that make people 100km from my location near impossible to understand sometimes.

[Zero999]

In the case of English, when one variant has retained an original form (or something noticeably closer to it) and the other has a newer form, it’s usually American English that’s retained the original form. (It’s why I find it so irritating when snobby brits accuse Americans of “corrupting” “their” language, or of being lazy, when in fact it was British English that changed away from the “original”, or rather, our obsolete common ancestor dialect...)

In any case I find it ridiculous to start a thread to rehash this sorry discussion. It never goes anywhere, and it happens spontaneously anyway on every single video about soldering that has an American speaker, without fail.

Yes, American English is more like old English.

I think the accusation of laziness is mainly from the upper class because the Americans drop their "T"s everywhere, but as I'm sure you know, "T" dropping is common in British English as well and seems to becoming more widespread. I doubt it's purely anti-American as I've heard people refer to the Australian accent as thick, stupid, lazy etc.

I had no intention of offending anyone. I've stated my position on language snobbery before (it's bad, no one owns English and the Brits have no right to moan). I decided to make this thread because no one posted any samples. If you don't like the it, please ignore it.

[Zero999]

Yes, there are silent "L"s in plenty of words: would, calm, chalk, yolk etc.

Interesting variation on the theme.  This American, at least, uses a silent "L" in would, pronounces the "L" in calm and yolk, and is ambivalent on the sound in chalk.  Pure silent on solder.  I am sure if we were linguists or pursued this further we would find long lists of words where the "L" is elided or not in different parts of the English speaking world.

Dough, I got yolk wrong. That's not a silent L. I was thinking of yoke, a totally different word! English is confusing!

EDIT:
After a bit of research, I've discovered some people pronounce the L in yolk and some don't!

[tooki]

Having a bit of banter or poking fun at accents about it shouldn't result in any serious butt hurt for anyone. Even the most neutral 'Swiss' with the different accents and dialects used across the country I am sure make their way into banter and humor.

Lucky for me I’m not a “neutral Swiss” (not that the Swiss are neutral, quite the contrary!), I’m an American living abroad (with a minor in linguistics). The reason I react to this issue is that I have repeatedly had “snobby Brits” very aggressively attack American English, claiming that we are lazy speakers, that we don’t have the right to call it English, etc. — both online and in real life. It’s not “butthurt”, it’s frustration at the frequency of these arguments, which are anything but banter or humor, the initiators are frequently quite serious in their disdain for American English.

And it just gets ridiculous that 100% of soldering videos by Americans have half the comments from angry Brits complaining about the pronunciation, the usual argument being “lazy Americans, it has an L, so you must pronounce the L!!!!” To the usual counterexamples like could, would, walk, talk, etc., and to more extreme examples of non-obvious pronunciation (e.g. colonel), they usually just ignore it and repeat their position.

[beanflying]

Lucky for me I’m not a “neutral Swiss” (not that the Swiss are neutral, quite the contrary!), I’m an American living abroad (with a minor in linguistics). The reason I react to this issue is that I have repeatedly had “snobby Brits” very aggressively attack American English, claiming that we are lazy speakers, that we don’t have the right to call it English, etc. — both online and in real life. It’s not “butthurt”, it’s frustration at the frequency of these arguments, which are anything but banter or humor, the initiators are frequently quite serious in their disdain for American English.

And it just gets ridiculous that 100% of soldering videos by Americans have half the comments from angry Brits complaining about the pronunciation, the usual argument being “lazy Americans, it has an L, so you must pronounce the L!!!!” To the usual counterexamples like could, would, walk, talk, etc., and to more extreme examples of non-obvious pronunciation (e.g. colonel), they usually just ignore it and repeat their position.

Not sure if it is still the same in Switzerland but a good Swiss mate of mine said neighboring valleys could have trouble understanding each other like Ice-Tea put for Belgium.

Pronunciation for me is oh someone has an accent different to me and poking fun at Sodder goes back to the films we watched at Secondary School Electronics in the pre video era . Australians are as bad as any other English language speakers on the pronunciation front including the Poms them selves.

The intentional dropping of letters in spelling the words on the other hand  

[tooki]

Something I find interesting is the way American English lost any sign of the British accent at some point quite a long time ago, despite the fact that the USA started out as a British colony. Countries like Australia that started in a vaguely familiar fashion retained an accent that while distinctly different, sounds much more British than American.

