Neighbours children driving me mad!

[Electro Detective]

Shoe box housing ticks a lot of... boxes 

positives which are quickly forgotten once the upstairs/downstairs/adjacent NOISE or random intermittent high / low racket begins   


Sell up and get out, it won't get any better if it's bad already,
and you never know who the next 'nice friendly family' neighbours moving in will be 
pray it's not a noob drummer or deaf headfkt DJ 

Buy a decent -separated- property further out near a train or bus station, or advertise or look up local car or helicopter pooling


Sleep deprivation is one level below cancer
or trusting a $20 meter

[BrianHG]

I do not think the OP can use dirt.  The ceiling is hard to deal with and the false ceiling is probably his best advice.  Some products used in walls however is a drywall product that has a rubber type compound between layers.

Your wall comment has made me come up with an interesting point, drummerdimitri, before you spend 3K$ on the ceiling, have you done any measurements of the audible sound coming off of the ceiling and connected walls and the floor?  You might be spending money and only eliminating 25% of the sound while the wall still reverberate with just as much sound.

[tooki]

Tenants in Switzerland get a legal right to buy their apartments as condos?

No.

[Electro Detective]

What f***heads buy a shoe box with growing kids anyway ? 

There's the problem, dumbass parents that grew up on big suburban properties their parents busted ass in crappy jobs to pay off,

now living in a hipster lifestyle shoebox, with little more than poodle space for the kids to roam and play   

Obviously the local council do not gas about this stuff, as long as their ratass developer mates give them kickbacks   

[james_s]

Not everyone has much choice. I'm fortunate to have bought a proper house years ago when it was within the realm of being affordable. If I had to start out today there's no way I could possibly get a foothold anywhere near this area. A lot of people live in the big cities because that's where most of the jobs are, and commuting is a nightmare in such a densely populated area.

[Electro Detective]

There's always a better option if choice is limited


These people that want their cake and eat it all, aren't doing their kids or nuked nap neighbour OP drummerdimitri any favours 

Shoebox housing is geared at or convenient for working single people or couples and easy dollars for unscrupulous developers and lazy investards

It's not an ideal habitat for young/starter families that are bound to upset the balance of noise, and infringe upon surrounding occupants right to some freakin peace and quiet -SOMETIME- in the day or night 

i.e. kids are 24/7 motion and noise machines, end of story...
 

People should think hard about this stuff before planning to move into a shoebox and or bonking without rubbers
and ask themselves if their 'preferred' jobs have higher priority than their childrens' home environment,

and keeping it real with their neighbours, who are always in closer proximity than relatives and friends are,
and very handy people to be in good with, in case you need assistance


@ drummerdimitri: sell up and get out of there mate    

even if the kids shut up eventually, the parent tards will yield to more consumer dumbassery and buy a yelping, howling, bored DOG   

...and then you will know what real sleep deprivation hell is 

[Mr. Scram]

Not everyone has much choice. I'm fortunate to have bought a proper house years ago when it was within the realm of being affordable. If I had to start out today there's no way I could possibly get a foothold anywhere near this area. A lot of people live in the big cities because that's where most of the jobs are, and commuting is a nightmare in such a densely populated area.

People in this thread seem to forget that "shoebox housing" is the only viable option for a lot of people in many of the more developed parts of the world. A single house, especially one with a yard, is often a pipe dream. Even in parts where affordable housing is available, this tends to be limited to the more rural areas. Go anywhere near the areas where actual jobs tend to be and prices skyrocket into the realm of dreams again.

It's hardly realistic to expect everyone with a child or dog to sequester themselves from the real world.

[Brumby]

Or that someone might move in as a single person...

... then get married.

... then have kids.  (kiss goodbye to your "spare" cash)

[Rbastler]

Just never get married and have children and you can buy yourself some piece of quietness because of the extra cash. Choose wisley. After that you can't return.
Feels like a very important choice in a video game...

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

[mtdoc]

Again, parents can't control whether the kids cry during the night, but at least they should be able to keep the kids in bed, not jumping on the floor, during night time.

The OP was complaining about the kids being up at 6:20 am playing. That is not night time. Otherwise good post.

