New High-Tech Farm Equipment Is a Nightmare for Farmers

[Galenbo]

Perhaps you mean "the government should step out".

+1 for this, in my field of experience.

[Galenbo]

Modern machinery is sooooo much more efficient than that available 20+ years ago.

1. Show Numbers
2. For the guy that buys it new, uses ist 100% all the time, has a big all inclusive service contract and a few years warranty.
Change any of the factors and you can easyly drop below things that operated in 1995.

That described lost 2 days waiting for service and/or parts is a small price to pay for the benefits of technology.

"wanting technology" isn't the goal for these guys.
But 1995 machinery sometimes stops operating too, parts can take 2 days too.

Sir, shall we check for latest engine FW?
Connect phone to laptop, download and install FW.......
10 % fuel saving

Serious? Are you even real?

Look forward or be left behind.

Definition needed about what is meant by "forward", and the conditions.
I guess growgrowgrow newnewnew biggerbiggerbigger, somethimes a good recipe for a bankrupt.

[rollatorwieltje]

100 years ago they said the same when steam engines replaced the horse. Then the same when internal combustion replaced steam. Now the same when electronics replace pure mechanical solutions.

While the farmer is out swearing at his broken tractor, in the background his farm is still running fully automated. Cows are being milked and fed by robots, barn is kept clean by a robot and the service guy is on his way to fix the tractor. Few hours later the tractor is fixed and blasting down the field mowing 9 meters wide in a single pass, dead straight on GPS and automatically avoiding debris and bird nests at stupid speed. Next week the farmer is going on holiday, while the farm is being run by his neighbor and that intern.

In other words, put things in perspective. There are always going to be unreliable pieces of machinery, just like 30 years ago. Just like 100 years ago. But overall things have gotten significantly better for the farmer.

[Derick Freese]

The difference is that now it requires a tech to come out to repair your equipment in a few days.  Before, the farmer could get it working for now and fix it later.  Sometimes, farmers don't have that 2 days, they need to harvest the crop NOW.  It happens every few years here in Florida when we have lots of rain. 

Losing your entire crop investment over not being able to get a tech to fix your tractor for a couple of days is a steep price to pay for automation.

[Tallie]

100 years ago they said the same when steam engines replaced the horse. Then the same when internal combustion replaced steam. Now the same when electronics replace pure mechanical solutions.

While the farmer is out swearing at his broken tractor, in the background his farm is still running fully automated. Cows are being milked and fed by robots, barn is kept clean by a robot and the service guy is on his way to fix the tractor. Few hours later the tractor is fixed and blasting down the field mowing 9 meters wide in a single pass, dead straight on GPS and automatically avoiding debris and bird nests at stupid speed. Next week the farmer is going on holiday, while the farm is being run by his neighbor and that intern.

In other words, put things in perspective. There are always going to be unreliable pieces of machinery, just like 30 years ago. Just like 100 years ago. But overall things have gotten significantly better for the farmer.

This is akin to going back to the horse... when it dies, get a new one. No use in working on it. Same direction modern cars are moving...

[MadScientist]

exact same issues with marine engines at sea.  its one thing to break down on land, quite another at sea

[Zero999]

Even though the advantages of modern technology are obvious, I can see why it's frustrating for the farmers. Copyright law was never designed to be abused like this. The government should step in.

 Not going to happen unless the government offers liability protection for the OEMs and that is just not going to happen. One needs to live in the world as it is, not as one might like it to be.

The government should enforce open standards and make it illegal for a vendor to lock you into service contracts with them.

100 years ago they said the same when steam engines replaced the horse. Then the same when internal combustion replaced steam. Now the same when electronics replace pure mechanical solutions.

While the farmer is out swearing at his broken tractor, in the background his farm is still running fully automated. Cows are being milked and fed by robots, barn is kept clean by a robot and the service guy is on his way to fix the tractor. Few hours later the tractor is fixed and blasting down the field mowing 9 meters wide in a single pass, dead straight on GPS and automatically avoiding debris and bird nests at stupid speed. Next week the farmer is going on holiday, while the farm is being run by his neighbor and that intern.

In other words, put things in perspective. There are always going to be unreliable pieces of machinery, just like 30 years ago. Just like 100 years ago. But overall things have gotten significantly better for the farmer.

No this is totally different to steam replacing horses. A steam engine could be maintained by the farmer and the same was true for the combustion engine. The difference is not electronics but the proprietary software required to drive the electronics which only the manufacturer has the key for. It it were all open standards and the farmers were able to diagnose faults by connecting a USB cable to their laptop, running software which was either freely available of included with the machinery then it would be good but it's not. The farmers are losing control of their own hardware because they don't own the firmware.

[LabSpokane]

100 years ago they said the same when steam engines replaced the horse. Then the same when internal combustion replaced steam. Now the same when electronics replace pure mechanical solutions.

