Privately owned express roads in the US concept

[NottheDan]

I whole heatedly agree with you, but this is why I think a private road would be necessary. A company can come in an produce a quality road, control licensing and registration on the roads, and have them up to spec with Germany's road network. This could even improve traffic in other parts of the US, since there would be incentive to train and become a better driver, while now people just take a few tests and get through.

Then some executive comes up with the idea how best to earn shareholder approval and a bigger bonus and maintenance will be cut down to the bare minimum, qualified engineers will be replaced by half-trained monkeys, the market will be cornered minimising access to rival routes and the toll will be increased.

[Halcyon]

My experience in Sydney is those who commute daily to and from work in their private vehicles avoid the privately operated toll roads as much as possible mainly due to the cost. For example: If you were to take the roughly 20 kilometre journey along the M7 motorway in Sydney, entering from the M4 and exiting to the M2, it would cost AUD$7.76 each way. That's over $77 per week in tolls just to get to and from work.

To add to the problem, journeys to/from your primary place of employment are not tax deductible as a work related travel expense.

The other issue is, road projects aren't keeping up with demand. In a place like Sydney with a population of over 5 million people, we are only just now getting motorways of 3 and 4 lanes (which still isn't enough). Even when they Sydney Harbour Bridge opened in 1932, it had 4 lanes of traffic (later expanded to the current-day 8 lanes). Even new roads are being designed with little forethought and future-proofing in mind.

Traffic in and around Sydney is essentially at a standstill during peak periods, which these days start as early as 0530H in the morning and again at 1500-1530H in the afternoon.

[tszaboo]

I was travelling across germany last week. A total of 700 KM, Autobahn. We went sometimes 150-160 kph, but the average speed was only some 90. There were constant constructions, traffic was in the way (peugeot drivers at 120 overtaking trucks overtaking trucks). You rarely have more than 3 lanes, not 6-7 like US road network.

And most the cars are actually made to be able to drive that fast. An average american would drive their stupid muscle car there, only to end up in the ditch the first corner. Also, I think we had a dozen cars going 200-ish by us.
No, I dont think unlimited speed would work there, nor in China nor Belgium. In the US, on a private road, you would need to pay unlimited money for liability insurance. Build trains.

[janoc]

What does it matter where and for how long s/he's driven? It's not subjective opinion that Germany has tough requirements for drivers, and that its highway fatality rate is very low. Those are simple facts.

As for me, I earned my chops driving in USA in one of the areas with the worst traffic. And I've driven in Germany. German driver discipline is just dreamy. It's not the free-for-all that it is in USA.

It does matter when the person extolls the supposed virtues of unlimited speed on German Autobahn - and have obviously not been there. It is not about driver discipline.

While there isn't an universal speed limit, many stretches of the motorways are limited to 120kph or less by traffic signs, both permanent and variable. Especially in the East-West direction it is almost impossible to find a stretch without a posted limit, sometimes down to 80 (or even less) because of the frequent construction sites, poor shape of the road surface, noise abatement through/near cities, etc.

And I am not even speaking about the volumes of traffic that make it often difficult to maintain even 100kph during the day - most of the network is only two lanes in each direction, with the right lane permanently clogged by endless lines of trucks going bumper to bumper.

Compared to that I have found the Austrian and French motorways much easier and comfortable to drive on, even though they are paid and have 130 speed limit (and plentiful radars!).

The lack of speed limit is really a red herring of a little practical advantage when driving in Germany today. Go 200 and I will catch up with you going my 120-130 few kilometers down the road at the next construction site or traffic jam. But your high speed has a much higher chance of provoking an accident because a lot of people don't expect a car show up in their mirror that fast (or don't look in it in the first place!). There is nothing more "fun" than having a truck pull out in front of you in your lane - I have seen several "racers" that had to go 200+ end up buried under the truck in front of them thanks to this.