I can say from first hand experience that if a young child wants to be up early in the AM playing - there is nothing you can do short of immoral and/or illegal actions to stop it.  My oldest son used to get up at 5:30am ready to go every day.  My wife an I are both physicians who sometimes have to work long hours and must be up in the middle of the night.  We treasure our sleep as much as anyone and I do not get up early unless I have to. (Fortunately my son grew out of that habit)

People who live in dwellings which share a wall, floor or ceiling with another dwelling and who expect their neighbors to eliminate all noise from normal activities of daily living (that includes playing children if present) during usual waking hours need to grow up and get over it.  Mature adult behavior means having a reasonable discussion with neighbors to see if there are ways to mitigate the sounds but other than that it's learn to live with it or move.

[ez24]

Concrete rebar structure should be able to dampen the high frequency noise by quite a margin.

When I lived in Taiwan, all the places I lived had concrete and rebar between floors.  All the places I have lived in the US have not.  Since the OP posted this, I assume he does not. So the Chinese know how to live together.

[ez24]

Then how high rises are built in US? You can't just stack wooden house to 10+ floors.

In Taiwan, the highest floor I lived on was the 5th.  In the US it has been the second.  Do we know what level the OP lives on? 

But if I have to move, I will certainty look into concrete floors.  So thank you for bringing this up.  If I had to make a guess, I would say anything over 5 in the US will have concrete.  Good question.

[paulca]

When I lived in Taiwan, all the places I lived had concrete and rebar between floors.  All the places I have lived in the US have not.  Since the OP posted this, I assume he does not. So the Chinese know how to live together.

Then how high rises are built in US? You can't just stack wooden house to 10+ floors.

Based on US building codes, I would not be surprised.

"Waaaaahhh!  Our house blew away in a storm!"

"Please find and read the story of the three little piggies."

Currently it's hoffing a gale of about 60-80mph here.  I'm not the slightest bit worried even if it tops over a 100mph as my house is built of brick, block, plaster and heavy slate roof.  It's nice in the worse weather to listen to the roof click and crack while lying toasty warm in bed.

The flip side is our houses cost a hell of a lot more, but in comparison we have generally higher wages, bigger mortgages and better employment rights/assurances.

[woody]

You can't just stack wooden house to 10+ floors.

O yes, you can:

http://www.teamv.nl/en/project/haut/

Foundation is concrete, the rest is wood. Remains to be seen how solid it will be 

[tooki]

Forum member Electro Detective has no idea how real life works.

You're just figuring this out now? I blocked him ages ago, got tired of his incoherent rambling...

[Cerebus]

You can't just stack wooden house to 10+ floors.

O yes, you can:

http://www.teamv.nl/en/project/haut/

Foundation is concrete, the rest is wood. Remains to be seen how solid it will be 

Wood is often underestimated as an engineering material. Strong in tension and compression, tough, great strength to weight ratio and surprisingly long lived. Up the road from me is Henry VIII's hunting lodge, built of timber in 1543, and still tough enough that visitors can safely have unrestricted access to the interior. By comparison down the road from me aren't concrete tower blocks built in the 1960s, "aren't" because they became so unsafe, so quickly, that they have been demolished. China and Japan have some very old, tall wooden buildings still extant but I'm too ignorant to be able to enumerate any good examples.

[paulca]

Everytime I read the title of this thread I can't help but think:

"You will end up mad anyway if you live long enough, just embrace it and consider yourself ahead of the game."

[Electro Detective]

Forum member Electro Detective has no idea how real life works. With limited money, you can choose convenience, silence and large space. Pick two.
And WTF is with shoe box? That's the only viable solution if you want to live in downtown. Not everyone has the luxury of not having to work strictly 8~5, and if you have to work 8~5, you have to live close to your work place.
And not all countries are like Australia where population density is low. The Chinese town I grew up has 7 million population and the diameter of the downtown is only 10 kilometers, and over half of the population live inside downtown area.
Don't ask why, our culture just likes to flock and centralize. Do the math, how is it possible to allow everyone to live in their own house?

There's just not enough land to house the population besides to build taller buildings.

