Planning to purchase a Rigol DS1052E, seeking guidance

[y33t]

Hi all,

I just registered today to ask a question but couldn't help my self reading posts around. I am planning on purchasing a Rigol DS1052E, I read most of the posts related to this device that came up on search and I still have some questions.

1 - 3.5ns min rise time is documented in datasheet, how will the waveform look like when I feed 1ns rising/falling pwm ?
2 - Device supports usbtmc protocol, anyone used it with instrumentation toolbox in Matlab ? How much delay approximately do you think will occur between DS1052E capturing the signal and Matlab ploting the data ? There is no information available on this. I would like to synchronize Matlab and DS1052E, use it as a data acquisition system as well.
3 - Running time ; how much can it operate continuously in hours ? Does it heat ?
4 - Can it be used as a function generator ? Can it output signals that I will set the parameters ?
5 - Since it has FFT, can it perform as a frequency counter as well?
6 - Which platform and language is used to program this device ? I assume there is no IDE/API to achieve this but I would like to implement custom stuff.
7 - Does it have an auto calibration feature ?

I have intermediate assembly and advanced c programming skills and I liked the look (price, lol) of this device. I don't mind if upgrade hack to 100MHz is a company strategy to melt the stock but it sure look attractive.

I know above are a lot of question but would love to hear opinions and recommendations about this product.

Have a nice day!

Yigit

[McMonster]

4. No, it can't.
6. I guess firmware was written in C, but I don't see many modded images around (except for ones hacked for 100 MHz), so I don't think there's any easy way of reprogramming the device itself.
7. Yes.

I haven't used it much since I got it and it's the first digital oscilloscope I ever used, but as a hobbyst I'm absolutely satisfied by what this scope can do.

[Mechatrommer]

1 - 3.5ns min rise time is documented in datasheet, how will the waveform look like when I feed 1ns rising/falling pwm ?
4 - Can it be used as a function generator ? Can it output signals that I will set the parameters ?
5 - Since it has FFT, can it perform as a frequency counter as well?
6 - Which platform and language is used to program this device ? I assume there is no IDE/API to achieve this but I would like to implement custom stuff.
*** - I have intermediate assembly and advanced c programming skills

1) 3.5ns. someone just feed it with 680ps risetime, and its still showing... 3.5ns, 3.3 actually.
4) no. it has cal out 1KHz square signal though. but you cant set the parm, and its also not advisable to use that other than its purpose. someone broke it on his scope.
5) yes it can do FC, its accesible from side menu
6) Windows (i'm not sure about others). it has API.
*** - you should have no problem digesting this... https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1483.0
[edit: i saw the attachment in the link is missing, not sure why maybe latest host transfer or someone delete it dont know... let it be.]

[robrenz]

Why would you buy the DS1052E when you can get the DS1102E for $399usd.  see this post https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=5746.0

[y33t]

There are -very- strict custom regulations in Turkey, I can get it for 399$ + %18 VAT + Shipping which yields to approximately 550$ for me. I can buy  DS1052E from a local dealer for 550$ already. Since DS1052E and DS1102E have identical hardware, it didn't come logical to me to order from a foreign country. Also in case of a malfunction, it is easier for me to contact the local.

There is a 278$ offer for DS1052E online as well, but the dealer didn't look that trustable to me.

[y33t]

4. No, it can't.
6. I guess firmware was written in C, but I don't see many modded images around (except for ones hacked for 100 MHz), so I don't think there's any easy way of reprogramming the device itself.
7. Yes.

I haven't used it much since I got it and it's the first digital oscilloscope I ever used, but as a hobbyst I'm absolutely satisfied by what this scope can do.

 I inspected a little further and I think all the functionality including the graphics are coded in VHDL. That also might be the reason why there are not that many mods around. From my experience I can safely say that reverse engineering a generated bitstream VHDL design is way too much harder to reverse a compiled C binary.

1 - 3.5ns min rise time is documented in datasheet, how will the waveform look like when I feed 1ns rising/falling pwm ?
4 - Can it be used as a function generator ? Can it output signals that I will set the parameters ?
5 - Since it has FFT, can it perform as a frequency counter as well?
6 - Which platform and language is used to program this device ? I assume there is no IDE/API to achieve this but I would like to implement custom stuff.
*** - I have intermediate assembly and advanced c programming skills

1) 3.5ns. someone just feed it with 680ps risetime, and its still showing... 3.5ns, 3.3 actually.
4) no. it has cal out 1KHz square signal though. but you cant set the parm, and its also not advisable to use that other than its purpose. someone broke it on his scope.
5) yes it can do FC, its accesible from side menu
6) Windows (i'm not sure about others). it has API.
*** - you should have no problem digesting this... https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1483.0
[edit: i saw the attachment in the link is missing, not sure why maybe latest host transfer or someone delete it dont know... let it be.]