While the farmer is out swearing at his broken tractor, in the background his farm is still running fully automated. Cows are being milked and fed by robots, barn is kept clean by a robot and the service guy is on his way to fix the tractor. Few hours later the tractor is fixed and blasting down the field mowing 9 meters wide in a single pass, dead straight on GPS and automatically avoiding debris and bird nests at stupid speed. Next week the farmer is going on holiday, while the farm is being run by his neighbor and that intern.

In other words, put things in perspective. There are always going to be unreliable pieces of machinery, just like 30 years ago. Just like 100 years ago. But overall things have gotten significantly better for the farmer.

The difference is the farmer that hacks his tractor can be put in prison for it.  THAT is the problem.

And if you doubt how aggressively US agribusiness protects its IP, Google up Monsanto's actions with respect to "Roundup Ready" crops. Agribusiness wrote the book on lobbying in America.

The DMCA creates a bizarre distinction between moving an electron via a mechanical switch and doing the same on a large scale via a microcontroller.  The former is open sourced at the local tractor supply house. The latter gets one up to a $1M fine and 10 years in Club Fed.

[pickle9000]

When I see equipment mods they are in the form of tricking sensors and not modifying software. Playing around with OEM software is really taking a chance. Tricking a sensor is another story and I see no problem with that.

[LabSpokane]

When I see equipment mods they are in the form of tricking sensors and not modifying software. Playing around with OEM software is really taking a chance. Tricking a sensor is another story and I see no problem with that.

It's not a problem until:

1) You're American
4.3. The sensor trick gets redefined as a man-in-the-middle attack and end up in violation of the DMCA.

US agribusiness has a very overt objective of owning everything except the costs and risk. It's the new sharecropping. They have managed to use IP law to turn what has always been a risk-laden business into a can't lose business.

[pickle9000]

When I see equipment mods they are in the form of tricking sensors and not modifying software. Playing around with OEM software is really taking a chance. Tricking a sensor is another story and I see no problem with that.

It's not a problem until:

1) You're American
4.3. The sensor trick gets redefined as a man-in-the-middle attack and end up in violation of the DMCA.

US agribusiness has a very overt objective of owning everything except the costs and risk. It's the new sharecropping. They have managed to use IP law to turn what has always been a risk-laden business into a can't lose business.

I can't say that I've had to deal directly with the American system. That is probably for the best. I do think as a general rule every farmer wants the best gear on the market. Of course if they did they every mid and small farm would be out of cash just purchasing one or two bit's of high end gear. It's a very tricky business one hiccup and your gone or starting over. 

[cdev]

There is a push in the US now to make it mandatory for companies to provide service manuals to customers to prevent intentional planned obsolescence..

https://www.digitalrighttorepair.org/

[pickle9000]

There is a push in the US now to make it mandatory for companies to provide service manuals to customers to prevent intentional planned obsolescence..

https://www.digitalrighttorepair.org/

The only thing I can think of that would come close to this is the California emissions stuff (obd2). Good luck to them but that will be a massive uphill battle.

[rollatorwieltje]

100 years ago they said the same when steam engines replaced the horse. Then the same when internal combustion replaced steam. Now the same when electronics replace pure mechanical solutions.

While the farmer is out swearing at his broken tractor, in the background his farm is still running fully automated. Cows are being milked and fed by robots, barn is kept clean by a robot and the service guy is on his way to fix the tractor. Few hours later the tractor is fixed and blasting down the field mowing 9 meters wide in a single pass, dead straight on GPS and automatically avoiding debris and bird nests at stupid speed. Next week the farmer is going on holiday, while the farm is being run by his neighbor and that intern.

In other words, put things in perspective. There are always going to be unreliable pieces of machinery, just like 30 years ago. Just like 100 years ago. But overall things have gotten significantly better for the farmer.

The difference is the farmer that hacks his tractor can be put in prison for it.  THAT is the problem.

And if you doubt how aggressively US agribusiness protects its IP, Google up Monsanto's actions with respect to "Roundup Ready" crops. Agribusiness wrote the book on lobbying in America.

The DMCA creates a bizarre distinction between moving an electron via a mechanical switch and doing the same on a large scale via a microcontroller.  The former is open sourced at the local tractor supply house. The latter gets one up to a $1M fine and 10 years in Club Fed.

So the title of the article should be "lawmakers operating in favor of big money is a problem for the consumer". This isn't really specific to farms, this will happen with every piece of consumer good.

[wagon]

I work on a lot of machinery,  much of it ag. I find a lot of problems are age-old things like bad connections!   Also,  I've found that quite often the factory trained dealer guys don't really know how to fix it!   I found a wiring fault in a harvester,  for example,  that had been there since new.