You guys will have to go easy on the bonking before you run out of space, if you haven't already.
The original Blade Runner is a great movie, but I wouldn't want to live in a dark reality like that, which by your descriptive comment is not too far away. 

and I'm very familiar with how 'real life' works, and shoe box housing bringing up a young family isn't it   

It's not a 'life' when you can't get sufficient sleep because the neighbours want to live in a shoebox complex with their trapped bored kids and pets making a racket

If it was me in OP drummerdimitris shoes, the neighbours would get a good solid helping of cranked up 1980s ROCK and 60s Rat Pack and Betty Hutton helpings in retaliation,

as I'm not cruel enough to hit them with torturous metal, rap, trance, Autotuned drivel and other noise, masquerading as 'modern music'     

As for the noise, kids crying is not that bad, same as dogs barking.

'Not that bad..'   Obviously you haven't done any serious shift work and suffered broken sleep effects,
with a gradual decline in health, energy and concentration levels

Forum member Electro Detective has no idea how real life works.

You're just figuring this out now? I blocked him ages ago, got tired of his incoherent rambling...

Yeah, thanks...I'm losing lots of sleep over that decision       [   ]

[f5r5e5d]

http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/ looks like worthwhile info

the rec for a suspended ceiling with stiff wire to the offending floor above seems wrong for isolating low frequency sound transmission

I believe there are various sound isolating suspension devices

with 30 cm to work with and 25 m^2 you might be able to build a completely separate wood joist/box beam ceiling not connected at all to the floor above, just attached to your walls

then the Drywall Furring Channel + Resilient Soundproofing Clips supporting the multi layer drywall and Green Glue damping material

[Electro Detective]

Whatever the sound proofing additions are, better make sure the stuff is fire resistant

and have a plan in place and rehearsed to get the hell out of shoebox hell if it goes up, as they sometimes do 

Tip for shoeboxers that think they already have enough to think about: 
Have a bright coloured easy to find suitcase always at the ready with long fire resistant ropes, gloves, breathing masks, basic SHTF tools and anything else you can think of to fit in

You may never use it, but if the day ever comes and the rescue crews can't make it to you, you have a choice to make a go of it,
or sit there praying for salvation and roast, or jump to your peril

Don't rule out earthquakes and floods either, be prepared if you're going to reside in condensed stacked developer and investard profit boxes


There's a reason developers and investards live in spacious mansions on huge allotments,
ask them if they would ever downsize to one of their shoeboxes   

[paulca]

Electro Detective...

Are your really Sheldon Cooper in disguise?

[cdev]

Whatever you do, think it through, and make sure its not unsafe to do. In particular, fully investigate any soundproofing material you use for fire safety and potential ill effects to health. That said, sound proofing material can be had that is quite effective at deadening sound. The point made earlier about much of the sound actually being conducted through walls is important, though. That may be the case. Also, I would ask them if they would get a thin rubber pad to go beneath their carpets. (they do have them, hopefully?)

Good luck!

It really sucks moving. Make the best of the situation if you possibly can.

[Electro Detective]

You can throw a lot of good cash at soundproofing, and achieve little success on low frequency impulse thumping,

which little ankle biters specialize in producing consistently 


Which now brings us to the last resort of which powerful sleeping drugs to pop...



assuming OP hasn't booked a furniture moving truck yet   

[imidis]

I want to know what the results were?

I had neighbor troubles and what I decided was - if I go over and knock on their door when they bug me and be reasonable they will be more respectful and try to be reasonable in return. It worked for me so far. Now that they know I will go over there.

[Beamin]

Anyway... getting back on topic.

Serious question .... What would the issues be in producing a noise cancelling ceiling?

We've done it with headphones for decades.

I've always assumed that the problem is down to spatial phase differences.

With noise cancelling headphones, the location of the microphone relative to the listener's ear is known, and so relevant anti-phase can be implemented. As soon as the relative location of the microphone and the ear isn't known, all bets are off. You'll be able to cancel for one ear at one location, but not multiple ears, or a moving ear.

It also gets harder the higher the frequency as the wavelengths shorten, which is why even noise cancelling headphones are better at attenuating lower frequencies.

When I was a kid I wanted t invent a lawn mower with speakers that produce the noise of it 180' out of phase. Assuming you have a lawn mower that made a single frequency sinewave this would not work? It would be double loud or silent as you moved around? I remember hooking up speakers in reverse and it made strange effects lowing the sound quality when they were placed in opposite corners not silence.

You need to get another set of neighbors with children 180's out of phase with the problem kids problem solved.