It wouldn't be hard to implement function generator to this device, is there any post on this ?
I guess it's the company strategy. After all they have a seperate line of product as waveform generators.

[alm]

1 - 3.5ns min rise time is documented in datasheet, how will the waveform look like when I feed 1ns rising/falling pwm ?

sqrt((1 ns)^2 + (3.5 ns)^2)) = 3.6 ns

[saturation]

This is the only question left unanswered.  Good news, no, it doesn't over heat.  You can run it probably indefinitely in room temperature without an issue.  Certainly at least 1 week continuously if not more. 

When I first got it I ran it 24hr x 7 days [ as part of a burn in, trying to fail something in the DSO, and while under warranty], and I used a thermocouple to check its internal temps; the stock noisy fan does work to maintain temp.   The actual temperature is very stable, I think I posted the result on eevblog its in the archives under a thread on changing the Rigol fan.

3 - Running time ; how much can it operate continuously in hours ? Does it heat ?
Have a nice day!

Yigit

[Mechatrommer]

It wouldn't be hard to implement function generator to this device, is there any post on this ?

how? post? no.

sat: i know you are the one who should answer that question.

[alm]

It wouldn't be hard to implement function generator to this device, is there any post on this ?
I guess it's the company strategy. After all they have a seperate line of product as waveform generators.

This seems far-fetched to me. I don't believe the scopes have anything like a high-speed DAC, what part of the signal would be generating the signals?

[saturation]

Thanks mecha.  I think alm said the key issue, a basic scope typically won't have a good DAC, if one at all.

Also, many 'all in one' type devices often have the 'other' devices poor value for price.  Take the Agilent 3000 series with the FG option that Dave recently reviewed [ even with the updated FG firmware].  For $400 you could get a much better FG than what Agilent provides.   Even the capacitance meter in many DMM is 'basic' compared to getting a dedicated one [ which cost often as much as the DMM, if not more.]

It wouldn't be hard to implement function generator to this device, is there any post on this ?

how? post? no.

sat: i know you are the one who should answer that question.

It wouldn't be hard to implement function generator to this device, is there any post on this ?
I guess it's the company strategy. After all they have a seperate line of product as waveform generators.

This seems far-fetched to me. I don't believe the scopes have anything like a high-speed DAC, what part of the signal would be generating the signals?

[y33t]

It wouldn't be hard to implement function generator to this device, is there any post on this ?
I guess it's the company strategy. After all they have a seperate line of product as waveform generators.

This seems far-fetched to me. I don't believe the scopes have anything like a high-speed DAC, what part of the signal would be generating the signals?

I am not talking about a fully functioning high end function generator but it would be nice to an adjustable (duty cycle and frequency) pwm module. There is altera fpga on the device and I don't think whole blocks of the hardware used in the design.

[Mechatrommer]

There is altera fpga on the device and I don't think whole blocks of the hardware used in the design.

you mean like adding code section to it? lets say you managed, where's the output pin? have you studied the hardware?

[y33t]

There is altera fpga on the device and I don't think whole blocks of the hardware used in the design.

you mean like adding code section to it? lets say you managed, where's the output pin? have you studied the hardware?

Yes, like code section.

I studied both altera and xilinix fpga in theory and implementation thus I assumed it wouldn't be that hard but no, I didn't study this device specifically. PWM signal can be directly generated in one available output port of the fpga,  it will not require any sort of analog components. If there are people who is also interested in implementing a custom module to this device,  I would be glad  to contribute and take a seat.

Two possibilities that will keep this from happening ;
1- there are no pins physically available  on the fpga.
2- there is block code/data protection on the fpga.

[ben1066]

Couldn't we use the 40 pin header designed for the logic analyser?

[olsenn]

Don't buy the DS1052E; the DS1102E is now the same price ($399) and doesn't need to be hacked to get the 100MHz bandwidth. Buy it instead

[ben1066]

If you read what he said about customs you'd see why its still prefered.

[wkb]

Hm, I would not particularly like to hack a generator into a highly-sensitive measurement instrument.

 It is easy enough to inject all sorts of nasty noise into the analog side of the box.  I know this is done in the industry, but those boxes (I assume/hope) have been designed from day 1 to do this, so have the necessary shielding and whatnot.

[y33t]

Couldn't we use the 40 pin header designed for the logic analyser?

I had read somewhere that the LA module (daughter board) itself contains a dedicated FPGA. Thus I think there  shouldn't be any analog components between LA pins and the FPGA (core). But this is just a guess, where does the LA input pins actually lead to ?

[Mechatrommer]

Couldn't we use the 40 pin header designed for the logic analyser?