[cdev]

There is a good book I found a chapter in online about public private partnerships that talks a bit about non-compete agreements..

Public Sector Decision Making for Public-private Partnerships
By Jeffrey N. Buxbaum, Iris N. Ortiz

A lot of the time privatization turns out to have been a big mistake.

[cdev]

Janoc,

the situation you describe is likely an ideal one for a GPS application that people could use to optimize their travel time.

Do you have radio traffic info broadcasts there on FM channel subcarriers? I'm pretty sure you do and unlike in the US its free. It would be simple to use a GPS to evaluate the traffic for a driver in real time and let them know when driving fast makes sense because the road is fairly open ahead and when it doesn't.

[janoc]

And most the cars are actually made to be able to drive that fast. An average american would drive their stupid muscle car there, only to end up in the ditch the first corner. Also, I think we had a dozen cars going 200-ish by us.

The cars could certainly go faster, the bigger Audis, VWs or BMWs certainly have no problems with driving 200+ safely. But most people don't drive them like that because it is both dangerous and not economical - considering the prices of gas in Europe (and especially around motorways!) vs price of gas in the US, few could afford to run one of the American gas guzzlers here.

$2.4/gallon - that's about $0.63/l Normal gas prices are around 1.60EUR/l ~ $1.8/l on the motorway pumps - 3x higher.

[janoc]

Janoc,

the situation you describe is likely an ideal one for a GPS application that people could use to optimize their travel time.

Do you have radio traffic info broadcasts there on FM channel subcarriers? I'm pretty sure you do and unlike in the US its free. It would be simple to use a GPS to evaluate the traffic for a driver in real time and let them know when driving fast makes sense because the road is fairly open ahead and when it doesn't.

LOL. I have actually both the radio and my TomTom satnav with real time traffic info. What I was describing is actually the fastest route the satnav gave me already. I am making a long trip France-Slovak republic and back every summer, so I get a good taste of German motorway driving because I am crossing it in the East-West direction (around 3000km total for the trip).

The network really is that congested in Germany. Just look at the traffic info on Google maps during day hours in Germany, you will see.

[Halcyon]

The lack of speed limit is really a red herring of a little practical advantage when driving in Germany today. Go 200 and I will catch up with you going my 120-130 few kilometers down the road at the next construction site or traffic jam. But your high speed has a much higher chance of provoking an accident because a lot of people don't expect a car show up in their mirror that fast (or don't look in it in the first place!). There is nothing more "fun" than having a truck pull out in front of you in your lane - I have seen several "racers" that had to go 200+ end up buried under the truck in front of them thanks to this.

100% agree, however in Australia, there are places where this works.

In the Northern Territory, there is something like 1000+ kilometers of road in the middle of nowhere with open speed limits and it works just fine. They've found that most people drive to the conditions and sit under 140km/hr, otherwise Australia has a national speed limit of 110km/hr. A few years ago, they actually trialed speed limits on a stretch of road out there and road accidents actually increased in numbers, however they were due to alcohol/drugs and fatigue, not speed. For those who haven't driven in Australia,  a lot of our motorways have very long stretches of roads at 110km/hr. The 190km drive from Sydney to Goulburn or 280km from Sydney to Canberra is boring as bat shit and is enough to send anyone to sleep at that speed.

[janoc]

100% agree, however in Australia, there are places where this works.

In the Northern Territory, there is something like 1000+ kilometers of road in the middle of nowhere with open speed limits and it works just fine. They've found that most people drive to the conditions and sit under 140km/hr, otherwise Australia has a national speed limit of 110km/hr. A few years ago, they actually trialed speed limits on a stretch of road out there and road accidents actually increased in numbers, however they were due to alcohol/drugs and fatigue, not speed. For those who haven't driven in Australia,  a lot of our motorways have very long stretches of roads at 110km/hr. The 190km drive from Sydney to Goulburn or 280km from Sydney to Canberra is boring as bat shit and is enough to send anyone to sleep at that speed.

