Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering

[Brumby]

The one thing I do believe is that defining equality by statistics is folly in the extreme.  Forcing numbers only causes deeper problems.  Putting anyone into a position that they could not have attained through their own abilities, purely because of "equality by statistics" is not only a false action, it is a delusional one.  Not only that, but it causes resentment among those who did get there through ability.

This also causes such persons' shortcomings - which will be noticed - to become a problem and actually feed the argument against the moves for "equality".  It is entirely counter-productive.

[Brumby]

"SheStarts is powered by Australia's leaders in diversity & innovation"

Diversity for women only.

That's a misquote if I ever saw one.

I haven't checked out the SheStarts program - but by the title, I would presume it's an opportunity to encourage STARTING down that path.

I expect it allows females to explore these areas without having to deal with put-downs from, say, a mysoginst.

I expect this will allow them to then develop and compete with everyone - even the mysoginsts.

[MarkS]

Because "equality", at least in the U.S., isn't about equal rights for all, a noble goal. It is about making everyone "equal". We are all different, and therefore, diverse. However, those differences are being singled out, one by one, as something to be eradicated and are being demonized and vilified at every turn. It is "sexist" and "bigoted" and "wrong" that more women are not interested in certain fields. It cannot be an internal desire; it MUST be an external force. So the finger pointing and demonizing and fear mongering begins.

But there IS an external force.  If you actually take the time to listen, any number of women could tell you about any number of times they've been discouraged--sometimes subtly, sometimes overtly--from pursuing STEM education.  Sometimes it's peers, sometimes it's teachers.  I've heard it directly from a number of women I know.  The same goes for people of racial minorities.  It doesn't matter if certain cohorts on the whole are less interested in STEM, the fact of the matter is that there are women and minorities who ARE interested and ARE discouraged.  As far as race, there are whole schools full of children who could have the interest and the drive to get into STEM and succeed, but they're never exposed to the curriculum or given the support that their peers in more affluent (which in the US, means more white) schools are. 

So until there is demonstrably equal opportunity and equally available support and encouragement across the board, the whole "but maybe X people are just less interested" argument is a big fucking red herring.  This is basic science: you can't isolate one variable unless you can control all of the others.  You can't isolate interest without normalizing encouragement, instruction, funding, and culture.

I am well aware of this and it does need to stop. What I'm suggesting is that it is not as prevalent as people assume. If you listen to those spouting "equality", you quickly get the thought that this is the primary factor. That is false. I have seen girls grow up in households where they were told they can grow up to be anything they want and they still want to wear dresses, play with dolls and dream of being a wife and mother. This isn't forced on them. They desire it on their own accord. There are inherent differences between male and female, but instead of cherishing these differences, we have begun to demonize them. If a girl dreams of being an engineer, do EVERYTHING to help her realize that dream! If she dreams of being a homemaker, do EVERYTHING to help her realize that dream!

In the end, don't assume that female participation in engineering programs are 100% due to extretnal factors. Accept the fact that they just might not want to be an engineer.

[Circlotron]

In the current social climate would the SJW crowd be satisfied if 50% of male engineers decided to identify as women?

[LabSpokane]

Mansplained, by a white, male.   

Please, for the love of God, tell me you're joking!

No.  Wouldn't one think to ask women *why* they choose nursing over engineering and base one's conclusions at least partly upon a response from the demographic?  Wouldn't *that* be smart?

Strangely enough, psychologists have indeed done surveys to determine personality traits and tendencies amongst populations.

Jordan Peterson has released quite a wealth of knowledge onto the internet for those who are curious. Of particular interest is the idea of distilling essential psychological traits from large volumes of survey data and analysing the co-variance of answers to see if they measure a singular trait. Cultural, socio-economic, sex influences etc can all be factored for. As difficult as it is to ascertain comprehensive truths in a softer science like psychology, people like Dr Peterson are making an honest effort to apply the scientific method.