I had read somewhere that the LA module (daughter board) itself contains a dedicated FPGA. Thus I think there  shouldn't be any analog components between LA pins and the FPGA (core). But this is just a guess, where does the LA input pins actually lead to ?

there's thread in another forum (rcgroup iirc) discussing about this. there's another LA head thats connected to LA front panel, and the LA head got circuitry too (protection etc). you try to find it. imo, its better for you to study on how to make the LA module working (instead of try to generate signal out of it, you may want to look at DDS3x25 thread discussion about this fpga based AWG), because i think it already on the software, i pressed the LA button on my ds1052e, it says "no LA module detected" something like that. so if you can make it work, will be a good thing, i willl be willing to help

[alm]

I don't see the point of implementing a basic function generator inside the DS1052E FPGA. You'd basically be using it as an expensive FPGA development board. You'd still have to add an analog output stage (at the very least a buffer to provide some extra ESD protection and output current) and connectors. Might as well grab a cheap FPGA dev board. The only advantage I see to the scope is that you get the controls for free. The downsides (voiding warranty, risk of bricking your scope, FPGA may be protected, may have no free gates, no free pins, tricky software interactions) outweigh the benefits in my opinion.

[y33t]

I don't see the point of implementing a basic function generator inside the DS1052E FPGA. You'd basically be using it as an expensive FPGA development board. You'd still have to add an analog output stage (at the very least a buffer to provide some extra ESD protection and output current) and connectors. Might as well grab a cheap FPGA dev board. The only advantage I see to the scope is that you get the controls for free. The downsides (voiding warranty, risk of bricking your scope, FPGA may be protected, may have no free gates, no free pins, tricky software interactions) outweigh the benefits in my opinion.

You don't have to add any analog stage to generate PWM. I did it even with PIC microcontrollers so will be a piece of cake for the FPGA. You can generate PWM at one pin and can capture it from another pin on an FPGA without any analog stuff. I am not talking about turning the DS1052E to a function generator, what I mention is adding some code at some other block of FPGA. Thus your recommendation about using a cheap FPGA board will actually be expensive to me because I already paid for the hardware with presumably usable space.

[y33t]

Couldn't we use the 40 pin header designed for the logic analyser?

I had read somewhere that the LA module (daughter board) itself contains a dedicated FPGA. Thus I think there  shouldn't be any analog components between LA pins and the FPGA (core). But this is just a guess, where does the LA input pins actually lead to ?

there's thread in another forum (rcgroup iirc) discussing about this. there's another LA head thats connected to LA front panel, and the LA head got circuitry too (protection etc). you try to find it. imo, its better for you to study on how to make the LA module working (instead of try to generate signal out of it, you may want to look at DDS3x25 thread discussion about this fpga based AWG), because i think it already on the software, i pressed the LA button on my ds1052e, it says "no LA module detected" something like that. so if you can make it work, will be a good thing, i willl be willing to help

So you are saying that the DS1052E firmware already contains the code for LA and it just pokes a hardware module to activate it ? If this is the case then this became more interesting    On the other hand, you can't know for sure  that if core pokes for LA hardware to activate the existing code or the actual LA hardware contains the code for it self. Latter sounds more probable then the first to me. I mean if I was the vendor I would keep the relevant software on the daughter board (LA hardware). Will look into DDS3x25 thread once I find it.

Great than that makes two of us, we might make this work if possible. If we brick the device somehow, this is already the best place to be.

ps; my last sentence made me question myself because I will get the device on wednesday and talking about bricking it before I get it 

[Mechatrommer]

Thus your recommendation about using a cheap FPGA board will actually be expensive to me because I already paid for the hardware with presumably usable space.

i hope you dont brick the already paid hardware. no i'm not into bricking my scope and maybe you are right about LA FW in the daughter card. i'll never know. i bought a dev kit for fpga for less than $20, if i want to mess with something, i'll mess with the $20 board. not the $300++ board/device.

Will look into DDS3x25 thread once I find it.

here, good read 23 pages... Review: Hantek DDS 3X25. Anyone own one?

[y33t]

Thus your recommendation about using a cheap FPGA board will actually be expensive to me because I already paid for the hardware with presumably usable space.

i hope you dont brick the already paid hardware. no i'm not into bricking my scope and maybe you are right about LA FW in the daughter card. i'll never know. i bought a dev kit for fpga for less than $20, if i want to mess with something, i'll mess with the $20 board. not the $300++ board/device.

Will look into DDS3x25 thread once I find it.

here, good read 23 pages... Review: Hantek DDS 3X25. Anyone own one?

Thanks for the link, that was some stuff to digest. Guess what ? I also  decided to buy a Hantek DDS3x25 after I read the thread  You have written a code to get over 7.69~7.5MHz sync issue then this means I can port your code to work under Linux  too many good news in such a short period  btw, did you crack DDS3x25 open ?  whats the technology? I am interested in because I would like to have programmable filters like in DDS3005.

I am researching more about LA implementation for DS1052E, will report once done.