Right, but that is not really comparable. Hundreds of kilometers over sparsely populated areas with not a lot of traffic - by all means. But it wouldn't work in Europe - your 280km could be crossing several countries with fairly different laws here already and areas with a few millions of people living there.

[Rick Law]

Janoc,

the situation you describe is likely an ideal one for a GPS application that people could use to optimize their travel time.

Do you have radio traffic info broadcasts there on FM channel subcarriers? I'm pretty sure you do and unlike in the US its free. It would be simple to use a GPS to evaluate the traffic for a driver in real time and let them know when driving fast makes sense because the road is fairly open ahead and when it doesn't.

LOL. I have actually both the radio and my TomTom satnav with real time traffic info. What I was describing is actually the fastest route the satnav gave me already. I am making a long trip France-Slovak republic and back every summer, so I get a good taste of German motorway driving because I am crossing it in the East-West direction (around 3000km total for the trip).

The network really is that congested in Germany. Just look at the traffic info on Google maps during day hours in Germany, you will see.

Well, safe journey...  I hope your TomTom guided 3000km trip will be without unpleasant suprises.

And make sure you obey the speed limit as long as your TomTom is on, since it will spill the beans on you!

Article: Tom Tom sold driver's GPS details to be used by police for speed traps
_{http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/8480702/Tom-Tom-sold-drivers-GPS-details-to-be-used-by-police-for-speed-traps.html}

[tszaboo]

And most the cars are actually made to be able to drive that fast. An average american would drive their stupid muscle car there, only to end up in the ditch the first corner. Also, I think we had a dozen cars going 200-ish by us.

The cars could certainly go faster, the bigger Audis, VWs or BMWs certainly have no problems with driving 200+ safely. But most people don't drive them like that because it is both dangerous and not economical - considering the prices of gas in Europe (and especially around motorways!) vs price of gas in the US, few could afford to run one of the American gas guzzlers here.

$2.4/gallon - that's about $0.63/l Normal gas prices are around 1.60EUR/l ~ $1.8/l on the motorway pumps - 3x higher.

Should have wrote: Only like a dozen cars.

Anyway, my trip of 700 km (one direction) was an exception. I fly whenever I can, it is more environment friendly, and safer, faster. A typical Airbus A320 has 2.2L/100km/seat fuel economy.

[Cerebus]

Pre Jimmy Carter days, many States doesn't even impose a speed limit.  Drivers are trusted to not drive faster than what they feel comfortable with.  55mph nation-wide during the Carter era or loose federal highway money

Stating it as the "Jimmy Carter days" suggests a political motive that is unsupported. It doesn't really matter whose administration it was, as it was an attempt to reduce oil consumption in a time when supplies were heavily limited by the 1973 OPEC embargo - when OPEC raised the price of crude 70% and cut output 25% overnight .

The worldwide oil shortage was so severe that in the UK petrol rationing vouchers were issued. They were never used. A blanket speed limit of 70mph was introduced and that, and other measures, were just sufficient to reduce fuel demand enough that rationing was not actually introduced.

[Koen]

janoc and NANDBLOG messages are the reason I asked if OP had driven in Germany. I live next to an american airbase and on arrival, lads hope they'll be able to hit the magical and wonderful world of unrestricted speed in a Mustang. So they plan a trip and reality quickly becomes disappointing. Drive two minutes at 180, then 120-80-60 because bridge, 180 then two minutes later 120-80-60 because roadworks, 180 then two minutes later 120-80 because city exits then yipee yee, 180 again to be stuck minutes later behind a column of SUV going 140.

I drive from Belgium to Austria and Belgium to Poland often and there's only a 50km stretch somewhere in the center, surrounded by forests, where limits don't change every few kilometers and density is low enough to enjoy it.