Or, we could entertain the "alternative science" that he's just a big meany mansplainer.

The only thing I saw resembling statistics there was his 20:1 ratio.

Statistics reveal the what, but not necessarily the why. The why is what matters. Why are women avoiding STEM in far higher proportions that what most reasonable people would think that women could enter the field and be successful? For that, one actually needs to talk with women and listen to the answers.

I'm fairly certain that society is worse off with this extreme representational bias in STEM. You can call it "disinterest," but I'm betting you'd hear the word "discouraged" if you actually asked and listened.

[John B]

The only thing I saw resembling statistics there was his 20:1 ratio.

Statistics reveal the what, but not necessarily the why. The why is what matters. Why are women avoiding STEM in far higher proportions that what most reasonable people would think that women could enter the field and be successful? For that, one actually needs to talk with women and listen to the answers.

I'm fairly certain that society is worse off with this extreme representational bias in STEM. You can call it "disinterest," but I'm betting you'd hear the word "discouraged" if you actually asked and listened.

In response to your mysteriously disappeared reply, you will have to watch more than 3 mins of video to find the answers to what you're asking. Luckily Dr Peterson has posted lectures on exactly these topics on his youtube channel. I've done the legwork. Yes, you'll have to listen to quite a few hours if you are genuine in getting a good feel for the topic, but that's always required if you want to achieve the rank of Mansplainer.

[tautech]

Mansplained, by a white, male.   

Please, for the love of God, tell me you're joking!

No.  Wouldn't one think to ask women *why* they choose nursing over engineering and base one's conclusions at least partly upon a response from the demographic?  Wouldn't *that* be smart?

Strangely enough, psychologists have indeed done surveys to determine personality traits and tendencies amongst populations.

Jordan Peterson has released quite a wealth of knowledge onto the internet for those who are curious. Of particular interest is the idea of distilling essential psychological traits from large volumes of survey data and analysing the co-variance of answers to see if they measure a singular trait. Cultural, socio-economic, sex influences etc can all be factored for. As difficult as it is to ascertain comprehensive truths in a softer science like psychology, people like Dr Peterson are making an honest effort to apply the scientific method.

Or, we could entertain the "alternative science" that he's just a big meany mansplainer.

The only thing I saw resembling statistics there was his 20:1 ratio.

Statistics reveal the what, but not necessarily the why. The why is what matters. Why are women avoiding STEM in far higher proportions that what most reasonable people would think that women could enter the field and be successful? For that, one actually needs to talk with women and listen to the answers.

I'm fairly certain that society is worse off with this extreme representational bias in STEM. You can call it "disinterest," but I'm betting you'd hear the word "discouraged" if you actually asked and listened.

IMHO it's both.
Engineering is hard for most and women have different goals and dreams (ie. motherhood) and this is not lost on those pushing them into/through career paths. It's only when they demonstrate they are indeed committed to a professional goal that they are taken seriously by most but not all. Unfortunately there are still some that think that investment in the fairer sex can be better directed into menfolk. My daughter encountered this in her chosen career of aviation and to her credit she recognised it early and tried all the harder to effectively poke a finger in the eye of her doubters.
Captain today and regional pilot manager. I think she showed them but not all like her have the backbone and the support to get this far. 

It is indeed sad that there are not more women in engineering fields, it is rare that I ever come across any and this is also represented in forum statistics.

[DimitriP]

Untill Mattel releases "Barbie's workshop" or "Barbie's science Lab" collection, nothing will change.

[EEVblog]

"SheStarts is powered by Australia's leaders in diversity & innovation"

Diversity for women only.

That's a misquote if I ever saw one.
I haven't checked out the SheStarts program - but by the title, I would presume it's an opportunity to encourage STARTING down that path.

