PhD in electronics engineering, where, why...

[s.mosfet]

Hi, I'm an italian electronics engineer. I got the bachelor degree, and the next year I'll get the master degree.
Electronics and Physics fascinate me. I'd like to work in the research environment, but i'm not sure about this choice.
In Italy the situation for researchers is not good (see brain drain).
Additionally, in Italy (i don't know if also in other countries) a company sees a PhD like a waste of time, it's not considered as an added value.
I'd like to know where the researcher job is remunerative, and let me know what you advise me to do.

[joelby]

A PhD is mostly useful if you want to become a researcher or get into academia. If you liked the research aspect of your bachelor or masters degree, discuss possible projects with possible supervisors and you'll know if you want to do one or not.

I'm doing a PhD and while I don't particularly want to become an academic, it's a great opportunity because:

• I get paid to work on one project I'm very interested in
• I can do it pretty much any way I want to do it
• Other than research milestones and reporting requirements, I'm pretty much left to my own devices

It's a pretty cool lifestyle, really!

[s.mosfet]

In which university you're are getting the PhD?
Is it in electronics?

[joelby]

I'm studying at the Australian National University. Technically my degree will be in ecology, but the project mostly involves electronics and programming.

[onemilimeter]

Hi, I'm an italian electronics engineer. I got the bachelor degree, and the next year I'll get the master degree.
Electronics and Physics fascinate me. I'd like to work in the research environment, but i'm not sure about this choice.
In Italy the situation for researchers is not good (see brain drain).
Additionally, in Italy (i don't know if also in other countries) a company sees a PhD like a waste of time, it's not considered as an added value.
I'd like to know where the researcher job is remunerative, and let me know what you advise me to do.

I sort of agree with you that a company may see a PhD like a waste of time. For example, the pay offered to a fresh PhD graduate is not much higher than a bachelor graduate. By the way, do you have a specific field which you wish to venture into?

[the_raptor]

The reason Ph.D's aren't worth that much straight off is because all a Ph.D means is that you made a contribution (via a thesis project) to science/engineering/arts in a sub-field of a sub-field. Outside of their thesis area a Ph.D isn't likely to know any more then any random graduate student.

The only way to make big bucks via a Ph.D is to become an expert in that sub-field via continued research and study. Unless you are one of the top academics in your field with lots of grants and public-private partnerships you don't make good money.

A Ph.D can be a downside in the corporate world as many HR folk will see you as overqualified and hence more likely to leave for a better job (even though most people do after 2-3 years).

[onemilimeter]

A Ph.D can be a downside in the corporate world as many HR folk will see you as overqualified and hence more likely to leave for a better job (even though most people do after 2-3 years).

True... my friend who has a PhD degree from a UK university joined Agilent but then left the company after 1~2 years. He told me that staff or senior engineers in the company treated him as nobody...

[Mechatrommer]

True... my friend who has a PhD degree from a UK university joined Agilent but then left the company after 1~2 years. He told me that staff or senior engineers in the company treated him as nobody...

maybe the problem is with himself. maybe he knows nothing except his phd. thats why he felt secluded. he cannot get along with others, who are more into practical expertise. the problem with many people around me is, they feel "big" and live within their egoistic illusion even if they only have a small achievement or higher position. they always like to talk how big they are which in the end separates them from the normal joe's. in the end they are the one who lose, just because of themself. once i worked as supervisor supervising a bunch of "no education barbaric type" of thinking people albeit i have higher edu paper. but when you are willing to lower your "dignity" to their level, eventually... well... you'll get along, so do they.

[Bored@Work]

The value of the PhD is largely in how it was done, not what was done.

Was it something that required tenacity, staying power, concentration, attention to detail, meticulous work, drilling down to the bottom of something, all done over a long period of time (years)? Then the PhD is the prove that the holder of the title can perform his work in that way.

Was it some bullshit subject, the work just performed by copy-n-pasting from the literature, with few own, unoriginal thoughts added for decoration purposes only? Then the PhD is prove that the holder of the title is a joker.

[onemilimeter]

maybe the problem is with himself. maybe he knows nothing except his phd. thats why he felt secluded. he cannot get along with others, who are more into practical expertise. the problem with many people around me is, they feel "big" and live within their egoistic illusion even if they only have a small achievement or higher position. they always like to talk how big they are which in the end separates them from the normal joe's. in the end they are the one who lose, just because of themself. once i worked as supervisor supervising a bunch of "no education barbaric type" of thinking people albeit i have higher edu paper. but when you are willing to lower your "dignity" to their level, eventually... well... you'll get along, so do they.

Totally agree  

[onemilimeter]

The value of the PhD is largely in how it was done, not what was done.

Was it something that required tenacity, staying power, concentration, attention to detail, meticulous work, drilling down to the bottom of something, all done over a long period of time (years)? Then the PhD is the prove that the holder of the title can perform his work in that way.

Was it some bullshit subject, the work just performed by copy-n-pasting from the literature, with few own, unoriginal thoughts added for decoration purposes only? Then the PhD is prove that the holder of the title is a joker.