It’s because we never had it to begin with. American English is a) based on the English of the English settlers of the 17th and 18th centuries, from all over England, as well as b) massively influenced by the English of the Irish settlers that came later. (Many native Dubliners speak a dialect so similar to American English as to be indistinguishable by most native English speakers.) The most prominent British feature that was kept in some US dialects is the non-rhotic (“silent”) R in both Southern and New England dialects. (And Appalachian mountain dialect has influence from Scottish English.)

The main mistake you, like most people, make is to essentially assume that British English stayed the same, while American English changed a lot. But why would English in Britain remain unchanged for 400 years? It didn’t. In fact, it changed more than American English did!! (French had the same thing with Quebec: the French in their former colony changed less than the French in the homeland!) When Hollywood makes a movie set in the middle ages and everyone is speaking something similar to the Queen’s English, it’s completely wrong — language historians say that it should sound much more like American English. whether the movie takes place in the New World or in medieval England.

The other British colonies were colonized in a much more ongoing fashion: they had settlers coming in from Britain until much later. Their closer ties to the homeland meant more pollination by modern British English. (Canada is a great example of this, having the same roots as American English, but with the continued British influence. So you get much the same foundation as American English, but with some distinctly more-British sounding pronunciations on a few words, e.g. “again”.)

[VK5RC]

From my perspective, yolk and yoke are pronounced exactly the same. No 'L' in either pronunciation.

[tooki]

Not sure if it is still the same in Switzerland but a good Swiss mate of mine said neighboring valleys could have trouble understanding each other like Ice-Tea put for Belgium.

For sure, people say that “every valley has its own dialect” and that’s not altogether wrong. However — with the big exception of Walliserdüütsch (Valais German) — they’re all mutually intelligible for the most part.

There’s a website called the “Chuchichäschtli-Orakel” that asks you how you pronounce 10 Swiss German words and then spits out which dialect you speak. For me, it very correctly says “City of Zurich”. But then someone else made a similar website just for the city, and with me, it indeed correctly pegs mine as “south east, lakeside”, which is precisely the neighborhood where I lived when learning Swiss German!!!

[Zero999]

From my perspective, yolk and yoke are pronounced exactly the same. No 'L' in either pronunciation.

Yes, there's some variation in the pronunciation of the word yolk, hence my confusion. I've edited my posts.

[VK5RC]

From my perspective, yolk and yoke are pronounced exactly the same. No 'L' in either pronunciation.

Yes, there's some variation in the pronunciation of the word yolk, hence my confusion. I've edited my posts.

I find the variation of dialects interesting, I suspect because in my state (South Australia) it doesn't vary much by district, so a little difference is interesting. Often there is also a bit of a story behind it as well.

[vk6zgo]

From my perspective, yolk and yoke are pronounced exactly the same. No 'L' in either pronunciation.

Yes, there's some variation in the pronunciation of the word yolk, hence my confusion. I've edited my posts.

I find the variation of dialects interesting, I suspect because in my state (South Australia) it doesn't vary much by district, so a little difference is interesting. Often there is also a bit of a story behind it as well.

"Crow eaters" did have some strange terms, like "buckboard" instead of "ute"(pickup truck to non-Oz
Folk).
I think that one has just about died out, though.
They eat some strange food, too, like "pea floaters".

In WA, it freaks us out when "t'othersiders " call Albany  "Orlbany", or Derby "Darby".
When two "Footy" teams from the same city play each other, it's a Derby, not a Darby!
Same goes for the town up North.

[jimdeane]

Maybe we should make a soundboard with regions and pronunciations. Or a video that cycles through all of us saying 'solder'.

[CatalinaWOW]

Some more words where the l can be silent or not depending on where you live, or where you learned English.

 balm, salmon, walk, talk, folk, calf and half.

My personal dialect has some strange didos in it.  I clearly use the "L" in walk, but don't in talk.  And in several of the words that have been listed I will omit the "L" in relaxed speech, but use it when speaking more formally.

For a view on how outsiders feel about this, I found this rule on a European English language instruction site.

"The "L" is silent when it follows the vowels a, o, and u."  It then goes on to list exceptions.  Apparently in continental Europe it should be sodder.