No, they get cash prizes and cash investment for equity etc
That means investment money that could have gone to anyone worthy, not just females.
(Not that I'm implying it's bad, just a fact)

What do you get as part of the program?
In exchange for 15% equity each founder accepted into the program will each receive:
$AUD100,000 provided by BlueChilli and associated entities to be invested into your incorporated startup. The funds are distributed as a $50,000 cash prize plus a $50,000 investment, and are to be spent, at your discretion, on activities required to build/grow the business.
Full placement in BlueChilli’s six-month 156 accelerator program, including access to Business Advisory services with BlueChilli’s expert in-house team of EIRS, external mentors and a structured program designed to give your idea the best chance of business success and to provide a clear and defined risk profile for future investors.
Strategic support, insights and advice from the SheStarts program partners and collaborators
Access to discounted software product development services from BlueChilli’s team of expert startup software product managers, engineers and designers.
Promotion and exposure via the SheStarts documentary web series, social media and other channels as facilitated by BlueChilli and SheStarts program sponsors
A return economy flight from Sydney to San Francisco to take part in the SheStarts Silicon Valley Immersion program. Flights will be booked by BlueChilli and details of the flights will be at BlueChilli’s discretion in consultation with the finalists.

[EEVblog]

Untill Mattel releases "Barbie's workshop" or "Barbie's science Lab" collection, nothing will change.

Close:
https://www.goldieblox.com/

[EEVblog]

It is indeed sad that there are not more women in engineering fields, it is rare that I ever come across any and this is also represented in forum statistics.

A female tech hired me for my first job.

And here is the interesting thing. Go and ask any engineering channel what their gender stats are and they will all say it's only a few percent female.
Why?
Youtube is the ultimate gateway to free tech information that is available equally to everyone, everywhere, of every gender without any pressure at all from anyone on what you watch or why.
Yet with countless programs encouraging girls to get into engineering over the last decades, many role models etc, it's still only a small percentage. Why...

[tautech]

It is indeed sad that there are not more women in engineering fields, it is rare that I ever come across any and this is also represented in forum statistics.

A female tech hired me for my first job.

And here is the interesting thing. Go and ask any engineering channel what their gender stats are and they will all say it's only a few percent female.
Why?
Youtube is the ultimate gateway to free tech information that is available equally to everyone, everywhere, of every gender without any pressure at all from anyone on what you watch or why.
Yet with countless programs encouraging girls to get into engineering over the last decades, many role models etc, it's still only a small percentage. Why...

It did partially cover why but there's another point I don't think's been mentioned.

Educational careers advice.
As parents we took careful notice of what our 3 were being pushed toward in their later years of schooling and IMHO all these so called professionals could offer was BS. 
In our case, in their formative years we'd get them to take on part time holiday jobs, any job, just to look into the big wide world that awaited them.  We never had much spare cash to spoil our kids and they relished in some small opportunities to get some of their own....even though they hated the mundane tasks that school kids could only get. What they learnt was invaluable for their futures........they learnt just what jobs they didn't ever want to do. 

This in some way focussed them into their studies and also careful thought of the career that they might pursue.
All along mum and dad pushed maths as the most valuable toolbox they could ever acquire, especially as neither of us had excelled but in later life saw just how extremely valuable maths is. More than all other subjects IMHO.

Early in this thread a member mentioned that girls need be brought up to know they can do anything...they most certainly can but in some career paths it's harder for them to succeed, the tables are stacked against them and a good amount of content here supports this as what many of us already know.
The way forward is to support our next female generations, not by some BS agency but the backing of parents and those all around them. Succeed they might if they try hard enough and they must prove they can by their results and commitment to their studies. They have to do it, not us, them !
Go girls. 

[razberik]

At the second largest university in CZ - biology, chemistry and medicine has more female students than males. And there are no encouragement campaigns. How it is possible ?

[sokoloff]

Can you spot any differences in the picture below?
It's subtle; you might have to look closely.

[Brumby]

Even with all the best intentions, education of mentors and support, there is still the problem of personal influences that will operate at levels that are below detection.