I'm not trying to offend anyone but that's what a professor in UK said: "A donkey also can get a PhD!"...

[Zad]

Maybe a D.Eng. would be better for you? There aren't many places that offer them though.

[onemilimeter]

Maybe a D.Eng. would be better for you? There aren't many places that offer them though.

D.Eng requires more technical practice than a PhD?

[mkissin]

Depending on what country you are studying in the PhD and the D.Eng may be equivalent degrees, or you may only be able to achieve one of them (as the other isn't offered). There aren't many countries that offer both, and even fewer where you could actually choose which to do (assuming you wanted to come out with an electrical engineering thesis).

For example, here in New Zealand, the PhD is what you'd get after completing a masters level degree but a D.Eng is only awarded to people who have made a significant contribution to the field over time. So it's something you get given, like a knighthood, rather than something you work towards, like a degree.

[Leo Bodnar]

True... my friend who has a PhD degree from a UK university joined Agilent but then left the company after 1~2 years. He told me that staff or senior engineers in the company treated him as nobody...

LOL. What,  they did not address him as Dr. Smith when asking to fetch coffees?

I'd say PhD is scientific research route and electronics is mostly an applied industry route not academia.  You will more likely end up flipping burgers when following academia route.

I must say personally I think that the importance of academic education has been highly exaggerated due to cold war efforts of USA/USSR to overdo each other at whatever cost.
EU has enough scientists for many years to come.  Farmers rejoice!

[scrat]

I'm doing my electronics engineering (electric drives, actually) PhD in Italy, in a small university, into the same field, and with the same tutor I had for my master thesis.
I started at the beginning of 2010, after few years of work. It's very similar to a work, as for the time you spend and so on. Even worse, from some points of view (for example about the $, the grant is quite lower than an average salary).

The reason I came back to "academia" was not I was pursuing some work inside it, and even if it was, there are very little hopes, at least here in Italy. My intention was to learn something more, as I saw how much experience and knowledge in (power) electronics and control there was here, and how many companies came asking for research to be done. I must admit some industries are truely asking for counseling about "development" issues, not real research, but this is actually better for me, in the hope that in the end having worked for industry would matter to the companies where I will seek for work.

I hope I will not "feel big", as Mechatrommer says (there's so much to learn out there!), but I know knowledge can be valuable, at least in the way you can face the new problems.
@Leo: experience is not less valuable than "science", IMO they just have similar dignity: some issues can't be solved only using experience, while some others can't be solved without "science".

[dengorius]

I'm from Italy as well (we're quite a few ) and I should start my PhD in Denmark on August. I think a PhD is a great opportunity in your life. Like somebody said before you can work on something that is usually very up to date, that you (supposedly) really like, get paid in the process and most of the time also get paid to go around the world to attend conferences and workshops. It doesn't get much better than that from my point of view.
As far as I know in most countries (definitely not in Italy) a PhD is seen as a regular job, with an adequate salary. I know of people that have been working for several years in order to build up a resume good enough so that they could apply for a PhD.
Anyways, this said a PhD is probably not *the* best choice if all you care about is working your eight hours, earning big bucks and making a career.

[Leo Bodnar]

Like somebody said before you can work on something that is usually very up to date, that you (supposedly) really like, get paid in the process and most of the time also get paid to go around the world to attend conferences and workshops. It doesn't get much better than that from my point of view

Life of celebrity... You are greatly mistaken.  World is coming back to its senses.  There are just very few truly bright ones who deserve paying for playing around with ideas.  For great majority however the party is over.    

[Lawsen]

I have one friend, who graduated from electrical engineering school at San Jose State that went to San Francisco State for a MA/MSci. in electrical engineering.  He could not find a job and have lots of spare time and live with parents, so why not?  If you wrote a thesis about an electrical device, circuit, or electrical material, then an employer might hire you for your speciality, otherwise, you will wait in line like the rest of us for a job.  A Ph.D or even research experience makes you very specialized, but it will reward you with a job only if that business happens to need your speciality.  A stereo company is not going to need someone who worked as an assistant in a selenium copper compound research place.  Ph.D is a go way to get into all levels of teaching, except children to teen age schools, that require a child development and teaching credential, a different school.  Teaching at a college to university usually best with a Ph.D, than a MA.  Governments in the U.S.A. could not afford to hire teachers with the depleted budget.  If my friend has nothing better to do and has some money, then a MSci. or MA classes are best for him, but not me.  I used to work as a research assistance with selenium copper based compounds for better electrical conductivity.  There was not a commercial value in it to make money, that it was a topic for academia research and study.  Universities usually do a topic that industry have little interest in, because the profit is not assured and working products are unknown.  School can make you go broke, expensive and time consuming venture.  As mentioned by others in this forum, academia have a life style that is not like going to work or experimenting and building an amplifier in your garage or room.  Industry is not solely emphasizing or interested in your Ph.D., but what you can do for them to make a profit and you get a fraction of that.  If you have a Ph.D., great, but you might find your self soldering and plugging things in and answering the telephones, too.  You might find yourself without work as some employers are only interested in years of work and under whom, than your Ph.D. experience.  Do not feel discourage, if you want to try it, then try it.  I do not live in Italy, so I cannot help you.  San Jose State does not grants Ph.D., that you will have to Cal UC Berkeley or Stanford, California. 