Ultimately, I don't wish for it. If anything, I'd hope Belgium took lessons from the UK and started renovating the signage, adding roundabouts (and legal provisions for multi-lanes round-abouts), cat's eyes (especially now that we don't illuminate the highways anymore...) and everything making the roads clearer and safer. Ho and subsidising new drivers formation instead of the useless "don't drive drunk/drugged/tired, think about your kids, buckle your seatbelt" media campaigns.

[Someone]

I drive from Belgium to Austria and Belgium to Poland often and there's only a 50km stretch somewhere in the center, surrounded by forests, where limits don't change every few kilometers and density is low enough to enjoy it.

Generally "good" driving roads are either picturesque:
http://www.hostelworld.com/blog/5-epic-roads-to-drive-before-you-die/
Or ridiculously technical requiring driving skill but sadly in Australia each time people find a road thats fun to drive at the speed limit the authorities come in and reduce the speed limit further.

[Rick Law]

Pre Jimmy Carter days, many States doesn't even impose a speed limit.  Drivers are trusted to not drive faster than what they feel comfortable with.  55mph nation-wide during the Carter era or loose federal highway money

Stating it as the "Jimmy Carter days" suggests a political motive that is unsupported. It doesn't really matter whose administration it was...
...

It was his idea and by his executive order that it was done, so he was very closely attached to the brief duration when the nation was limited to 55mph.  Yes it was very unpopular.  However, I did not use that term to signal any thing political, pros or cons.  So, you could be reading too much into that "Jimmy Carter days" reference this time around.

At least around my area and my circle, it is rather common to use president's name as a quick way to identify a period.  In just saying "Reagan Era", that described a time frame, a set of national conditions, and the national mood of the time.  More often than not, that is used apolitically.

[tooki]

Have you driven in Germany ? On long highway stretches ?

What does it matter where and for how long s/he's driven? It's not subjective opinion that Germany has tough requirements for drivers, and that its highway fatality rate is very low. Those are simple facts.

As for me, I earned my chops driving in USA in one of the areas with the worst traffic. And I've driven in Germany. German driver discipline is just dreamy. It's not the free-for-all that it is in USA.

Wait what ? I asked if he drove in Germany. Why make up a new question while quoting mine just above. There's a good reason I'm asking this question.

I didn't make up any new questions. If I'd wanted to obfuscate your question, would I have quoted it? Sheesh...

Ok, so what is your "good reason" for asking? You haven't answered that, and I still dispute that it matters, since the statement you are questioning is simple fact. You're questioning the credibility of the speaker, which is a classic attempt to distract from an inconvenient truth. Why?

What does it matter where and for how long s/he's driven? It's not subjective opinion that Germany has tough requirements for drivers, and that its highway fatality rate is very low. Those are simple facts.

As for me, I earned my chops driving in USA in one of the areas with the worst traffic. And I've driven in Germany. German driver discipline is just dreamy. It's not the free-for-all that it is in USA.

It does matter when the person extolls the supposed virtues of unlimited speed on German Autobahn - and have obviously not been there. It is not about driver discipline.

While there isn't an universal speed limit, many stretches of the motorways are limited to 120kph or less by traffic signs, both permanent and variable. Especially in the East-West direction it is almost impossible to find a stretch without a posted limit, sometimes down to 80 (or even less) because of the frequent construction sites, poor shape of the road surface, noise abatement through/near cities, etc.

And I am not even speaking about the volumes of traffic that make it often difficult to maintain even 100kph during the day - most of the network is only two lanes in each direction, with the right lane permanently clogged by endless lines of trucks going bumper to bumper.

Compared to that I have found the Austrian and French motorways much easier and comfortable to drive on, even though they are paid and have 130 speed limit (and plentiful radars!).

The lack of speed limit is really a red herring of a little practical advantage when driving in Germany today. Go 200 and I will catch up with you going my 120-130 few kilometers down the road at the next construction site or traffic jam. But your high speed has a much higher chance of provoking an accident because a lot of people don't expect a car show up in their mirror that fast (or don't look in it in the first place!). There is nothing more "fun" than having a truck pull out in front of you in your lane - I have seen several "racers" that had to go 200+ end up buried under the truck in front of them thanks to this.