[bsfeechannel]

I’m an American living abroad (with a minor in linguistics).

Another EE with an interest in linguistics? What are the odds?

And it just gets ridiculous that 100% of soldering videos by Americans have half the comments from angry Brits complaining about the pronunciation, the usual argument being “lazy Americans, it has an L, so you must pronounce the L!!!!”

When I first heard the American pronunciation of solder I found it as strange as listening to "Hermione" for the first time in Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone.

Given the polemic, I decided to investigate. Now I can accept the American version without reservations.

The main mistake you, like most people, make is to essentially assume that British English stayed the same, while American English changed a lot. But why would English in Britain remain unchanged for 400 years? It didn’t. In fact, it changed more than American English did!! (French had the same thing with Quebec: the French in their former colony changed less than the French in the homeland!) When Hollywood makes a movie set in the middle ages and everyone is speaking something similar to the Queen’s English, it’s completely wrong — language historians say that it should sound much more like American English. whether the movie takes place in the New World or in medieval England.

The other British colonies were colonized in a much more ongoing fashion: they had settlers coming in from Britain until much later. Their closer ties to the homeland meant more pollination by modern British English. (Canada is a great example of this, having the same roots as American English, but with the continued British influence. So you get much the same foundation as American English, but with some distinctly more-British sounding pronunciations on a few words, e.g. “again”.)

You bet your bottom dollar that the same thing happened to other New World languages (Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch).

Like in the English case, things get really worse when these ex-colonies start to produce content (books, music, videos, films, etc.) using all those (in the current perspective of the ex-metropolises) "archaic", "regional" or "less prestigious" features and "invade" their ex-metropolises.

The accusations of ruining their once pure and heroic idiom abound.

Makes me wanna say: next time you feel the urge to colonize a distant land, don't.

[Wan Huang Luo]

Then we can mosey on over to the ladies and see how well they fare with the 'L' thang... 

An Aussie accent is an instant home run as far as American lasses are concerned.
Note: I found that an American accent has no such effect on Aussie lasses. It's not fair.

[Electro Detective]

Then we can mosey on over to the ladies and see how well they fare with the 'L' thang... 

An Aussie accent is an instant home run as far as American lasses are concerned.

Note: I found that an American accent has no such effect on Aussie lasses. It's not fair.

Sorry to hear that mate 

Have you tried the different breeds in the respective habitats? Female corporates, rural ladies, booze/ice bommed clubbers, caravan dwellers ? Lots to choose from 

Decent normal women (yes, there are a few left) may be shopping for commitment regardless of accent, which may or may not suit your intentions

Good luck next time, and whatever you do, please DON'T attempt to 'aussie up' your accent, it doesn't work 
I've heard it and it's a FAIL every time   


Tip: hook up with some aussie guys, let them do the first move hard yakka for ya  (G'Day Luv.. and Oi Youz! etc)   

[Wan Huang Luo]

Oh it’s far too late for those tips mate, I’m married now  

[james_s]

Over the longer term it probably doesn't make much difference. I find that while accents sound cool at first, once I've talked to somebody for a while I hardly even notice their accent anymore.

[tooki]

I’m an American living abroad (with a minor in linguistics).

Another EE with an interest in linguistics? What are the odds?

(Though technically, I’m an IT/UX/technical writing/translation professional and electronics hobbyist with an interest in linguistics. :p

You bet your bottom dollar that the same thing happened to other New World languages (Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch).

Like in the English case, things get really worse when these ex-colonies start to produce content (books, music, videos, films, etc.) using all those (in the current perspective of the ex-metropolises) "archaic", "regional" or "less prestigious" features and "invade" their ex-metropolises.

The accusations of ruining their once pure and heroic idiom abound.

Makes me wanna say: next time you feel the urge to colonize a distant land, don't.

Right?!?

Hah, as for Portuguese: a few years ago, I was chatting with a Portuguese girl about continental vs Brazilian Portuguese — like the British, the Portuguese also get rather... protective of their namesake language. So of course I had to poke the hornet’s nest and ask: “Ummm, well, didn’t your latest spelling reform adopt a ton of Brazilian spellings?”, to which she replied with mock indignance, “WE DON’T TALK ABOUT THAT!!!!”