Possible to trigger at battery explosions in pagers ?

[globoy]

The NYT (also probably paywalled) is reporting they were Gold Apollo AP924 (among other) pagers and Israel added explosives and a trigger next to the battery.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/17/world/middleeast/israel-hezbollah-pagers-explosives.html

For me anyway, the Gold Apollo website is unresponsive but I think it looks something like the following image.

[coppercone2]

I think its safe to say that you can't pin this one on a lithium ion battery, so there is no need to throw away you iphones

[shabaz]

Unfortunately this article is behind a paywall.

What usually works for FT, is to google the article title with 'ft twitter' appended to it, then click on the twitter/X result, and then it opens that FT page article without their paywall.

For instance, googling for that article, leads to this twitter URL: https://twitter.com/ftworldnews/status/1836109408788517296
and by clicking on the link in there, will open the article (at least it does for me).

[Bud]

So what does the Taiwanese manufacturer say?

[coppercone2]

So what does the Taiwanese manufacturer say?

there was a small defect in one of the subassemblies

realistically they have nothing to do with it. I doubt they just sold it to that group. It probobly went through a complex resale chain. They have nothing to do with it. I have a feeling everything that ends up there is super laundered.

[MT]

https://www.ft.com/content/dbaac693-2fd2-41bc-b5e7-6c2c7dd92277

Unfortunately this article is behind a paywall.

and its full of garbage narratives.

[Andy Chee]

So what does the Taiwanese manufacturer say?

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gold-apollo-says-it-did-not-make-pagers-used-lebanon-explosion-2024-09-18/

"The product was not ours. It was only that it had our brand on it,' Gold Apollo founder and president, Hsu Ching-Kuang, told reporters at the company's offices in the northern Taiwanese city of New Taipei on Wednesday.
The company said in a statement that the AR-924 model was produced and sold by BAC.
"We only provide brand trademark authorization and have no involvement in the design or manufacturing of this product," the statement said.

[Geoff-AU]

I think its safe to say that you can't pin this one on a lithium ion battery, so there is no need to throw away you iphones

I think if anyone suspects it could be caused by a lithium ion battery, that throwing away their phone is encouraged.  It might improve the signal to noise ratio for the rest of us.

[Andy Chee]

One might assume that this supply chain attack was performed somewhere towards the end of the chain, near the end users Hezbollah.

However if the attack was performed earlier in the supply chain, then conceivably there could be other explosive laden pagers circulating out in the wild, yet to be triggered because they were not within broadcast range.

It seems prudent that the manufacturer issue a recall notice for their pagers, at least until Israel/Mossad admits liability, and informs the manufacturer at which point in the supply chain was penetrated.

[bobxyz]

If I were going to do this, I'd intercept the wire(s) going to the display and add a micro that would detect a specific pager message and trigger an explosive.  The original battery could be replaced with half battery and half explosive + detonator + micro.  It wouldn't be selective, but if the original pagers were diverted, they could figure out the end phone numbers based on the pager IDs.

[Andy Chee]

I think its safe to say that you can't pin this one on a lithium ion battery, so there is no need to throw away you iphones

There has yet to be confirmation of explosive residue on the pager debris, so can't completely eliminate an intentional lithium battery explosion yet.

Can lithium battery casing be manufactured without safety venting?

[@rt]

this was in one of the early seasons of 24. in that plot line, they got a vice president or something with a phone dripping with a suspicious explosive liquid

it says its activated by a specific text. "simon says...."


its not a regular phone, the MOSSAD has been developing phone bombs for like... 60 years now, officially

One of those 50 cent microcontrollers with an accurate enough oscillator (borrowed from the existing clock on the PCB) could decode a message itself, and pull an IO pin high, which could perhaps use a transistor and the battery to provide a charge for something. I don't know what sort of voltage/current it takes to do something like that.

[ataradov]

Can lithium battery casing be manufactured without safety venting?

Batteries still don't explode with a lot of energy, they very quickly release the pressure and the most damage is caused by the fire.

Battery by itself may "explode" and cause some lacerations if held directly, but the device case would contain that well.

[jonpaul]

Atarov: Li batts are small firebombs and DO explode.

The events yesterday most likely used a small explosive charge and not relying on a possible Li battery fire.

j

[ataradov]

Atarov: Li batts are small firebombs and DO explode.

Do you have any video evidence of an actual explosion and not just venting and catching fire?

[coppercone2]

their more like setting off a rocket engine of similar size with quite a big thrust

[Halcyon]

Those explosions weren't caused (at least initially) by a Lithium battery. There was some kind of high explosive that either kicked off the reaction, or made up almost all of the resulting explosion. This was a quick and controlled explosion. There was little to no prior warning.

[Haenk]

In german news, there was a pretty detailed report on operations.
The pager in question (AR-924) were manufactured in Hungary (by company BAC) under the brand of a Taiwanese Company (Gold Apollo). They contained approximate 25-50grams of explosives.
It seems Israeli agents were able to intercept delivery from factory to Hizbollah and modify the pagers. This - of course - has not been officially confirmed.