Lawsen

[EEVblog]

Remember, you can always leave the PhD off your Resume...

Dave.

[gregariz]

Remember, you can always leave the PhD off your Resume...

Dave.

That's correct and is something I've done on occasion.

There are a host of preconceived ideas out there throughout industry based on individual experience. Usually the perception is that if you have a PhD you are not a practical person or you are not big picture. BTW I usually see this negative perception of big picture leveled at the entire engineering workforce these days, regardless of degree level. I can sympathise to some extent with that. I was unhappy with many of the students and staff in university who used it as a hiding ground but to some extent this is a result of the publish or perish mentality. The truly useful design skills are often not publishable any longer, but you can learn them to some extent "along the way" if you are careful with your topic and supervisor.

Universities really need to change this as often the old-hat unoriginal design skills are just as hard if not harder than the new original publishable work but originality is presently a requirement for the PhD.

I think the bottom line is, as Dave has mentioned in his video's is about passion. If you have a passion for it, the PhD won't really be a burden, and if you are like me you'll tell someone to bugger off if you hear that mentioned.

Based on my own experience, my advice if you want to avoid the stereotypes, you need to work for someone who also has a PhD. To do this I've found I need to be in a rather decent location for a critical mass of electronic activity. So I would expect many of you thinking this way will end up in one of the larger US centers, particularly in CA or TX. Otherwise you need to work for yourself which seems to be what alot of PhD's do when they tire of the corporate mindf**k. So pick your PhD topics wisely.

When I run across a PhD (or any engineer or student) who doesn't own a soldering iron, it scares the crapper out of me... but I've met plenty so I understand the negativity.

[onemilimeter]

Usually the perception is that if you have a PhD you are not a practical person...

I met a PhD candidate several weeks ago. He was in his 3rd year pursuing a PhD degree related to electrical/electronic engineering. He asked how to use a Tektronix TDS2024B. This, however, did not shock me. He then asked how to measure the (floating) induced voltage across the secondary winding of a transformer using the scope. I showed him... Then, he asked why both the probe signal tip and the GND tip must be used and placed across the secondary winding terminals to measure the voltage... I was 

[Mechatrommer]

thats the very thing that made the stereotype gregariz mentioned above. usually this type of people are bookworm who when finished their degree directly attend their phd, with no hands on experience. the stereotype for parents (who are not involved in engineering) is that you have to finish your study as high as you can first, then later go to work.

[joelby]

Bear in mind that undergraduate courses aren't always very practical, and they can vary a lot from university to university. I did some VHDL classes over ten years ago and we never got to see actual FPGAs. An RF design class went into the mathematics behind things like oscillators and we analysed model circuits, but there are practical gaps between this theory and actually building working circuits, so when I needed to do some actual RF design a few years later, I was stumped by my course notes. These were mostly deficiencies in these courses rather than problems with universities in general.

Part of the PhD process is about learning new skills with which to do research and in my experience it's rare that graduate students will start out know a fraction of what they need to know, unless they've worked in the area for some time. I think you'll find similar things in other fields - one a genetics forum somewhere there are probably people lamenting that third year PhD students don't know how to run PCRs.

On the other hand, I do agree that it's unfortunate that people will study any field at all without having a hobby-style passion and interest for it.

[gregariz]

Usually the perception is that if you have a PhD you are not a practical person...

I met a PhD candidate several weeks ago. He was in his 3rd year pursuing a PhD degree related to electrical/electronic engineering. He asked how to use a Tektronix TDS2024B. This, however, did not shock me. He then asked how to measure the (floating) induced voltage across the secondary winding of a transformer using the scope. I showed him... Then, he asked why both the probe signal tip and the GND tip must be used and placed across the secondary winding terminals to measure the voltage... I was 

Unfortunately the reality is that as you move up the degree ladder you do not find a higher proportion of either passionate or entrepreneurial types. These types of personalities seem to me to be independent of degree level. I've known just as many technicians who tinker at home as I have PhD's who do the same. For many the PhD was just used as an alternative to put off work in hopes of a better job market later down the road that often didn't materialize. Or for people who just wanted the fairly free lifestyle as found in universities and wanted to stay there, before realizing their were not enough academic jobs to go around.

So when you look at onemilimeter's statement I would be disappointed that a graduate at any degree level couldn't use a scope/cro or figure out how to make a voltage measurement - its just that it becomes a bit more ridiculous at the PhD level.

But there are diamonds in the ruff amongst all degree levels including the PhD level. I think that's the point. I always make a point to ask new engineers what their hobby's and interests are and this usually gives me some clues.