One example I recall is when I was in the senior years of High School, there were two people in my year that went for the highest level course in Science - Level 1 (now called 4 unit).  Here, you chose the particular branch to study and you got the Science Master as your teacher.  One chose Biology - and the Master was seen to sit down with them and help cut out pieces of celluloid to make up a model of DNA.  The other chose Physics.  They were given the Physics syllabus, pointed to the equipment cabinet ... and left to their own devices.

While this example may be a bit uncommon, this sort of bias is going to be something which is going to be next to impossible to eradicate.

Whether a student can rise to the challenge or simply capitulate is the key - and, I believe, the thing to do is to try and create an environment where they are less intimidated.


I did have fun with all the neat gear, though.

[RoGeorge]

In the current social climate would the SJW crowd be satisfied if 50% of male engineers decided to identify as women?

Probably yes:



 

[EEVblog]

Early in this thread a member mentioned that girls need be brought up to know they can do anything...

That can apply equally well to anyone, not just girls.
I grew up in a poor working class part of Sydney at a time when no one I knew (apart from the teachers I guess) went to university or aspired to any form of high level education or profession. I'm not exaggerating, I literally didn't know a single person. Zero encouragement from anyone in any aspect of my life.
School? Huh, high school was simply a matter of survival.
The reason you went on to the HSC was so you could get a better job at McDonald's. If you had a job, any job that paid the bills, you were successful.

Parents encouraged my electronics hobby basically by leaving me be, but it was me alone who had to have the drive to get into the industry.
Entirely different world these days with the internet.

[Marco]

His essay seemed to be driven by the agenda of dean of Purdue’s school, Dr. Donna Riley.

Heh, I thought it was just overreaction but this is pretty bad.

Trying to reprogram male engineers to be less sexist, regardless how bad it is, is not the task of an engineering school. You can offer a small amounts of humanities, but in the end that's not what anyone is there for. White/Asian men or other minorities/women.

Alumni should let them know this is undesirable ... everyone else just tell people to not send their kids there.

[sokoloff]

Trying to reprogram male engineers to be less sexist, regardless how bad it is, is not the task of an engineering school. You can offer a small amounts of humanities, but in the end that's not what anyone is there for.

I know right?

All that money wasted on the university lunch plan when beans, rice, and cheese would be a perfectly sustaining source of calories. All the money wasted on bringing in guest lecturers when YouTube, EdX, and Udemy are available. All that money wasted on the college health department when the city has a perfectly functional emergency room. /s

To be clear: I believe that university education should be multi-dimensional. Of course an engineering school should rigorously teach engineering, but writing, economics, history, and the social aspects of college should all be an integral and essential part of higher education, IMO.

I say this having gone to MIT in the US. I bitched and moaned about having to take "dumb humanities" classes at the time. Now that I'm out, I believe that more of my success and "not being an A-hole" [to whatever extent that I am not ] is due to the non-engineering curriculum and experiences than the direct engineering work. The latter qualified me and gave me the raw materials to succeed; the former amplified that success greatly as well as makes it more enjoyable to reflect on my condition in life, mostly good and some bad.

[madires]

Why can't people simply accept that only a few women are interested in engineering? It's neither a problem, nor does it need to be fixed.

[CJay]

(I can tell this anecdotally, when there were only one or two women in my high school physics class comprised almost entirely of males. Similarly for chemistry and mathematics. I don't think this was statistically representative of the abilities across the student intake.)

Ability shouldn't be the driver, interest should be the driver.
You can build and learn ability, but it's much harder to build and instill interest in something to someone who doesn't have interest in that area.

Exactly my experience of training University students in industry, it was very quickly obvious which ones had chosen the degree course because they were interested and which ones had chosen it because it looked like a good career, it's a fact of life that the best people in a job are the ones who can combine a passion for the work and ability, that's not always defined by level of salary either because those who have the passion are often 'stuck' at a level that makes them happy.