Ummm... no, whether the person making the statement has driven in Germany is not relevant to facts. Facts exist independently of the speaker. Fact is, the highway fatality rate in Germany is substantially lower than in most countries. This is a fact regardless of who is saying it.

Driver discipline is absolutely relevant: it is the primary reason for Germany's low highway fatality rate. Lack of driver discipline is why the US has a much higher highway fatality rate.

If you think Germany's road surfaces are bad, go to Pennsylvania or Ohio.

[Halcyon]

Or ridiculously technical requiring driving skill but sadly in Australia each time people find a road thats fun to drive at the speed limit the authorities come in and reduce the speed limit further.

Half the problem is the authorities have to cater for the lowest common denominator. Mister Man on his provisional licence goes and kills himself because he is uneducated, unskilled, takes risks, drives drunk or drives a shit box of a car (or any combination thereof); their solution is to throw up a fixed speed camera (which does next to nothing but force people to drive at or below the limit for approximately 50 metres), rather than address the real problem of what actually caused the crash in the first place. Why kids aren't taught basic driver education at high school is beyond me.

Also, we need tougher penalties for driving on your phone, driving with alcohol and/or drugs in your system, those who choose to drive unlicenced etc.... To be honest, 14 demerit points in NSW is too much in my opinion, why are we giving people 5, 6... 10 chances?. Want to talk on your phone and drive a car? Get caught once, a fine and one strike. Second offence, you cop a fine and your phone gets seized by Police for 48 hours. Third offence, your licence gets cancelled and you need to start over on your learners permit.

Ignorance and stupidity aren't excuses. The roads should be reserved for those who have earned a licence and have demonstrated that they can drive skillfully, defensively and safely. It might even help ease Sydney's traffic congestion.

I work in an organisation where as an employee, we are expected to know each policy that applies to us. Not word for word, but essentially know and understand "the rules". Not knowing is not an excuse and you will be reprimanded if you breach any. We aren't spoon-fed them in some lengthy, death-by-Powerpoint induction day, we're shown where to access them and as adults we go and read them and take the time to understand them in our own time. Being expected to know the road rules should be no different.

[Koen]

tooki, you are strange.

[tooki]

tooki, you are strange.

If calling people on their bullshit is strange, then I proudly wear that badge.

You still didn't answer my question, by the way, leading me to assume you don't have a valid argument.

[Koen]

So you can't ask someone praising Germany's network if he ever drove on it ? Anyway, you should read before writing, the post above starts with "janoc and NANDBLOG messages are the reason I asked if OP had driven in Germany. [...]"

[tooki]

So you can't ask someone praising Germany's network if he ever drove on it ? Anyway, you should read before writing, the post above starts with "janoc and NANDBLOG messages are the reason I asked if OP had driven in Germany. [...]"

I didn't say you couldn't. I asked what difference it makes. Because facts are not dependent on who is stating them.

[Koen]

That's an excellent question : "What difference is there between reading about something foreign and actually experiencing it ?". You have four hours. 2cm margins. Times New Roman 11. Good luck to you all.

[tooki]

So you can't ask someone praising Germany's network if he ever drove on it ? Anyway, you should read before writing, the post above starts with "janoc and NANDBLOG messages are the reason I asked if OP had driven in Germany. [...]"

Also, you asked before janoc and nandblog had replied. So they couldn't have been why you asked.

[tooki]

That's an excellent question : "What difference is there between reading about something foreign and actually experiencing it ?". You have four hours. 2cm margins. Times New Roman 11. Good luck to you all.

Germany's highway fatality rate is lower than USA's. Whether you have experienced either is 100% irrelevant to the truth of that statement. How do you not understand this??