[tom66]

In german news, there was a pretty detailed report on operations.
The pager in question (AR-924) were manufactured in Hungary (by company BAC) under the brand of a Taiwanese Company (Gold Apollo). They contained approximate 25-50grams of explosives.
It seems Israeli agents were able to intercept delivery from factory to Hizbollah and modify the pagers. This - of course - has not been officially confirmed.

A serious question is why is a factory in Europe manufacturing pagers for a proscribed terrorist organisation?
I suppose it could be a case of not knowing, but clearly the Israelis were aware.

[nctnico]

In german news, there was a pretty detailed report on operations.
The pager in question (AR-924) were manufactured in Hungary (by company BAC) under the brand of a Taiwanese Company (Gold Apollo). They contained approximate 25-50grams of explosives.
It seems Israeli agents were able to intercept delivery from factory to Hizbollah and modify the pagers. This - of course - has not been officially confirmed.

A serious question is why is a factory in Europe manufacturing pagers for a proscribed terrorist organisation?
I suppose it could be a case of not knowing, but clearly the Israelis were aware.

There are much more pressing things to worry about:
- The legality of such kind of 'warfare'. IMHO this is plain terrorism performed by the Isrealis; I highly doubt this is covered by any form of rules of engagement. It is likely going to backfire on them from all sides
- How many pagers are out there which didn't explode and how can these be tracked so they don't become death traps like abandoned landmines?
- How quickly will others use a similar idea for a similar terrorist attack?

[SteveThackery]

Atarov: Li batts are small firebombs and DO explode.

Do you have any video evidence of an actual explosion and not just venting and catching fire?

Yes, I watched a video on the BBC news this morning taken from a shop security camera. The explosion is real, it is not a venting of gas and flames. I'm no expert, but no way could it have been from an AA battery - it was explosives.

[Haenk]

A serious question is why is a factory in Europe manufacturing pagers for a proscribed terrorist organisation?
I suppose it could be a case of not knowing, but clearly the Israelis were aware.

Well, the whole story is cloudy, the hungarian "manufacturer" is stating it is only a "Consulting company". It does not look like they are manufacturing anything at all.
https://24.hu/kulfold/2024/09/18/libanon-hezbollah-izrael-csipogo-szemelyi-hivo-robbanas-budapest-bac-consulting/
However that hungarian company is rather sketchy...
Another detail emerging is the order had been placed last year and the pagers were delivered early this year, so it seems it has been a well planned operation and the timeframe was not as small as I expected.

[linux-works]

I still think that replacing just the batteries with some battery and mostly explosive - and then a power rail watcher that looks for a signature power draw to trigger it was what they did.

it was funny that initial reports blamed the batteries and a pure software bug.  in 10 seconds of thought, that would not make sense at all, yet it was being said many times for the first few hours of the report.

I have to say this was genius. 

(and yes, it was well deserved and I'm happy it happened.  but that's all I'll say on that)

[mikeselectricstuff]

I still think that replacing just the batteries with some battery and mostly explosive - and then a power rail watcher that looks for a signature power draw to trigger it was what they did.

it was funny that initial reports blamed the batteries and a pure software bug.  in 10 seconds of thought, that would not make sense at all, yet it was being said many times for the first few hours of the report.

I have to say this was genius. 

(and yes, it was well deserved and I'm happy it happened.  but that's all I'll say on that)

Agree that battery is a good place to put the explosive, and would make modification quick & easy.
Except batteries get replaced ( though,not very often), and it's hard to get a specific trigger signal to them.
There is a mention of them beeping several times first, so maybe they can do different beep/vibrate patterns in response to transmitted data, which the "battery" could recognise by pattern of current draw.
Maybe they had hacked firmware to do a specific current draw pattern on receipt of a particular message.

[Siwastaja]

it was funny that initial reports blamed the batteries and a pure software bug.  in 10 seconds of thought, that would not make sense at all, yet it was being said many times for the first few hours of the report.

Yeah, this. People assume that batteries just explode, have always been. It's some kind of... batterophobia. I definitely remember this from days before li-ion, like some people were scared of just normal alkaline cells.


In reality of course batteries do not explode, explosives do. Li-ion batteries sometimes burn quite violently but it's still pretty much different from explosion, even in layman language, even more so with technically correct meaning for "explosion".

Triggering li-ion cell failure is also more difficult than people expect. It is almost always impossible to do by just software. It is often difficult to do even with botched BMS design. Cell manufacturing quality control issues and physical damage are the most usual reasons for battery fire. Faulty BMS can increase the odds but it is a totally different thing to have one in hundred fail over years of use (which would be a huge problem for manufacturer) vs. intentionally having 100% success rate in commanding them to explode within some minutes of command.