[Galenbo]

There is a push in the US now to make it mandatory for companies to provide service manuals to customers to prevent intentional planned obsolescence..

https://www.digitalrighttorepair.org/

I am no big multimillion buyer, but rencently needed to buy 2 boom lifts.
Order of decision points importance:

1. Open manuals, parts, drawings, elec wiring diagrams, direct on internet, download Pdf. Please, it's (was) 2012.
2. Known proven brand.
3. Distributor <100km away.
4. Company that has this as main activity (no rebrands)

It became Genie Z34/22. Type the serial nr. online and all you need is visible.

In the very big contrast, try this with Bobcat. You can purchase a printed book, not even a legal cd.
And there are brands that even don't distribute plans. Isn't that the case with Caterpillar?

[Galenbo]

...  Also,  I've found that quite often the factory trained dealer guys don't really know how to fix it!   I found a wiring fault in a harvester,  for example,  that had been there since new.

Problem is often to get to know what the name of the guy is that, at the moment, the one is that gets it running.
At most companies there is 1/5 of the debug technicians that knows the job. Most customers ask explicitly for them.

I know personally of minimum one dealer that refused to distribute the previous productionline of telescopic handlers of Cat.
Too much trouble, too much waste of time.
The new series "seems" to be better, but the whole market looks and waits.

[woodchips]

Fascinating, must apply to just about any modern machine, tractor or lathe.

I tried to find information on Canbus some years ago, nothing, a closed system. Is this still the case?

Not going to improve, give up now?

[cdev]

During the 1930s, 1940s the US had the best public transportation system in the world, but National City Lines, a company with funding from General Motors, Firestone Tire, Standard Oil of California and Phillips Petroleum, bought up hundreds of beloved public urban mass transit systems to privatize them.

 The much beloved and energy efficient electric light rail trains occupied tracks which GM felt were blocking the full realization of their vision for the automobile, oil and tire industries. As the saying goes, "What's good for GM is Good for America" so those hundreds of light rail systems were torn up leading to vast increases in the purchasing of automobiles. After all, people had to get to work. Lots of people could not afford cars, however. They rode the new "modern" deisel buses, which unlike the public transit systems were segregated. On December 1, 1955, in Montgomery, Alabama, Parks refused to obey bus driver James F. Blake's order to give up her seat in the colored section to a white passenger, after the white section was filled.

Gradually, ridership fell on the diesel buses and many lines were discontinued due to lack of ridership.  The rest is history.

[nixfu]

>During the 1930s, 1940s the US had the best public transportation system in the world, but National City Lines, a company with funding from General
> Motors, Firestone Tire, Standard Oil of California and Phillips Petroleum, bought up hundreds of beloved public urban mass transit systems to privatize them.

My little midwestern town had a fantastic trolley and urban train system, as well as a very broad bus system until the 1950s.  Its all gone now.

[pickle9000]

So here is a bit of gear for you the Fairmont MKIII Tamper still used, designed in the 70's and the original used two chart tables, with optical pickup and a roll of pcb layout tape to set the tamping line.

A tamper is a machine that measures track geometry and allows the user to define track placement (smooths out track). The first computer version of this machine had a clone xt bolted inside the cab and ran 5.25 floppies. 286 and 386 variants are still in service today. They are cheap to run and do an OK job. OK they won't do high speed track but that's not where they are used. Every nut and bolt is known.

   

Here is a Mark VI and other than size does the same job (it is faster) I think they are just under a million bucks for a single. It does have a very modern computer system.

[pickle9000]

Ooops, I don't think the MKVI can do high speed track either, for that get a machine from Europe.

[SeanB]

Here a lot of that is a foreman, 30 workers and a few trucks for equipment, plus a tipper with gravel ballast. Not as fast, but cheaper to operate, plus they also check the line and repair signals, cut brush and such.

[pickle9000]

Here a lot of that is a foreman, 30 workers and a few trucks for equipment, plus a tipper with gravel ballast. Not as fast, but cheaper to operate, plus they also check the line and repair signals, cut brush and such.

99% of track here is continuously welded rail (cwr) these machine came into being because of that. A rail section is as long as a train (500 meters or so) and welded to the next using a butt welder (that is a very impressive machine) or thermite. This produces massive stress in the rail and that's the main use for a tamper. The job is mainly one of maintenance even replacing one tie will warrant the machine making a visit.

The older machine (MKIII) can have a complete computer failure and still tamp a perfectly straight line, or follow a laser 2km away. Curves and supers are tamped by introducing an error into the system. A pretty neat way of doing it. The mechanism consists of a projector (chopper motor for pulsing), IR pickup and a shadowboard in the middle. The shadowboard is held by a 3 foot 24v actuator with a 10 turn precision pot for position. If you look at the machine you will see the black box with flashlight end (projector) on the roller way out in front on the dolly. Curve is determined by the shadowboard pot value. Super simple and still on the most modern variants.

[SeanB]

A lot of the high speed rail is welded, but almost all the low speed is fishplated, especially in stations on sidelines, so maintenance is easier. You have speed limits in any case there for the platforms, a train going past at 120kph is going to clean the platform of moveable objects like people.