I've met excellent engineers of all genders, I think the main reason for the disparity is the responsibility of a society where parents push gender roles on their children, subconsciously or consciously.

[coppice]

So until there is demonstrably equal opportunity and equally available support and encouragement across the board, the whole "but maybe X people are just less interested" argument is a big fucking red herring.  This is basic science: you can't isolate one variable unless you can control all of the others.  You can't isolate interest without normalizing encouragement, instruction, funding, and culture.

Listen to Jorden Peterson above (who BTW, has spent his career researching such things) and follow the Nordic case studies.
Apparently they have tried to level the playing field in almost every respect, and did isolate the variable, bringing it back to inherent interest differences in men and women, and the result was that there was still that large split.
I did go look into the references for this once but didn't get far, but I'm sure it's out there for those interested.

You need to be really careful looking at research like that. If it were a fairly solid analysis of human behaviour you would expect a similar percentage of female engineers across the world. In practice you don't. In some Eastern European countries there appear to be a fairly large number of female engineers (I say appear as I have no first hand experience). You find a lot more female engineers in India than in Western Europe or the US, and a lot of the female engineers I encounter in the US are ethically Indian.

Boys are bathed in male stuff and girls are bathed in female stuff from their day of birth. By the time you can start to study their preferences you are way beyond being able to separate nature from nurture. All we know is that by the time they grow up, in societies where people are not strongly coerced into a certain set of roles, girls will tend to chose different roles from boys.

An important point people ignore, by looking too narrowly, is that in while in most engineering and physics related topics there are few women, women dominate in biology (although not as strongly as men dominate in engineering. Its more like a 2:1 ratio). If you look at the gender mix across all science and engineering roles the balance is far less skewed than just looking at engineering. WE NEED MORE BOYS STUDYING BIOLOGY, or not, as the case may be. 

[coppice]

(I can tell this anecdotally, when there were only one or two women in my high school physics class comprised almost entirely of males. Similarly for chemistry and mathematics. I don't think this was statistically representative of the abilities across the student intake.)

Ability shouldn't be the driver, interest should be the driver.
You can build and learn ability, but it's much harder to build and instill interest in something to someone who doesn't have interest in that area.

Saying one or the other should be a driver makes no sense. Without ability, interest is useless. Without interest, you just won't persist. People need a balance to be effective.

Excellence comes from obsession, and obsession comes from interest, but the most obsessed person gets nowhere without ability.

[alank2]

Apparently they have tried to level the playing field in almost every respect, and did isolate the variable, bringing it back to inherent interest differences in men and women, and the result was that there was still that large split.

Apparently, it would seem, that their assertion that men and women are exactly the same would be false...  Who knew.

In the current social climate would the SJW crowd be satisfied if 50% of male engineers decided to identify as women?

They probably would be, except that they are never satisfied.

Trying to reprogram male engineers to be less sexist, regardless how bad it is, is not the task of an engineering school. You can offer a small amounts of humanities, but in the end that's not what anyone is there for. White/Asian men or other minorities/women.

I agree, but now, we can't have men just going about mainsplainin' needlessly.  Remember, men bad men bad.  In fact, we need to make sure and teach that every masculine trait is labeled bad so that men will act like and operate just as if they were women.  Who is oppressing who now?  I guess it is all ok so long as the right people are being oppressed.

Why can't people simply accept that only a few women are interested in engineering? It's neither a problem, nor does it need to be fixed.

It goes against their untouchable core idea that men and women are exactly the same.  And they will fight it with lies, deception, skewed statistics, and of course social change.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering

I'm not worried. I doubt they will succeed.

Another area with female under representation is the trades. Especially electrical and plumbing.
Probably carpenters and mechanics too but I haven't heard figures on these.
Not as many complaints about this AFAICT.

Plenty of female law students though. I don't know why they would choose Law over Engineering. Maybe someone should ask them.